Author Topic: Carrying More Than One Gun  (Read 67478 times)

1961MJS

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2014, 06:43:54 PM »
Hi

This info is posted elsewhere on the site, but anyway.

I read a book a couple of years ago that was written by a turn of the century (1895-1920 time frame) cowboy.  He kept a lever action rifle and a pistol with him.  The lever action on the horse, and the pistol in his bed roll.  I think he mentioned not shooting the pistol, but using the rifle against wolves sometimes.  His primary method of killing wolves was to lasso them and drag them to death because it didn't waste a bullet.  Wolves must have been more friendly back then...

Just me and a VERY old cowboy's $0.02

Offline flyingcollie

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2014, 07:09:16 PM »
Maybe I haven't read carefully enough, but I don't think anyone yet has mentioned that a six-gun was considered a "tool" in handling rank and wild longhorns and Mexican steers. Occasionally, it was necessary to drop the leaders if a stampede couldn't be turned by gunfire.

I don't think anyone has mentioned personal experience re/ the awkwardness of mounting a horse with a Hollywood two-gun "gunfighter" buscadero rig. As per the cavalryman, many rigs were cross-draw so gun and holster wouldn't be so much in the way when mounting/dismounting. Utility on horseback also favors shorter barrel length than the Army issue 7-1/2".

"Cowboy" history is pretty hard to generalize . . . especially since it's still being written . . .  ;D

Offline Mean Bob Mean

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2014, 07:32:50 PM »
Utility on horseback also favors shorter barrel length than the Army issue 7-1/2".

Rollins observations indicated that the standard pistol carried by a cowboy was the full length barrel models.  I'm with you, for climbing on and off a horse I'd have thought a shorter barrel was handier. 
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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #43 on: Today at 09:30:37 AM »

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2014, 09:25:32 PM »


"Cowboy" history is pretty hard to generalize . . . especially since it's still being written . . .  ;D

Yup! :D

Some in Hollywood, and some on the internet! ::)
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Offline Farmer Tom

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #44 on: March 27, 2014, 11:33:09 AM »
Rollins observations indicated that the standard pistol carried by a cowboy was the full length barrel models.  I'm with you, for climbing on and off a horse I'd have thought a shorter barrel was handier.  

I'm sure someone in here can find the actual prices right quick, but I'd imagine that "standard" 7 1/2" models woulda been cheaper, then as now.

And since we're talking about cowhands, that didn't make a whole lot of money...

Offline Mean Bob Mean

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #45 on: March 27, 2014, 01:56:56 PM »
I'm sure someone in here can find the actual prices right quick, but I'd imagine that "standard" 7 1/2" models woulda been cheaper, then as now.

And since we're talking about cowhands, that didn't make a whole lot of money...

Well, and I always carried longer barrels because of the sighting plane.  I wasn't thinking of shooting a guy across a table but of shooting a Mountain Lion or Rabbit in the distance etc.  I wanted velocity and better aim.  
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Offline St. George

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #46 on: March 27, 2014, 02:54:15 PM »
Most carried longer barrels because most weren't that good a shot, and a longer barrel has a lesser margin of error.

Take a look at Rattenbury's 'Packing Iron' and you'll see a heavy selection of long-barrelled Colts, Remingtons, Smith & Wessons and everything else.

Colt SAA barrel lengths - date of the first factory models made in the following lengths:

7 1/2" - first introduced in 1873

5 1/2" - first introduced in 1875

4 3/4" - first introduced in 1879

This doesn't mean that they made it 'out West' at that time - to be sold as regular shelf stock - only that the length was cataloged as being available.

Cowboys bought what was available at the time they were at the store, and had the money - and after buying new clothes, a bath and a shave, maybe new boots or even a new saddle and a bit of a good time - given the wages of 'Forty a Month and Found' - there wasn't much left before they were either cut loose from the drive, or went back to the brand.

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Offline RobMancebo

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2014, 12:25:01 PM »
Good thread. 

-  I recall reading about a farmer in the Dakotas who had converted a pair of caplock .44s to fire cartridges.  He wore those guns proudly and was infamous for getting drunk in town and on the way home would frequently decide to camp-- in the middle of the road.  He'd just rip up fence posts and light a fire in the middle of the road.  If anyone came along and tried to kick out his fire to pass along the road, he'd drunkenly let loos with those guns. 

He was considered a sort of a local menace.   
----------
 Somewhere I have a copy of an interview with a Texas Ranger from 1902.  He said that all the Rangers he knew at the time carried a pair of Colts.  They would draw and aim both hand guns at a perp before identifying themselves as Rangers.  There was less trouble that way. 
--------- 
One historical remembrance by a fellow talked about a cowboy on a train getting drunk and shooting up the car a little bit with a pair of pistols.  No one stopped him.  But when he shot the end off a man's cigar, a railroad agent drew a pocket gun and blew his brains out.   


If people carried and what guns people carried, really depended upon time and place.   


Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2014, 12:52:12 PM »
SO! To sum it all up;

Three kinds of folks were known to carry more than one gun;
1. Law enforcement
2. Hardened criminals
3. CRAZY drunken anal-apertures  (BTW; spell check knows this term!)

Others only when there was need and availability
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
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Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”

Offline Farmer Tom

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #49 on: March 28, 2014, 01:18:13 PM »
SO! To sum it all up;

Three kinds of folks were known to carry more than one gun;
1. Law enforcement
2. Hardened criminals
3. CRAZY drunken anal-apertures  (BTW; spell check knows this term!)

Others only when there was need and availability

I'd probably add ANYONE with the means to procure a second pistol who expected to get into a fight.

Just to add further confusion to this though, I remember reading a report from the Johnson County war, from some sort of LE, on the weapons confiscated.

It included details on person, number and type of guns, and cartridge belts etc... I remember being surprised to read how many of the rifles were "big-bore" vs 73's chambered for smaller rounds.

Seems like most of the smaller cartridge rifles were from the individuals that gave a more southern home of record than the Wyoming boys. I think I also remember just about the only instances of more than one pistol being the southern (TX/NM) boys too.

But I've slept a few times since I read it, so...

Offline RobMancebo

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #50 on: March 28, 2014, 05:06:19 PM »
SO! To sum it all up;

Three kinds of folks were known to carry more than one gun;
1. Law enforcement
2. Hardened criminals
3. CRAZY drunken anal-apertures  (BTW; spell check knows this term!)

Others only when there was need and availability
 

Now that hits just about plumb center.  Carrying A sidearm to protect yourself is being careful, carrying 2 or more is advertising that you're looking for someone to use them on.  Big difference! 

Offline Mean Bob Mean

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #51 on: March 30, 2014, 01:24:33 PM »
I'd probably add ANYONE with the means to procure a second pistol who expected to get into a fight.

It included details on person, number and type of guns, and cartridge belts etc... I remember being surprised to read how many of the rifles were "big-bore" vs 73's chambered for smaller rounds.

Quite likely.  Hunting game in the mountains and plains requires a tad more "carry" than the average .44-40 allows.  Roosevelt loved him some Sharps and Winchester big bore guns.
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Offline TwoWalks Baldridge

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2014, 06:16:13 PM »
Seems to me there is little bit of confusion based on the original posting"

Quote
Some folks have a problem with CAS Shooters using more than one gun.

The argument being that a Cowboy couldn't afford more than one gun.

Well, not everyone was a Cowboy and some Cowboys did better than others.

Is the question being asked if folks carried more than one "gun" or is the intent did they carry more than one "Revolver".



When guns are banned, fear the man with a hammer

Offline Mean Bob Mean

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #53 on: March 30, 2014, 06:46:59 PM »
Is the question being asked if folks carried more than one "gun" or is the intent did they carry more than one "Revolver".

Did they carry two revolvers, or how common was it anyway.  The story he references is about a group of prospectors in Apache Territory.  I think it's reasonable to assume they were well armed.  How common was it for basic Cowboys after 1873 riding the range?  Not very common according to what has been postulated or found so far, unless they were lawmen/outlaws or dandies posing as tough men.  That is not to say it did not occur, but it was less likely than the movies and magazines made out that glorified the period.  

My question is:  what has that to do with CAS scenarios?  Nothing to my mind, we're about the myth as much as the reality to my thinking.  
"We tried a desperate game and lost. But we are rough men used to rough ways, and we will abide by the consequences."
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Offline Gus Walker

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #54 on: April 03, 2014, 12:18:43 PM »
 ;D Love reading the differant opinions on this. I tend to think unless you were a lawman, guard. outlaw or Cavalryman.there wernt much use for a handgun.Most every body would have had a rifle or a shotgun maybe for hunting and self protection with the odd military surplus colt or remington living its life loaded in a drawer.  So as to the origanal post I doubt  the average person carried more than one gun. And the yprofessionals only when they were going in harms way.  Just my two cents and worth every penny.
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Offline bowiemaker

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #55 on: April 03, 2014, 01:08:37 PM »
I don’t think it was common at all. $20-$50 for a new gun was a big purchase for a cowboy making $1 a day. Townspeople who might better be able to afford it were likely to be banned from carrying guns in town or if they did, it was likely in a coat pocket.

Nearly all of the period photographs were staged and people probably armed up to make an impression. Studio photos often used props for effect. Having a photograph made was special occasion and many people might not have had more than a couple of photos in their lifetime. The cameras needed long exposure times even in daylight and the subjects had to hold still for several seconds so impromptu or real action photos were rare.
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Offline Mean Bob Mean

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #56 on: April 03, 2014, 02:07:28 PM »
I don’t think it was common at all. $20-$50 for a new gun was a big purchase for a cowboy making $1 a day. Townspeople who might better be able to afford it were likely to be banned from carrying guns in town or if they did, it was likely in a coat pocket.

Nearly all of the period photographs were staged and people probably armed up to make an impression. Studio photos often used props for effect. Having a photograph made was special occasion and many people might not have had more than a couple of photos in their lifetime. The cameras needed long exposure times even in daylight and the subjects had to hold still for several seconds so impromptu or real action photos were rare.


Yeah in his treatise on Tombstone, Guinn notes that the Earp Posse likely rented guns to arm up and the expense of rented guns, horses, etc. weighed them down. 

See:  Guinn, J. 2001.  The Last Gunfight: The Real Story of the Shootout at the O.K. Corral-And How It Changed the American West.  Simon and Schuster, New York, NY. 
"We tried a desperate game and lost. But we are rough men used to rough ways, and we will abide by the consequences."
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Offline flyingcollie

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #57 on: April 03, 2014, 08:22:38 PM »
FWIW, that's a good read ! IMHO

Offline RobMancebo

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #58 on: April 05, 2014, 06:43:10 AM »
I don’t think it was common at all. $20-$50 for a new gun was a big purchase for a cowboy making $1 a day. Townspeople who might better be able to afford it were likely to be banned from carrying guns in town or if they did, it was likely in a coat pocket.

Nearly all of the period photographs were staged and people probably armed up to make an impression. Studio photos often used props for effect. Having a photograph made was special occasion and many people might not have had more than a couple of photos in their lifetime. The cameras needed long exposure times even in daylight and the subjects had to hold still for several seconds so impromptu or real action photos were rare.

 

-  Remember, 2,200,000 men fought for the Union during the Civil War.  When they were mustered out of service (those that survived) were given their choice of a rifle and a pistol to take home with them.  Lots of returning Vets went West to make a new start. 
- Remington .46 transition revolvers came out in the early 1870s at the retail price of $9 and if you grab an early 1900's mail order catalogue you'll find lots of handguns in the $1.75-$6. range.   
-  Coat pocket guns were always a really good seller.  As I recall, the little 1849 'Baby dragoon' .32 was made all the way into the 1870's and was one of Colt's best sellers.  So Yes, lots of folks had a gun in their pocket, or could carry one if they felt they needed to. 
-  I don't have my Flayderman's guide available at the moment (Library is still packed), but as I recall, All the famous percussion guns, Colt and Remington .36's & .44's, ran over the 250,000s during their production.  (smaller 'police' models ran, I think, above the 150,000s). 

Remember, a 'cowboy' was a legend in his own mind. ;)   They often did things like carrying guns or going to town in flashy clothing on Saturday night, just because they thought that's what a 'cowboy' should do. 

That is a good point about 'period photos' being staged.  That's probably why so many of the cartridge belts have no cartridges in them.  However there are also period writings documenting how people were armed. Sometimes everyone in an area rode around heavily armed, other times nobody rode around armed.  Just depended upon time and place.  Elmer Keith wrote about offering to shoot it out with a sheriff who had threatened him in the early 1900s.  My mother still remembers my great-great Uncle buckling on his .45 to go and talk to someone about what they'd been saying about him in Spearfish, that would've been in the 30s. As I've been told, my great-great aunt's ranch hand still wore a .45 when he went to Deadwood on Saturday nights.  My mom said that she always remembered him polishing up all the cartridges in his belt as a part of getting ready to go 'do the town'. 

Like driving a fancy car, sometimes people do things they don't need or can't afford just 'cause they want to.

Offline WaddWatsonEllis

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2014, 11:19:55 PM »
Hi,

After reviewing all THREE PAGES of this thread, I slipped into my bathroom and weighed my 5 & 1/2" Rugers ( 2 & 1/2 Lbs each; probably 3 Lbs. loaded) ...

Then I loaded the leather for two Colts (again, no powder or ball nut a Big Bowie and sheath added). The result was 10 Lbs.

So if I was a cowboy, I would let the HORSE carry the extra four Lbs of weight in the saddlebags, and only pull out the extra hogleg (and possible holster) when i needed it.

Just my $0.02


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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

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