87 Winchester clones

[1972]

Okay. I am NOT looking for anybody to bash anything here.  Just want to get some opinions and advice.

I REALLY like the looks of the Winchester 87 lever action clones.  Really neat guns, especially for CAS.  Got the look and the feel.

Unfortunately, I’ve heard they have more than their share of mechanical issues and failures.  Can anybody offer any advice on this?  I don’t mind the odd problem, they all have that, but are these really lemons – or just need some tuning.

Sure are appropriate looking shotguns for CAS.  Would sure like to get one tuned up and use it.  Very cool looking.

[Pettifogger]

At this point it is "clone".  The only one still on the market is the Chiappa.  Very good quality, but pricey.  In the $1000.00 range.  You can still find the IAC/Norinco Chicom models used, but you don't see them all that often anymore.  The early ones had a lot of mechanical and QC problems.  You can go to Coyote Caps website and he has a list of the major problems and fixes.  Generally if you get one with an 05 or later production date they are pretty good.  The only other one was the one very briefly imported by Century Arms a few months ago.  Very sketchy QC.  Seems like they brought in one batch and there has been no indication of if or when they might bring in another batch.  You can also look for an original Winchester.  They can be found for less than $1000.00 and are better built than any of the reproductions.  If I were looking for one right now, I would bite the bullet and spend the money and get a Chiappa.

[1972]

Thanks Pettifogger.  I appreciate the advice.  I'll see what I can find from Chiappa.  Have to find a Dealer up here in Canada.

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[harleydavis]

I have one of the later IAC manufactured '87s. It has function very well for me, right out of the box with no tuning required. It is extremely accurate for clay birds and I have never been that good of a bird shooter. It functions well with Winchester AA factory loads, apparently other loads/hulls don't work as well.  The last empty does not clear the action and you would need to sweep it off in competition, again, seems to be typical of the clones. I have not used mine in competition yet, but I will someday. The ones I have seen on the firing line, even when functioning well, are certainly not a speed machine. Even with good functioning ones, they do seem to malfunction at least once during a day of competition, I don't know if those shooters had IAC or Chiappas nor if they had any tuning/modifications done. You do need to give a good solid stroke to the lever, a half hearted lever stroke will not get the job done. Mine does not have the modification done but by learning the correct position of the elevator, I can drop one into the magazine well and one into the chamber and it seems to work pretty good that way. Basically the Coyote Cap mod does the same thing from my understanding. IMHO, a good double barrel shotgun will be faster in competition, BUT, the '87 gets all sorts of style points!!!

[1972]

Thanks Harley.  I beleive you are correct about the modifications.  Apparently even Chiappa has done some work on their design and they offer one that has been modified for CAS shooting, and some of the gunsmiths who specialize in them offer some tune up work beyond that that really slicks them up.  And to be honest about it I don't really care if it's the "fastest" because I certainly will not be.  The only person I intend to compete against will be myself, just to see if I can continue to get a bit better.  To me it's all about just being there - and the 87 (as you say) sure looks good.   

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Hi,

I have a Coyote Cap/Norinco '87, and my main problem seems to be self-induced ... I also own a Codymatic '73 Winchester/Uberti Carbine.

I just realized that if I shot the Codymatic first, the short stroke and effortless action of this rifle would give me an expectation that the style would continue on the shotgun ... but the answer is 'Not really.'

So this season I will shoot the shotgun first ... and risk the Codymatic instead ...

All the time repeating the mantra, 'Alacrity, Vim and Vigor!'

TTFN,

[Bibbyman]

I just bought a Century Arms PW87 yesterday.   Overall,  it's better than I expected from all the talk.   But I've not shot it yet.  Temperatures in the teens and 40mph winds make going outside an only if you have to situation. 

I've watched a series of 8 YouTube videos made by a guy with the channel name 243WW that shows sticking up the action.  Mostly a lot of polishing, deburring, and cleaning out any fouling chips.  The then did some reprofiling of the extractors and carriers. He then had some feeding proglems and made three more videos kind of backtracking some of his reprofilling work.  He quoted Coyote Cap a number of times. 

Has anyone seen this video series and have an opinion as to good or bad instructions? 

I may shoot black powder loads in this gun.  Cleaning should be straight forward. Are there any tips unique to the design that need attention?

[Cap'n Redneck]

As the owner & user of a Norinco 1887 "Cowboy" in 12ga. I'd like to clarify the loading techniques:

1. The normal way of loading an un-modified 1887 is to drop the first round into the magazine well and then start the second round into the chamber.

2. A modified 1887 (called "Drop-Two"-modification or "Fast Load"-modification) involves blocking the cartridgelifter from dropping all the way down.  Then two rounds can be dropped into the magazine well with the uppermost round lined up with the chamber.  This eliminates the need to start the second (uppermost) round into the chamber.

I had the modification done to mine and found that it worked tolerably well with factoryloaded trap-ammo.
Not-so-well with re-loaded (w/blackpowder) plastic shells.

I have since turned to shooting blackpowder loaded brass shells (CBC/MagTech) loading them according to #1 above.
I do not roll-crimp the shells, but use a 10ga. "over-powder cardwad" inplace of the usual thin 11ga. over-shot cardwad.  With this extra-thick and over-sized cardwad pressed on top of the shotcolumn I have no need to glue the over-shot card inplace.
For the other loading components I use the 11ga. size, as the 12ga. brass shells have thinner walls than paper or plastic shells.

Other recomended modifications include polishing any sharp edges off the chamber entrance, and cutting the buttstock to fit your length-of-pull, as you cannot "short-stroke" this mechanism...
I did have problems with weak extractor springs at a CAS-match, and did a "field-repair" by dropping a SPENT small-pistol primer into the bottom of each extractor-spring cavity.

[Bibbyman]

Did you find that star crimped loads hang up on extraction?   We've only shot it about a dozen times with Remington STS factory loads. On extraction,  at least 1/8" of the case mouth is still in the chamber.   The right extractor is still holding onto the rim. The hull has to be picked out.   Looks like the action is not long enough to accommodate the open star crimp.

Should the kicker on the carrier kick the back of the hull out first?  Or should there be enough upward kick to push mouth end of hull out first?

I ran some dummy loads through it and all ejected ok. Had few failure to feed. 

I've not practiced loading two.   I may or may not use it for CAS as I have a Stoeger coachgun.  I'd like to be able to loads the magazine and use it for a knock around gun.

[jimbobborg]

I picked up a used IAC 87 yesterday.  The previous owner put less than a box of shells in it, the PPO we have  no idea.  I have some dummy shells I picked up from my smith to try it out.  It will not load if the barrel is vertical but will if it's horizontal, and I'm having a hard time ejecting from the shoulder due to the long stroke of the lever.  I'm going to take it to a local indoor range that lets you shoot birdshot to pattern and test function.  It has a 24" barrel but it's 2" shorter than my 22" 3-Gun shotgun.  I might have to get the stock shortened and get it tuned.  We'll see.

[Cap'n Redneck]

@bibbyman: I mostly cured the problem with star crimped loads not fully extracting by slightly beveling the "12 o'clock" of the chamber mouth.  (Plastic shells still sometimes stick in the chamber or stay attached to the ejectorclaws...)
It seems to me that empty plastic shells are often both to soft and to light to eject reliably.  I solved this problem by switching to all-brass shells, but I guess you can still get roll-crimped paper-shells in both smokeless and blackpowder in the US...?
I think the shorter overall length of a roll-crimped paper-shell + the more rigid body of the paper-shell might do the trick. 

[jimbobborg]

Has anyone tried the Aguila 1 3/4" shells in their 87?  From some of my research someone mentioned that they were originally designed to use 2 5/8" shells which is why most have a problem ejecting newer 2 3/4" shells.  I think I'll find a box and try them out.  Are the shorties legal for SASS?

[Trailrider]

I have one of the Coyote Caps modified guns (load two mod), and shot it briefly. I am NOT a speedster, and being allowed to load only two shells for SASS matches, I don't see the advantage of the M1887 over a SxS or even a M'97. If they would allow loading the magazine full (say 5 rounds) under the clock, I could see it. Years ago, the late Cathouse Bill and I ran timed, head-to-head tests using '87, '97 and SxS. For a six round course of fire, loading while the clock was running, there was almost no difference between the three. (Cathouse Bill usually beat me regardless of which guns we were shooting.) With that skimpy hammer spur, etc., IMHO, this wasn't one of John Moses Browning's most inspired design. (Actually, I think he was inspired by the fact that Winchester asked him to design a lever-action shotgun, and probably paid him handsomely for it, as was their custom!  ) Just MHO. Your mileage may vary.

[cpt dan blodgett]

Picked up a CAI 87 at a gun show in Phoenix last October, never shot it, but did deburr the action a little.  Last Tuesday or Wednesday handed it to Lassiter at WR.  Should come home in a couple of months (hold up is getting the recoil pad that are in short supply right now) slicker than snot and functioning flawlessly.

If the CAI folks get me the right side carrier I asked them for I should be able to fully stoke with the stock carrier and switch to the drop two carrier when shooting SASS.