Author Topic: Toggle link system not weak !!  (Read 3356 times)

Offline Bounty Bill

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Toggle link system not weak !!
« on: April 16, 2006, 07:06:24 PM »
If you have been told, believe or have read all toggle link rifle systems are weak please check on the following web site about the Winchester 1876 toggle link system.  The test was run on the Winchester 1876 by the Winchester factory.

                                http://www.bar-w.com/1876v04.html

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Offline Wolfgang

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Re: Toggle link system not weak !!
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2006, 08:23:58 PM »
Very interesting.  Thanks for posting.   :)
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Offline Dakota Widowmaker

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Re: Toggle link system not weak !!
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2006, 10:53:02 PM »
Wait a minute...

Compairing the 1876 linkage to what is used in the 1866 and 1873 is "not fare".

The 76 is far more beefy than what you find in the henry and 66 and 73.

I have talked to a number of CAS gunsmiths and they have all seen blown 73s and 66s from overly stout 45lc smokeless loads.

what you see in the 76 is much  stronger and the reciever is much thicker as well.

Don't go comparing apples to oranges.

My 1886 is a TANK!!! Full house 45-90 smokeless loads with 400gr bullets are brutal. But it uses vastly different design than what is in the toggle link system.

I too read that article and there are some quesitons I have for it.

1) it only shows bp loads. how the hell did they get 200+gr of black powder into those shells? Something don't add up. And how did they stack 3 bullets ontop of one another?

2) modern smokeless loads will generate 4x the chamber pressure that BP loads did back then. Most BP loads were under 15K, todays smokeless loads routinely run at 30-45K.

I'm not saying the whole design is inferrior for what we use it for...but, lets not kid outselves either.

I shall point out that the Henry and 1866 reproductions made by Uberti are not intended for use with anything beyond the specs of 45lc ammo. And they even recommend using "CAS" type loads...

Offline Capt, Woodrow F. Call

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Re: Toggle link system not weak !!
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2006, 07:15:29 AM »

I shall point out that the Henry and 1866 reproductions made by Uberti are not intended for use with anything beyond the specs of 45lc ammo. And they even recommend using "CAS" type loads...


Howdy.

Your rigth, i have spoken to a friend of me, how speak italian, he sayed the Henry 60, 66 and Win 73, is exact copy of the original's, only one thing is better then original's, the brass and steel 8), but the finish of the guns and rifles...some are very good :), and some is not so good :-[
The ammo to use, is based on original loads with BP, and the tests of smokless powder is based on very small loads. I am a BP man, so i dont have to be nervous 8).
About the toggle link system, is not that weak, but we shud not play with other loading data....after all they are exact copy's ;)
One thing i have tryed out in my Henry, is ....if i use regular BP...FF or FFF, it it will give more dirt innside the barrel, so i have tryed out more fine powder....call it ...FFFFFF,( i have to make it more like BP dust) the barrel is very clean...even after 20 shoots :o
hee.........how they get 200+ grains in this shells....bet's me too ???, even in that time the shells was thinner, and they had rimfire.....mabye that can give more space...i dont now ::).

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Offline Driftwood Johnson

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Re: Toggle link system not weak !!
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2006, 09:54:19 AM »
Capt Woodrow:

Do not use FFFFg in your cartridges!!!! It burns to hot and too fast!!! FFFFg is for the pans of flintlock rifles, only. Stick with FFg or FFFg.

****************8

That test has been referred to many times. It should also be noted that the test was conducted with Black Powder, not Smokeless. Also, with all that powder and bullets in there, there is no way all that stuff could have been contained in a cartridge, the bullets and extra powder must have been handloaded into the chamber, so if nothing else, pressure would not have been as high as if all that stuff were contained in a cartridge. I'll wager that if the same tests had been conducted with an '86, the '76 would have failed long before the '86 did.

The bottom line is, the '76 was a bigger version of the '73, and its components were scaled up accordingly, so of course, the strength would have been greater. But like the '73, the '76 depended on the toggle links to be lined up straight, and was never truly locked up in the sense that a modern rifle is locked up. The Browning designed 1886 Winchester, with two massive locking lugs was and is much stronger than the 1876, just as the 1892 is much stronger than a 1873. The frames are beefier in the Browning designs, and they both use large locking lugs to securely lock the bolt in place.
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