Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => 1860 Henry => Topic started by: DJ on December 02, 2017, 01:52:55 PM
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I have an 1866 I would like to shoot and was wondering if anyone has converted an original to center fire. Before I ruffle any feathers, let me say that I have acquired a spare original bolt with extractor and firing pin as well as spare firing pin extension ("piston"), so at most I am looking to modify spare parts rather than the originals that came in the gun.
What I'm interested in is the technique used for the conversion. Unlike an 1973, which has a flat bolt face with a hole in it for the firing pin, the '66 bolt has a fairly large hole bored all the way through, and the firing pin extension also acts as a substantial part of the bolt face. The two ideas that come to mind are to plug the face of the bolt and then run a firing pin through the plug or to shorten the firing pin extension and build a new center-fire pin similar to the existing rimfire pin. The latter would have the benefit of reducing or eliminating modifications to my existing spare parts. But I am concerned about headspace and primers maybe backing out if more than half the surface of the bolt face can move back several thousandths of an inch under recoil. I've never heard of that being a problem in the original design, but I wonder if a separate primer would make it an issue.
The '73 is on the left in each of the first two photos (yes, it's an Uberti, but will suffice for my purposes) and the '66 is on the right. The third photo shows the '66 bolt and the removed ignition assembly. (original post was modified to add photos and descriptions of photos).
If you have experience or insights regarding this conversion I would appreciate hearing back.
Thanks--
--DJ
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About 20 years ago, a CAS City member named Charley Gullet created a centerfire 1866. It all started with a relic 1866 receiver and lifter I sent him, crusted in the rusty remains of the barrel and innards. He submerged it in some kind of acid that attacked the rust, but left the bronze (gunmetal) receiver and lifter intact. He used heavily modified 1873 parts, except the barrel, which was an original 1866 barrel. He used 41 Magnum brass to fabricate the cases, and had a special heeled bullet mold made .442" for the bore.
I do not remember any more details, and Charley dropped out of CAS around 12-15 years ago. It was a slick little weapon and a real show stopper.
Around the same time Charley did his, I knew another shooter that had an original 1866 Center Fire. He used a different case for the round, something like a 41 Colt.
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I just had a flash. Charley published one or two books on CAS, and I believe they had his contact info and real name in the covers. I don't think I still have mine, but some long time member might have a copy and could check for you.
Hey Coffinmaker, do you have a copy? You were in the posse back then.
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I did a little checking. Charly is associated with Warfield Press in Prescott. Their contact info is on their website, in case it helps.
http://www.warfieldpress.com/ (http://www.warfieldpress.com/)
CC Griff
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Hi Guys,
I remember Charley converting that rifle, and I know of his books. Unfortunately, I don't have a copy. I also don't remember exactly how he converted the '66. Had I both an original 1866 and an original 1873 and a pile of spare parts and my machine tools back inna shop, it would be a fun project. Twould require some modified cartridge cases as well.
What I wouldn't give for a few thousand new manufacture 44 Henry Flat cartridges. Then I'd also need an original '66 and a pair of original 1872 Open Top pistols. Take that all you "Period Correct" posers. O Odin hear my want!!!!
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I believe there was a 66 bolt that had rim and center fire pins, with out getting my book out to confirm this. will look tonight.
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I decided I will play around with it for awhile and see what I come up with. I'm planning to make new parts rather than alter the spare originals I have, because I don't think it will be that much more work and that way I can save the originals for a later project.
I started today by roughing out the firing pin extension/piston from a piece of 3/8" drill rod. I left it long, because I still haven't decided how I will adapt it to centerfire.
Does anyone know what the threads on an original piston measure? I come up with .217 major diameter and 40 threads per inch, which seems pretty close to #5 NC. CORRECTION: close to #12, and an extra-fine thread, nonstandard thread, too. Don't know how I got #5. Anyway, not a size you see everyday, but sometimes Ebay seems to have everything.
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Hello DJ, If you look at page # 29 in Arthur Pirkle s book ( Winchester Lever Action Repeating Firearms ) Volume 1 you will see figure 1-38 the striker for rim fire and the striker for center fire .A short description says that the Winchester factory made the change from rim to center fire by replacing the striker only, with a center fire projection , some had both rim fire and center fire projections . A very simple conversion. If I could I would post a pic. of the drawing but am not able to post pics at this time PS . an old friend of mine that lived out his life near the Rio Grande and Old Mexico , both sides, had a center fire Model 66 Winchester that came up from Old Mexico . He shot it at times was a cool old carbine , had a rifle style butt . He has recently passed and left me his old 1876 Heavy Barrel rifle . Not sure who got the 66 . ,,,DT
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Hey DT--
Thanks for the suggestion--I don't know how I missed looking at Pirkle's book. As you can kind of see from his diagram (which becomes immediately apparent when you open one up), the 1866 does not really have a bolt face the way 1873s and most other firearms do--with the 1866 the edge of the bolt acts as part of the bolt face, the circular striker/firing pin acts as an "inner circle" of the bolt face, and the firing pin extension/piston acts as the center of the bolt face. In an original, the striker and the extension/piston are free to move back and forth a few thousandths, and I am curious if that will allow centerfire primers to back out (and what effect that might have, if any).
Helpfully, Pirkle explains that the centerfire modification involved replacing or modifying the rimfire striker/firing pin and then adding a central firing pin to the firing pin extension/piston. What is not obvious from his description is that the firing pin extension/piston forms part of the support for the case head when fired and there consequently is no room to simply add a centerfire striker without either making it part of the piston or shortening the piston. I decided to hold off on modifying the original spare parts I acquired at least until I work out the best solution, and am working on a reproduction piston/striker to fit the original bolt. Of course everything is stalled for now, because I didn't have a tap and die set of the right size, although they are now supposedly en route.
Again, thanks for the pointer to Pirkle's book as I had completely missed it, and it at least validates some of my process.
Best--
--DJ
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DJ , I did read in Pirkles book that frontier gunsmith conversions were done by adding the center fire pin to the striker ( Note the firing pin looks to be very wide at its base ) for helping keep the primer in place upon firing ? . I did not see where he mentioned the shortening of the piston , but can see where that may be necessary . I think if I were doing a conversion on an original as you are doing , I would make a new piston and striker doing so would eliminate the need to use the exact thread as the original. A very interesting project . Will be on standby waiting to see your progress. Good Luck ,,,DT
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Hey DT--
Thanks for your interest and good words.
I'm waiting on the tap and die, because I needed a size smaller than 1/4-28 and I was afraid that the next step down in my toolbox (#10-32) would be too small and easily bent or broken. #12-40 is pretty much obsolete, but it falls about in the middle between the other two and is very close to the original in size. Major diameter of 1/4 is .250, #10 is .190, and #12 is .216. I suspect there is a metric size that might have worked, but call it superstition or whatever you like, I just couldn't bring myself to put metric threads in an original 1866 Winchester.
As far as shortening the piston, Pirkle does not mention it, but the way the end of the piston fits flush with the seat for the cartridge (or the three-piece bolt face, if you prefer), there really isn't room to thread a centerfire striker in there. It works with the original rimfire striker, because the "pins" that hit the cartridge are to the sides, and the center is open for the piston to thread into.
Once I'm back up and running I will try to post photos of what did and didn't work.
--DJ
(modfied 12/12/17 to correct silly typo)
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I was thinking about if anyone did this recently, seems like a cool project, I had the same idea except vice versa and make a rimfire bolt for a uberti and go from there. Can't wait to see the final product.
here's a link to a mold for .44 henry flat https://oldwestbulletmoulds.com/products/44-henry-flat-200gr-heel-double-cavity-mould
and a link to a video on making .44 S&W american but its basically the same as .44 henry center fire https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWXz3GR6seo&t=4s
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Hey DJ , if you look at ( The Winchester Book ) by George Madis Page 100 has a very good picture of the breech bolt faces of Rimfire and Centerfire botl faces . The standard rimfire striker ,,, the modified centerfire striker and the factory centerfire striker . I cant post pics now . If you need , I can E-mail you a picture . Let me know ,,,,DT
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Here's a video of a center fire conversion on a Henry, its a very small snippet so might not be helpful https://youtu.be/ofGnRSE7lpI?t=13m59s
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Thanks DT and Nativeshooter for pointers to the photos and video. They should be helpful as I progress. I will probably start with the version that uses the rimfire striker with the pins ground down and will make a new piston that is center drilled for a central firing pin. The alternative, where a bolt face is threaded into the original bolt is interesting, although I will probably hold off on cutting my (spare) original bolt until I see if the first effort works. I also wonder what was used to keep the piston from exiting through the back of the bolt in the event of a ruptured primer--in the original, there is the threaded striker that stops against a shoulder in the bolt, plus the piston is notched in the top and the back of the extractor keeps it from going back too far. With the screwed-in bolt face, only the back end of the extractor holds the piston in the bolt.
As a backup plan I have been working on an 1866 Uberti bolt to see if I can make that work--lots of fitting so far. Interestingly, the Uberti 1866 bolt seems to be about the same as their 1873 bolt.
I have been tracking the tap and die I have been waiting on--they processed through Nanking on December 5th and through Los Angeles on December 15--maybe here by Christmas?? C'mon Santa, you can do this.
--DJ
(mod 12/18 to fix typo)
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Hey DJ, you get your tap and dies yet?
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In a word, "yes." Not sure when they arrived, but they were somehow intercepted and became a gift-wrapped item under the tree that I didn't open until yesterday. With the family together I didn't have much alone time in the shop, but yesterday I did sneak out briefly and thread the end of the firing pin piston. The die cut really well and leaves some pretty sharp V threads. I'm anxious to see how they fit with threads cut by the tap.
I still have some "best design" issues I'm working on--may end up with an "original" and two "improved" designs to try out. The construction of the 1866 bolt is odd--I had no idea what it was like until I tore apart an original to discover there is no bolt face.
Anyway, I won't have much time on it this week, but next weekend should find me at work on it.
--DJ
[modified to add photos]
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Seeing that you have a lathe, couldn't you use a big piece of drill rod and make a hand fitted part to replace the snapper? then you could make it into a workable bolt face.
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If you don't want to alter the original bolt, it's a little more complicated than just making a new striker. The bolt face of the 1866 is made up of three parts--the edge of the bolt, the threaded (internal threads) ring that carries the double rimfire strikers, and the threaded (external threads) striker that screws into the ring. Because of a "shelf" in the front end of the bolt, and the way the bolt fits into the receiver, the piston has to enter through the rear of the bolt, but the bolt face has to enter from the front. When the hammer hits the back of the piston, it drives the piston and the attached collar with the rimfire pins (which are shaped like little wedges) forward.
I've attached a photo of the three components--you can see the little "shelf" inside the front end of the bolt. The other two photos show the rimifire firing pins in the extended and retracted positions. There is very little movement--around 0.030 inches. Note also how the center of the bolt face moves forward when the firing pins move forward so the bolt face is then flat, although the only thing holding the center part forward is the hammer plus a little bit of inertia and friction.
Also of interest--when the chamber is loaded the firing pins are resting against the case, and there is no spring force or safety device to prevent the piston from moving forward. I have not heard of accidental firings, or slam-fires with 1866 Winchesters, but I would think it would be a fairly common event the way it's designed.
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I had a little time in the shop this weekend and played with a couple possible methods for a conversion. The first is similar to what it looks like contemporary gunsmiths might have tried--add a firing pin to the end of the piston and grind off the rimfire strikers from the collar, except I made a new piston and collar. I still need to add some kind of "ears" to the collar to go in the slots at the head of the bolt--they are necessary to keep the collar from turning while screwing and unscrewing the piston. Eventually I need to figure out the correct shape and length of the central firing pin, bearing in mind that it will be resting against the primer whenever there is a round in the chamber, so don't want it too long and pointed. I think it's still a little too long, and I left it thick and rounded thus far.
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I can see why this conversion is a doozy, especially now with original part being hard to come by and expensive. have you tried cutting some brass stock?
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Why don't you glue the collar in the bolt and let the firing pin ride trough it, you can even get a (return) spring between the collar and the firing pin. Some sort of not so super tight loctite (one that lets go after a little heating) should do I guess.
Just something I thought of when I saw your foto's....
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My hesitation with a pin that slides through a fixed collar is that there isn't much holding the piston in the gun in the first place, and unthreading it from the collar removes some of that. Once the little thin 40-to-the-inch threads in the collar are no longer in play, in the event of say, a pierced primer or case failure, there's the extractor that fits in a rounded cutout in the top of the piston (but the extractor is held by a pin only about 1/16 of an inch in diameter). Next stop after the extractor is the hammer (which should at least be in the forward position), and right behind that is my face.
Putting my problem-solving skills to use, I decided to try going the other direction by making a one-piece bolt face that incorporates the collar and the central firing pin--with this design there's no hole that goes through the center of the bolt. I still need to play with the proper dimensions of the firing pin, but this at least shows promise and I think would be a little safer.
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Watching this one with great interest.
I ran across a REALLY nice '66 carbine for $4500. So tempting...
CHT
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Hey DJ, just wondering where you're at on this conversion.
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Just checking if you're still working on this
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Sorry for the long absence--one thing after another, then waiting on a tool (Woodruff key cutter). My little Maximat mill and lathe had been boxed away for a dozen years while I lived other parts of my life. Got the lathe out again about two year ago, but the mill was still in the box. Needed to reassemble it, try to get it true (apparently not quite there), repack the gears with grease, etc. Oddly, I just got back to it yesterday (took a day off with the kids out of school), and today have what I believe is a working prototype. I'll try to get some photos posted to show how it is ending up.
--DJ
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I knew I needed a round key cutter (Woodruff) to cut the quarter-moon notch in the striker, so off to Ebay. It was easy to find a cutter to fit the diameter of the notch, but I could not find one the right width--all were either too thin or too thick, and I didn't want to spend the $$ for a custom width. I also didn't want to cut it twice with a thin cutter, because I was afraid it would throw in an unneeded variable. So (and I suspect this is blasphemy to the real machinists among you) I bought a cutter that was a little too wide and used a carbide bit in the lathe to reduce its width. I had given up on finding my vise (things can be hard to find after a dozen years) so I installed the piston/striker in a quick-change tool holder as if it had been a round boring bar. I then turned my milling head sideways, which involved pulling the chuck off of my lathe head to make room. Here are some photos of the cutter setup (cut already made) and the relationships of the parts. Silly me didn't realize the quarter-moon cut is in two different diameters--interestingly the deeper cut is machine-made, but the two edges appear to have been filed on.
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Here are a couple shots comparing an original with the conversion. You can see the file marks on the original cutout--not sure why'd you be filing there. Even though I didn't match the diameters correctly, it looks like it should work.
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I have to tell you that I'm really impressed with your work. This is a very cool project.
CC Griff
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I also cut the bevel on the back end of the striker--I just tried to mimic the original--I don't think tolerances are very tight on this end.
After that comes reassembly and then some more primer tests. Based on the design, I cannot see why the Model 1866 does not have a reputation for accidental discharges and slam fires, but perhaps I'll find out. Weirdly, a couple years ago I saw dies on Ebay for .44 Evans Short and .45 Henry Flat. I don't have an Evans that shoots the short cartridge, but happened to know they would work with .44 Merwin Hulbert. I also figured that "someday" I might reload a Model 1866, so got the Henry dies as well--I mean, how often do you see those for sale? So during primer testing I also plan to start working up a cartridge.
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Looking good ! Have been keeping up with your project , anxious to see how it fires ! ,,,DT
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Well, something always comes up. I got the action reassembled and it all seems to work. I had a couple of .44 cases that are .440 in diameter and short enough to fit in the chamber, so I tried them out, and the primers went off as they should, so there's progress.
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Now I'm working on forming some brass. The "book" diameter of a .44 Henry seems to be .446, which will take some work. Oddly, the used .44 Henry dies (by CH-4D) I have seem to form a slightly bottlenecked case, with a base of .448 and a neck of .440. Not sure what that is about, but it will be interesting to see. In any event, I figure I can form and shorten .44 Russian cases, but I have broken enough dies to know that you run a risk if you try to full-length form a case from .457 (.44 Russian case head diameter) to .446 with regular sizing dies. You need to take special steps when forming the head, and anyone who has heard that telltale "ping" of a die cracking knows what I mean. Fortunately, last summer I made up a series of head swaging dies out of bolts to take .44 Special case heads (.457 diameter) down to form .44 Merwin, Hulbert cases (which are a straight case of .440 diameter), so if I poke around through what I've got already, I may have what I need.
Of course with every "fortunately" there is usually an accompanying "unfortunately," and today is no exception--it seems this rifle was dry-fired enough that the rimfire firing pins made dents in the end of the chamber--they're actually pretty small, but they have raised corresponding burrs on each side of chamber, at 3:00 and 9:00 o'clock that scratch the full size brass more than I'd like. They must be fairly small--only few thousandths tall--because they don't scratch a .440 diameter case, but they are big enough to scratch a full-diameter case and interfere with seating a cartridge of .448 diameter. I suspect they would also put some drag on the case after it is fired, which could be a problem with extraction--1866 extractors are not particularly robust. With the geometry of the barrel and receiver, these will be a little tough to get at, but I am not interested in pulling the barrel out of the frame, so we are in a delay mode for a little bit while I hunt down my bent Swiss riffler files to see if I have something suitable to use.
Below are photos of the chamber burrs and the partially formed .44 Russian cases. The burrs show as two little shiny areas at 9:00 and 3:00 o'clock. The case shows several scratches, because I ran it into the chamber a few times to find the location of the burrs. You can see that each scratch starts about a third of the way down the case, which is about the bottom of the very very slight bottleneck formed by the dies.
--DJ
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I'm enjoying following this.
Regarding the problems with the chamber and pulling the barrel; I have an old '73 Winchester (1886 production) whose barrel was hopelessly pitted and needed to be lined, which of course required pulling the barrel. Even though I'm not a gunsmith, the process was dirt clod simple.
I found that a 1" x 2" board such as one finds at a lumberyard fit the carrier mortise perfectly (I used oak). So using a center punch I indexed the barrel in a hidden area under the forearm, used a hydraulic press and two oak blocks to clamp to hold the barrel, put the 1 x 2 board through the carrier mortise, and simply screwed the frame off the barrel. It required very little effort to break the receiver free of the barrel.
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Winchester/20160128_171813_zpsv13jxw6n.jpg) (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Winchester/20160128_171813_zpsv13jxw6n.jpg.html)
For a round barrel, one would need to groove a couple of oak blocks and apply a little rosins.
After John Taylor lined the barrel and returned it to me, I simply reversed the procedure screwing the receiver back onto the barrel until the indexing marks were aligned. Easy-peasy.
I bet that once the barrel were removed, the raised areas at the rear of the chamber could be carefully worked down.
CHT
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Looks like rust may be causing the case marks. Do you have a bore scope. I wold use some steel wool and polishing compound and work slowly from the chamber mouth in.
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You'll have to make one of these in the right diam.:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqUZwIf0J2k
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That is a fascinating tool--I'm going to have to figure out how it works. I don't know if I will need it for this project, but I have a couple of Spencers that could use some help. On account of its firing pin design, dry-firing a Spencer can raise a lump in the chamber about 1/8 of an inch wide, and deep enough to keep a case from even entering the chamber. I would love to try ironing out the lump with such a tool.
As for my '66 conversion project, it appears that the firing pins only raised a couple of pretty small burrs. I believe I have them cleaned off, and have the brass equation solved (although I still need to make a few cases). I have moulds for bullets that will fit, but none of the ones I tried make a cartridge long enough to function through the action. "Somewhere" I have one more mould I intend to try, but I need to locate it first and cast up some bullets. I've now tried primers several times, and they consistently go off, so I think we're getting close.
--DJ
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I envy your machining and engineering skills! Fascinating to watch your work in progress.
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I envy your machining and engineering skills! Fascinating to watch your work in progress.
I wholeheartedly concur!
CC Griff
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Yep what they said . Very good job .Nothing wrong with getting one of these old irons shooting again , and no harm done to the original parts . ,,,DT
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Awww . . . y'all are makin' me blush.
Project delayed on account of my 3-day weekend was taken up with college tours for a couple of high school seniors.
I'm optimistic about some brass-forming and perhaps casting this weekend in preparation for a range trip.
--DJ
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Range Trip?? OH YUM!!!! Hardly wait
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OK, I decided to make a second bolt head in case my first one isn't quite right. The first one I made has a broader firing pin with the idea that it might operate to support the primer a little bit to keep it from backing out. The alternative bolt head has a much smaller firing pin and less fore-and-aft travel in an effort to provide a little more case head support. I also hardened the piston, because it was peening a little where the hammer hits it. After all was assembled I chambered a few primed cases--they fired just fine, but I also noticed that just chambering the case causes a dent in the primer (photos below). So I need to dissassemble the bolt head and reduce the length of the firing pin very slightly. So much of this work is adjust--assemble--try--dissassemble--adjust some more, because all I have are approximate dimensions. If you go too far, start over again. I'm trying to get the center pin the same length as the rimfire pins--so close but so far away. I mangaged to get some brass made up and have found some bullets that will do in a pinch, but just could not get it all done and to the range this weekend. Still, I feel I'm getting closer.
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Man DJ that is a nice rifle and im always anxious for the next up date. out of curiosity, would copying how a uberti bolt prevent the primers from being dented/going off?
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Hey Nativeshooter--
Thanks for the input and interest. I have a Uberti 1866 bolt that I partially fitted, but it is a different design--much more like an 1873 bolt with a sold bolt face and very different firing pin design. If the conversion I'm working on ends up not being very durable, or if the problems cannot be safely solved, then I will probably try the 1873-style bolt. But I'm hopeful that I can work things out with a little more trial and error.
For the time being my project is on hold as I'm taking time off to visit the Maryland Arms Collectors Show this weekend. I would guess that the majority of items for sale at this show are civil war era, but there is a broad range of offerings from Revolutionary War flintlocks up through K98s of WWII. If you ever have a chance to go, it is pretty amazing and usually has a strong showing of original Winchesters as well as a variety of original cowboy era handguns (Colts, Remingtons, Merwin Hulberts, S&Ws, plus lots of obscure stuff). It could easily break the bank if a person took to buying things, but it only costs $10 to look all day.
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that does sound awesome, too bad im a plains baby. Seems like all the cool gun shows happen on the east coast. :(
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that does sound awesome, too bad im a plains baby. Seems like all the cool gun shows happen on the east coast. :(
I agree- exceptions are the Tulsa show which is good for Winchester’s and SAA and the Missouri Valley Collectors show in August in the Kansas City Area. I would love to make the Baltimore Show one day but that is a long way from Kansas!
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I just thought about this, but doesn't someone here have an original winchester that was converted at the factory?
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At Last!!
I cobbled together about 25 rounds of test ammo before the weekend but was tied up all day Saturday as a chauffeur and most of Sunday with catch-up chores (after "missing" last weekend while at the Baltimore Show). About 4:00 p.m. I reached a good quitting point and lamented that I wouldn't have time to go to the range to test things out. Spouse replied, "It doesn't get dark until after 7:00--just go." So number 2 son and I loaded up some guns and ammo, grabbed some cardboard for targets, and off to the range.
I was pleased to see that everything went off with no problems. I had loaded up some light loads with fiber wads to fill up the air space--they fired just fine, so I went to the "full power" loads. I was surprised at how mild even the "case full of 3f" loads were. I still need to figure out the right bullet, cartridge length, etc., but it was pretty exciting that it worked so well.
I still need to sort out the right load, but in the meantime, IT SHOOTS!
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WOOHOOO! CONGRATS DJ! Thats awesome, hopefully we can see more of it in the near future!
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Very good work , great to see your project turned out so nice . Look forward to seeing the old 66 shot more .,,,DT
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Of course, you realize, if you could find a reasonably priced Henry, the same method/Parts would work again????
CONGRATULATIONS!! AN ORIGINAL 1866 MUSKET ROARS AGAIN!! How absolutely MARVELOUS!!
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BRAVO!!
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Lots of creativity there, really awesome to see you build this. More awesome seeing it firing again. Recently i was looking at gunbroker and someone is selling two converted bolts for couple 66's. I have the link here.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/762190157
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The bolts on Gunbroker are interesting--I suspect they are factory modifications/manufacture, because I think cutting the 1873-style rectangular slot for the firing pin retainer would be beyond the capabilities of most period gunsmiths or just more trouble than it would be worth.
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Awesome work! If I remember correctly, Charley Gullet used .41 Magnum brass with the rim turned down and shortened. I don't remember where he got the heeled bullet mold, though.
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old west bullet molds has a .44 henry bullet mold. casts the 200 grain one i think
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Howdy, curious what the status of the project is. I went through my old notes and found that Charlie Gullet did use 41 magnum brass trimmed to length. I think the rims were OK though as the extractor was designed for 44 rimfire too which was substantial. The cases were something like .436" for a base diameter. Seems it would be easier than messing with .44 Russian or shortened 44 Colt Starline brass. It seems like there was a metric sized rimmed small bore rifle cartridge that had an acceptable base diameter also.
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DJ, do you just use regular .44 russian ammo, or do you have to make it a heel based 44 russian for it to fire?
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Sorry for the slow responses--some graduations, visitations, and wildlife-induced extra chores (think "nest of dead baby raccoons inside the HVAC system") have kept me from the things I prefer doing.
As to the bullet, I tried both inside lubed and outside lubed, heeled bullets. The inside lubed worked all right but severely limit powder space. The outside lubed bullets I have moulds for are just a little to long at the front driving band so they jam into the rifling and are hard to chamber. I have almost completed the dimensions for a custom mould based on the dimensions required by my rifle and some old Henry CF drawings i found on the Internet. Perhaps a Father's Day gift to myself. I saw the Old West mould, but think I will try something just a little different. But thanks for the pointer, Nativeshootist.
As far as brass, I started with .44 Russian and then trimmed to length and swaged the head to about .445 (down from .457). That worked fine, but because of the heavy floating firing pin that is constantly in contact with the primer, I switched to some .44 Magnum I had lying around. The Mag brass has a little bit thicker web (at least the one I cut open and measured did), and I am deepening the primer pocket by .010". This gives me the option of loading large rifle primers (that are harder, and less likely to slam fire) or large pistol primers that are slightly countersunk. I have not played with it enough to figure out which is better--reference lack of time mentioned in first paragraph. Also, I have not managed to induce a slam fire when testing primed cases, but I have managed to dent some primers to the point it made me squeamish. I suspect dropping the rifle with a chambered round onto a hard surface would cause it to fire, but I'll let someone with an expendable original '66 do that testing.
Regarding .41 Mag brass as a base cartridge, I have found that my '66 extractor does not reliably grab the rim, which is a little small. It will pull it partly out of the chamber and then let go, but I then get jams when the carrier lifts up into the partially extracted case. .41 Mag cases work for single loading, but not consistently for use as a repeater. A different extractor or rifle might yield different results. I have the same experience with using .41 Mag brass to form .44 Merwin Hulbert--because of the unique extraction method, an undersized rim often leads to only partial extraction before the case slips off the extractor ring. .44 American revolvers, which use a very similar cartridge to the .44 Merwin Hulbert short do not have the same problem (or at least not as often) because they have a different extractor that makes rim diameter less of an issue.
As a side note to anyone who decides to play with deepening primer pockets (which I have done in the past to put rifle primers into .445 Win Mag brass when reloading for .44 Evans Long), even with a lathe I was never able to get a flat-ground drill bit to work--it would always wander around just enough to make the primer pocket too big. I have had much much better results using an end mill of the proper size (I use something very close to .209), which is much stiffer than a drill bit.
Guess that's it for now.
--DJ
(6/15/18--edited to correct typos caused by typing without glasses)
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In my Never Ending Quest for something not quite run of the mill ..... I constantly search Antique Shops, Gun Shops, Gun Shows, Auctions, anywhere I might find a low round count Original Henry at a price substantially less than the cost of a House .... Just so I could do a Central Fire conversion as DJ has done with his '66.
I have finally had to console myself with Reproductions, modified to run Cowboy 45 Special cases. That works. However, My rifles are and always will be Reproductions. Even my '66, modified to run 44 Russian. Ergo:
Damn but that is one FINE project DJ. Only wish it twer MINE ;D
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Thanks for the update DJ! man, seeing the case problems that you're having is amazing. Least I know now that .41 magnum rim is a bit short. Have you tried experimenting with buffalo arms .44 henry centerfire cases? I know they're expensive, but would be cool to see if they work. Also, if I had a original 66 rifle, I would see if dropping it would cause it to go off. Im a very curious person.
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Oh NO Mr. Bill!! The absolute last thin in the world I would want to do is deliberately drop an Original 1866!! Drop an original '66 with 150+ year old wood that has been drying for 150+ years, on it's metal furniture?? Can you spell SPLIT all to heck?? Drop the thing?? Go wash your mouth out with Chocolate or something and get that idea smooth out of yer head!!!
OOPS: Forgot; Or for that matter an Original Henry!!!
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A good number of years ago, I developed a center fire breach block for the Spencer Repeating Arms.
The idea was to drop out the original rim fire block and replace it with the new center fire block. This way the owner of the fire arm could keep all the original parts together, should they wish to sell the fire arm, with replacement block for a little more than was paid for the original fire arm.
My suggestion to altering the Henry or 1866's to center fire would be to make new replacement part to accomplish this, and sell them on the side to people who own original Henry's and/or 1866's, that are in good enough condition to be shot with BP only!
The problem with this is individuals owners idea of "useable condition" and just what "black powder only" means.
This is not a concern with the modern reproduction. It still is with setting up originals to shoot today.
My best,
Blair
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I sure will try Coffinmaker, but curiosity is killer. How i end up doing a lot of dumb stuff.
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Any updates? The guy I got my Navy Arms US made Henry from is thinking of buying a fixer 1866.
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I know this is an older post, but I've acquired an 1866 barreled action with no internals. I would like to recreate all the internals. does anyone have any measurements of the bolt, firing pin, carrier, etc? There is mention above of one of the members rebuilding the bolt. I have built an 1873 bolt for my 1st model, but had another bolt in hand to aid in construction, also Art Pirkel's book. anything offered is great
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hyflyr, i think homestead gun parts has original internals,so does ebay. but you are going to pay a premium
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You might try J B Hooten. He has done several conversions on henry or 66 relics. He might be able to give you some how to ideas.
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I have recently acquired a decent 1866 carbine that I'd like to shoot. With a newly made or existing modified bolt, I hope to shoot my original barrel, but the Henry RF chamber measures too small (diameter) for a 44 Russian which I'd originally hoped to use. I can't identify a useable case, European or otherwise. Any ideas are appreciated. I may be reduced to turning my own, but then it's on to making dies, etc.
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.44 Russian as-is should be too big. You might be able to use cut down .41 Mag brass, depending on your extractor. Cut down .303 Savage should be even closer. Earlier posts in this thread show different methods of converting to center fire without altering the original parts.
Keep us posted.
--DJ
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I need to make a pair of toggles for my 1866. does anyone have a set and are willing to measure them carefully? i have consulted Art Pirkle's book, but can't make his numbers work out. He was spot on for the 73' bolt, but his comparisons '73 vs '66 toggles don't match my measurements.