Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Winchester Model 1873 => Topic started by: cactus joe on January 17, 2018, 02:19:55 PM
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Been having a problem with my uberti '73 .in 45 colt extracting fired cases. Usually about one in 10 shots the extractor fails to grab onto the fired case. when i start the lever down the gun jams because the fired case is about half way out of the chamber, but is not grabbed onto by the extractor. not sure if the extractor has it for a while and lets it go or after the shot the extractor loses contact with the case. A couple of days ago torn the gun down a checked out the extractor and as far as i could tell it looked good. Took it to the range today and had the same problem. The gun is about 10 months old with approximately 2k rounds through it. At the range today before i fired any shots i loaded 10 rounds and without firing i ran ejected all 10 without a problem. repeated this again and again all 10 ejected. so it seems to happen after a shot is fired. Thanks for any help. joe
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Well, it certainly could be a slightly weak/iffy extractor. You can pull up on it to check for tension but it would be hard to describe in words how much tension should be there. Also, be sure the cutout in the extractor is clean. And finally, be sure the cartridge support tab on the bottom of the bolt face is not broken off.
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When i had the extractor out i made sure it was clean, as far as the tension before i took it out of the bolt it seemed that it had more tension than after i replaced it. had some problems with getting the pin back in. i when i lift up on it it goes back into the bolt, but not as strong as it did before, but regardless the gun still messes up as it did before i took it apart.. the bottom support looks to be fine also. i don't see anything at all wrong with it's shape. and it't not bent up or down.
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Hmm, well seems you are checking the right things. If you take one of the empty cases that fails to extract, and drop it down into the chamber does it fall in and back out on its own? Clean chamber? That's about the limit of my ideas. If one of the gunsmiths doesn't show up and give some info, then you might repost this in the gunsmithing forum.
If the gun is 10 months old and was bought new, then it may still be in warranty? Although if you have to ship it that would not be my first choice.
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Thanks Alilene, yea i think my warranty might be shot because i always shoot reloads through it. i'll try dropping a casing in as you suggested. i going to clean it in a few minutes. i have even checked my brass rims and cleaned the extractor grooves on all the brass. i use Starline and Win. but both have the same problem. Every time i run the lever up on a loaded shell or unloaded casing the gun extracts. but about 1 out 10 times after firing it doesn't. Something is causing my extractor to come off the casing after the shot. Thanks for your help. joe
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I don't know much about these rifles, learning myself, but did you lower the hammer on either the mty brass or loads when you test cycled them or did you just cycle them with the hammer back? If you didn't the only difference is that the hammer is against the bolt thingy when you fired the gun and having issues and not against the bolt thingy when test cycled the loaded rounds which worked ok. The hammer is putting pressure somewhere that it's not supposed to. Camming something? Just an observation.
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Ed, When i cycled the rounds through without firing, the hammer was cocked back for all 20 times that i did it, and every round chambered and ejected. yes for some reason when the hammer strikes the firing pin extension and the round fires my ejector comes off the rim of the case. when it does this, i'm not sure. i only notice it cause the gun jams and the shell casing is about half way out of the chamber. And the bolt is a few inches away from the case. So i then just raise the lever back up and it then grabs the case and ejects it. Kinda like a double clutch.
Abilene as to your suggestion, when i drop a casing into the chamber and then tilted the gun up the casing easily slide out of the chamber. So no dirty chamber.
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I think what i might try next, and i'm sure if this will work, Is i have a Uberti 1860 Henry in 45 colt. So if the bolts are the same i will swap them around to see what happens. The Henry has never given me a problem in the 10 years i've had it.
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Have you tried ejecting mtys but with the hammer down? You could try it with the hammer gently lowered and then try it with mtys with the hammer dropped using the trigger. See how the firing pin extension moves. Another experiment would be to fire a round but thumb cock the hammer not disturbing things and then eject the mty as usual. See what that does. Try to eliminate contributing factors one at a time, recoil, the hammer, extractor, firing pin extension, ammo, etc.
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Thanks ed i'll give that a try tomorrow. I know that i have put empty cases in the chamber and they have ejected, but the hammer was cocked. it's getting late here, so i'll mess with in the morning.
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Have you tried ejecting mtys but with the hammer down? You could try it with the hammer gently lowered and then try it with mtys with the hammer dropped using the trigger. See how the firing pin extension moves. Another experiment would be to fire a round but thumb cock the hammer not disturbing things and then eject the mty as usual. See what that does. Try to eliminate contributing factors one at a time, recoil, the hammer, extractor, firing pin extension, ammo, etc.
Yep.
wM1
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Ok ED, just back from the range tried the things you mention. Let the Hammer down on a empty, and it ejected without any problems. Brought the hammer back on another empty sand that one ejected Loaded up a few rounds and the problem still persisted when rounds were fired. I think i'm just going to have to buy a new extractor and cross pin. kinda messed my pin up some getting it out some. Maybe somehow my extractor has lost some of it's spring. and the jolt of firing somehow knocks it off the case rim. Thanks for everyone's help.
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OK. Time for me to wade in.
It's going to be one of two problems. First to check is the notch/slot in the back of the barrel and the fit of the extractor into the notch. You DO NOT want the ramp of the slot to push the extractor up off the rim.
Head Space. This is the Biggie. I'm actually betting you have excess headspace. When you run live ammo thru the gun, the Breach Block (bolt) is pushing back off the cartridge pulling the extractor off the rim. Take a really hard look at your head space. There may be a couple of suggestions to fix.
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cvoffinmaker, when i move the bolt forward and the extractor goes into the slot in the barrel the extractor does raise up ever so slightly and when i just barely withdraw it i notice that the extractor stays up ever so slightly. In other words the amount it comes up when it goes in is the same as when i just bring it back out. On my 1860 it also raises up about the same, but unlike the '73 the extractor returns to it's original position.
As far as having a head space problem, maybe, but i don't have any feeler gauges, and i'm not sure how to check it.
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From reading your last post I would make sure the extractor is moving freely in the bolt. Probably remove it and make sure it's not such a tight fit it should spring back down like you mentioned on your Henry.
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Cliff, As far as the extractor movement, it is something that i think i caused when i took it apart the other day. Before i took it apart i checked it and it did spring down like the Henry, but i had a lot of problems getting the pin in and out that i messed it up some (i've ordered another one from VTI). So the extractor does move freely but too freely now. As far as my extracting problem from before i took the gun apart and to now after taking the gun apart it still has the same rate of jamming even though the extractor has lost some of it's spring.
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Ok some of what posted in my previous post is wrong. I just placed a empty casing in the chamber and a few times the extractor failed to grab it. before i took the extractor out it never did that. The extractor seems to really lost it's bite now. Does the retainer cross pin put any physical force on the extractor? Doesn't it it just retained the extractor in the slot?
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It holds it in position so it has to spring to clip on the case rim.
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Not all cases have the same rim diameter. I got a 73 back from a smith and took it to the range to try it. It would leave a round in once in a while. The extractor would ride up a small amount when it got to the cutout in the barrel. The cases that would not extract were Hornady. The rim dia. is smaller and the extractor was riding up enough to slip over it. Cut a little more relief in the barrel and problem solved.
wM1
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Wildman, i thought about my cases too. I have been using theses Starline and Winchester cases for a number of years now. I think i have 200 Starline and 50 Win. They all work in my Henry. I also cleaned all the case rims cause they were getting a little gummed up .
Cliff are you saying the pin puts Tension on the extractor too? I know it holds it in place. Anyway as i mentioned had to get a new one also will be getting a new extractor from VTI. hope that helps fix things.
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You will have to fit that new extractor in the bolt. Maybe the relief cut in the barrel is not enough and making the extractor ride up and if the extractor is binding or something maybe not moving back down and grab the rim. Might either need to modify the relief cut and make sure the extractor can spring back down freely in the bolt without binding. Maybe a combination of issues.
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I'm gonna go ++ with Coffinmaker and Cliff on this
1) ya need some clearance so the extractor does NOT ride up at all in the barrel cutout
2) the extractor must be able to move freely in the bolt so it can bear down over the rim - if its at all sticky in the slot in the bolt then it can get hung up when the extractor nose goes over the case rim - and yeah it needs a little tension so ya should have to sqeeeze it down a little when ya put the retainer pin back in - ifn ya didnt do that when ya re assembled maybe ya bulged that pin hole some (or distorted the pin) - added just a little more chaos to the confusion ?
Wid a 44/40 proly wouldnt have all this hassle cuz they got a decent rim on em - rim on a 45colt is real skinny - not much room fer error there!
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greyhawk, yeah i'm sure the pin is buggered. That's why i'm getting another one. It came out hard. think it was staked in. As far as my extractor going into the barrel slot, i'm pretty sure it has always done this even when i 1st got the gun. and the problem seems to have started about 3 months ago. Also the extractor on my 1860 henry goes into the barrel slot too and that works right all the time. Only front of the extractor goes into the barrel cut out. The actual exactor cut out that hooks on to the case rim sits right on the case rim. If it were back more so the extractor didn't go into the barrel cut out then the extractor hook cut out would never be forward enough to reach the case rim. As far as messing the pin hole, hope not, but i won't know until i get that new pin.
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Just to follow on my problem. It looks like to fixed. Was at the range today and fired 50 rounds with no jams. It seems that replacing the extractor and the cross pin solved the problem. Something else that may have contributed to the problem was my last batch of bullets that i bought had a lube substance all over the outside of them. every time i would seat a bullet i'd get some on my fingers which would transfer to the case when removed the round from the press. Also i'd put all the rounds into a plastic container where more lube would get on the cases. So i think maybe some rounds would not properly seal in the chamber upon firing due to the lube on the cases. this could have caused the case to put rearward pressure on the bolt and maybe cause the extractor to come off the rim. Just a guess. Anyway it is working flawlessly now. Thanks for everyones help.
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oooooooow - oily cases - at least get a rag or a piece of old towell and wipe em down till they feel dry !
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oooooooow - oily cases - at least get a rag or a piece of old towell and wipe em down till they feel dry !
Yea instead of just throwing all the loaded rounds in a plastic tube, i've starting using my 50 round boxes so each round are in their slots instead of all grouped together, until i use up the rest of these bullets. I just can't believe how much lube was on these bullets, and i should have paid attention to how much was being transferred to my loaded cases.