Annealing 45s - Part XXIII

[Coffinmaker]

A good afternoon faithful readers and followers of trivial trivia and factoids galore.  Here we re-visit my feeble and largely unsuccessful attempts to shoot 45 Colt chamber'd rifles and have them shoot "clean."  Thought out many Lustrum of playing with 45 Colt, one thing became painfully clear.  The case won't expand sufficient to seal the chamber, therefore Blow-By is an inevitable by-product.  WAZ!!

Big heavy bullets combined with big heavy powder charges only serve to reduce said blow-by.  Maybe.  I found a very effective method to get rid of the Bane of 45 Shooters.  I start (past tense) with 44-40 cases, resize them with 45 Colt dies and then load and shoot them just as 45 Colt.  The thinner cases expand and seal the chamber nicely.  Way Cool.  THEN:

In/On another thread, one of our other contributors brought up "Annealing" the 45 Colt case, to make it soft enough to Obturate (fancy wurd for expand).  In the past I look'd at annealing with distain.  Too time consuming.  Too much extra effort.  Too Boring.  So I didn't bother to learn the trix.  Then, our other contributor (OD#3) explained the process and how to do it on the cheap and then SHAMED ME into getting off my high horse and trying.  Too say I found it successful is an understatement.  I were Gobsmacked.  Falbbergasted.  Amazedalated.  Not only that, but impressed.  I was able to get a "write off" rifle to run like gang busters.

The past two weekends were the "acid" test of Vulcans Forge.  Shot two matches back to back.  The rifle is a Henry Carbine (OEM Carbine) that won't hold 10 45 Colt cartridges.  Holds 10 45 Schofield.  So I shot the rifle with Annealed 45 Schofield cases.  At the end of TWO matches, Shooting 45 Schofield cases, 200Gr RNFP bullets and lots of APP ........ The carrier block was a clean as the day before the weekends fun and games.  All that was required to clean said rifle, was a wet patch down the bore, a dry patch down the bore and the ubiquitous oily patch.  At waz zit. 

There are contributing factors to 45 Colt Blow-By.  Uberti and "Others" cut very generous chambers.  Uberti often more than just breaks the edge of the Breach end of the chamber.  Brass is way too hard.  However, there is hope for the 45ists.  Annealing your cases can and will completely eliminate Blow-By.  If your some tired of a '92 or a Marlin, or Lightning blasting you in the face with Gun Gas, you can anneal your way to cleanliness and happiness.  Or start with 44-40 Brass.  Since I need to run 45 Schofield, I'm a proud convert to Annealing your cases.  Yepper.

[greenjoytj]

I am going to give this annealing trick a try.
I bought from Loews a Kobalt brand 13 mm deep socket ½” drive its got the black oxide finish.
I would have preferred a chrome finish.
I also have ½” drive adapter to ¼” hex to fit my cordless drill.
The deep socket I bought leaves ~.538” of the case neck and body outside of the shielding socket wall.

I’ll blast 50 cases with the propane torch in a darkened room then dump the case out into a bucket of water.

The trick will be to determine the timing with the torch to achieve annealing.
Somewhere between  4 to 10 seconds I need to watch for brass colour change to gold or dull red and flame colour changing to orange.

The real test of my timing will be to see if the cases expand on firing to seal the chamber.

I hope this works I got a new Winchester 1873 on order an I like to load black powder.

[Coffinmaker]

freenjoyjt,

I have found (and was schooled) that 5 or 6 seconds in the propane flame are just right.  I doubt my thousands ( One Thousand, Two Thousand, Three Thousand) to get the appropriate time in the flame.  I also sit next to a small paint bucket (Childs beach bucket) and dump my freshly annealed cases inna bucket of water to cool (I'm impatient).  My results to date have been Stellar.  Very boring, but stellar.

[Advertising]

[Drydock]

I have a Lee Melter for this.  Fill it 3/4 full of white playground sand.  Set knob to 9, wait a half hour.  A lyman lead thermometer tells me the sand is up around 900+ degrees.  Stick a brass case neck down in the sand for 5 seconds or so, pull and replace.  I usually alternate two.  Drop the heated case in a tub of water.  They don't get "cherry", but you can see the difference on cleaned brass, and it's enough to both seal chambers and greatly extend case life.

[Professor Marvel]

..... I also sit next to a small paint bucket (Childs beach bucket) and dump my freshly annealed cases inna bucket of water to cool (I'm impatient).  .....

Ah My Dear Coffin

actually, quenching the red hot brass in water is essential to the annealing process! One must quickly cool
hot brass to anneal it.

cooling brass slowly lets it get "hard" again.... not work hardened, but stilll.

it is intuitively confusing, since we are so used to the metallurgical processes of steel vs the non ferrous metals...

yhs
prof ( burma shave ) mumbles

[greyhawk]

Ah My Dear Coffin

actually, quenching the red hot brass in water is essential to the annealing process! One must quickly cool
hot brass to anneal it.

cooling brass slowly lets it get "hard" again.... not work hardened, but stilll.

it is intuitively confusing, since we are so used to the metallurgical processes of steel vs the non ferrous metals...

yhs
prof ( burma shave ) mumbles

Ahhh Perfessor   I argued this ages ago - wuz taught it and did it thataway - stood me brass inna shallow tray of H2O - applied heat wid oxy torch - tipped em over inna water when they done - quick easy n it worked ----only to be chastised on this hear forum as an idjit wot shoulda knowed that quenching brass do not make a skerrick of difference  - the chastiser supplied technical references n all - me bein the stubborn sort thanked him kindly fer the advice an carried on regardless --- even if he wuz correct (which I sincerely did not want him to be) my lil system works a treat - is real quick - an it stops the a$$ end of the brass from taking heat and oversoftening. I really do hope you are correct in your thinking that quench does indeed soften brass/copper - even just a teensy bit more softer than no quench would be kool . cheers
Greyhawk

[Professor Marvel]

Greetings my Good Greyhawk

it is a shame you were chastized here... I do hope it wasn't my evil alter ego  me during a fit of brain fever....

here is a tish of discussion with links to actual magical girl metalurgical articles by actual metalurgical experts :

There is some confusion on the topic, partly due to esoteric alloys such as copper-berylium, copper-aluminum,
and copper-nickel which anneal and harden like steel does. 

but common cartridge brass acts like all other comm0n brasses:

"The process of hardening and annealing brass is exactly the reverse of that used with steel.
Brass is hardened when it is heated and allowed to cool slowly ; it is softened or annealed
when heated and cooled suddenly."

from
"Modern Shop Practice", by Howard Monroe Raymond.
  Shop-Practice-V1
   -Hardening-And-Annealing-Brass

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

from
http://www.totalmateria.com/Article71.htm

Hardening of Copper Alloys

"Copper alloys that are hardened through heat treatment are divided into two general types:
those that are softened by high-temperature quenching and hardened by lower-temperature treatments,
and those that are hardened by quenching from high temperatures through martensitic-type reactions."
...
"Quench-hardening alloys comprise aluminum bronzes, nickel-aluminum bronzes, and <b>a few copper-zinc alloys</b>."


cartridge brass falls into the "softened" category.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here we have a long but very well explained article from
Metallography, Microstructure, and Analysis

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13632-013-0074-8

June 2013, Volume 2, Issue 3, pp 190–195 | Cite as
Heat Treating of Nonferrous Alloys
Reprinted from Practical Heat Treating, by Howard E. Boyer, copyright © 1984,
American Society for Metals, Metals Park, Ohio.

hope this helps

later this milleniium we will offer the new series
"Ask Professor Marvel - he knows Dr. Science! "

yhs
prof marvel

[greenjoytj]

actually, quenching the red hot brass in water is essential to the annealing process!
One must quickly cool hot brass to anneal it, cooling brass slowly lets it get "hard" again.... not work hardened, but stilll.
It is intuitively confusing, since we are so used to the metallurgical processes of steel vs the non ferrous metals..

The bane of the inter-web to get accurate information.  To quench or not to quench that is the question?
My web research has the quenchers leading by 50% and the non quencher trailing by 50%.
Yet both camps report complete satisfaction with their annealing process when the cases are used in their firearms.
Therefore both camps are correct in using their respective methods as their results met their needs.
In truth one  method probably does soften the case metal a little more or softens it a little further down the case body.
Which method is best  we’ll never know for sure.

[greyhawk]

Greetings my Good Greyhawk

it is a shame you were chastized here... I do hope it wasn't my evil alter ego  me during a fit of brain fever....

here is a tish of discussion with links to actual magical girl metalurgical articles by actual metalurgical experts :

There is some confusion on the topic, partly due to esoteric alloys such as copper-berylium, copper-aluminum,
and copper-nickel which anneal and harden like steel does. 

but common cartridge brass acts like all other comm0n brasses:

"The process of hardening and annealing brass is exactly the reverse of that used with steel.
Brass is hardened when it is heated and allowed to cool slowly ; it is softened or annealed
when heated and cooled suddenly."

from
"Modern Shop Practice", by Howard Monroe Raymond.
  Shop-Practice-V1
   -Hardening-And-Annealing-Brass

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

from
http://www.totalmateria.com/Article71.htm

Hardening of Copper Alloys

"Copper alloys that are hardened through heat treatment are divided into two general types:
those that are softened by high-temperature quenching and hardened by lower-temperature treatments,
and those that are hardened by quenching from high temperatures through martensitic-type reactions."
...
"Quench-hardening alloys comprise aluminum bronzes, nickel-aluminum bronzes, and <b>a few copper-zinc alloys</b>."


cartridge brass falls into the "softened" category.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here we have a long but very well explained article from
Metallography, Microstructure, and Analysis

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13632-013-0074-8

June 2013, Volume 2, Issue 3, pp 190–195 | Cite as
Heat Treating of Nonferrous Alloys
Reprinted from Practical Heat Treating, by Howard E. Boyer, copyright © 1984,
American Society for Metals, Metals Park, Ohio.

hope this helps

later this milleniium we will offer the new series
"Ask Professor Marvel - he knows Dr. Science! "

yhs
prof marvel

Thank you perfessor - tis all as I had believed - which had led me to continue on regardless with my quench plan - despite the chastisement (which same might have occurred on the other place that I visit)
Did not expect or deserve all this effort from you - but appreciate it - will look forward to "Ask the Perfessor" when it airs .
Brass is interesting.  last century I procured a winchester 70 in 22/250 for perforating skipparoos that were eating my crop - being kind of a W fan I also got their loaded rounds which I proceded to re fill as they got emptied - my first escapade at refilling these kind of shells and man they were tough going - had a lil Aussie made turret press and neck expanding after resize dang near tore the thing off the bench. I could shoot kinda handy at the time so my next door co opted me to help out and we used to go spotlighting skippy on the crops two or three times a week - I didnt like his rifle so elected to use mine and he says well at least use my ammo - ok - I like unloading someone elses ammo with the trigger so we did it - I reclaimed the mptys - he was buyin a lug box of 500 cheap and I got PMC, federal, Rem/umc all of which was so soft on the reload press I couldnt believe it - my W stuff was getting worse each time SO my first venture was neck annealing a swag of those W reloads by the gastorch and quench method - could not believe the difference after - Winchester may have had a reason for it but their once fired cases were so much harder to work with than all the opposition - we ask is the Alloy composition just a tad different or was it their manufacturing / loading procedure that work hardened this stuff ? Interesting ......................................   

[Coffinmaker]

My Good Greyhawk   

I believe I have an answer to the question.  Location, Location, Location.  It would seem your not utilizing the correct form of inverterer!

At your location (the underside of things), the cartridges being downside Up, allows the brass, heated by firing, to flow UP into the neck area, which causes the neck to thicken and become harder.  Your method of annealing has the cases sitting in such a manner, the the neck of the case is actually upside Up, and annealing allows the brass to flow back Down into the case body where it belongs.  Simple Eh??

[greyhawk]

My Good Greyhawk   

I believe I have an answer to the question.  Location, Location, Location.  It would seem your not utilizing the correct form of inverterer!

At your location (the underside of things), the cartridges being downside Up, allows the brass, heated by firing, to flow UP into the neck area, which causes the neck to thicken and become harder.  Your method of annealing has the cases sitting in such a manner, the the neck of the case is actually upside Up, and annealing allows the brass to flow back Down into the case body where it belongs.  Simple Eh??

Lordy me ! the technicalities -----we gonna bamboozle ourselfs with science here soon
never thought about upside down but seems I remember you fellers talkin aboot holdin the shells in pliers or some such - somebody else did em neck down inna lead pot full o sand so so stood on their butts downunder makes it all come right agin eh?
glad we figgered that out - appreciate yr help - coundnadunitmeself.