Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => BROW => Topic started by: Drydock on November 03, 2020, 02:26:06 PM
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Took the Shiloh out to the farm today for some sight work. Very basic loading, the Accurate 51-630r, 20-1 lead-tin, over 70 grains OE 2f, compression die, WLR primer, Starline case. No wads. Unsized, Beeswax/olive oil lube. Seated over cross sticks. 30" barrel, 1/22 twist.
Recoil: Not bad at all. Rifle is 11.5 lbs, velocity around 1100 fps. Shot some 450 goverment loads to warm up/foul, did not seem a whole lot different. Maybe prone . . .
Initial sight setting (MVA 108) was 25. 100 yard group under 3", 6" low. Raised to 30, same group, dead on. (Yay!) Extrapolating from the charts in back of "Black Powder Reloading Primer" Garbe & Venturino, 200 yard setting should hit 15" high over the 100 yard group. Dialed the sight up to 40. Same hold, next group 15" higher.
Now I did not load a lot of rounds, thought I'd spend them figuring out the 100 yard setting. It was a lazy afternoon, walking back and forth to the 100 yard target. But all this went a lot easier than I thought it would. Had 1 round left. My brother had cleared a lane and hung an AR500 66% ipsc silhouette out at 200 yards the day before. Leaving the sight set on 40, sighted on it and touched off the last round. A nice solid hit, target and stand fell over. Another nice walk out to reset it. I suppose the .50 hits harder than his .223s.
Damn, but the .50-70 is just easy to work with. Need to cast a LOT more of these big bullets.
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I'm not familiar with that bullet but the name seems to imply it is a 630g projectile. Is that right? Seems a little heavy for a 50-70. But then, all my past experience was through a NY Militia Rolling Block and I shot the 425g Lyman bullet over a heavily compressed 65g of FFg GOEX. This was some 25-30 years ago. (smile)
Dave
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http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=51-630R
It's heavy all right, but works well in the .50-70 if you've got a fast twist, heavy rifle, and want to go past 200 yards. Don't shoot it in a carbine! If you ever want to shoot BPCR Silhouette you need something like this for the .50s, the 450 is way too wind sensitive. And yes, it also helps to be crazy enough to want to shoot a .50 to begin with! ::)
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Was sure a nice day for it. Been too busy working on the new house for any shooting here. :(
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Drydock,
I asked because I recently purchased a used Shiloh Business Rifle in 50-90 2-1/2" Sharps Straight. One source lists the original factory load being either a "473g greased" bullet or a "540g paper patch". Your 630g seemed outside those perameters, hence the question.
With my aging eyesight and disabled condition I'll never shoot beyond 200 yards if that much. I just want to know what it was like to shoot a Big Fifty buffalo rifle.
Dave
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Oh yes, historically the 50s were loaded with relatively light bullets, and never seen as Target Cartridges. Buffalo were usually shot between 100-200 yards. I'm definatly outside the original parameters, but I've got my Chiappa Carbine for that. Although the rifle does shoot the goverment load very well.
Your rifle probably has the 1/36 twist, and will love the goverment weight bullets. Have fun! ;D
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A great start - and a portent of good things to come!
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When I called Shiloh to ask about the groove diameter (I have since measured it) and twist they said all their 50 calibers have always been 1-22". That's why I never considered the Lyman 425g design and have found a 480g from BACO that's close to the 473 original, if they ever get them back in stock. My reconstructed right shoulder is begging me not to go to anything over 500g even though I have a Magnum shooting pad to wear. LOL
Dave
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I think I was told that my Shiloh 50-70 carbine had a 1x26" twist. Stabilizes even heavy bullets.
Much more pleasant to shoot with 375 and 450 gr bullets!
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Check the twist just to be sure. While the standard twist is 1/22, they do offer the 1/36 on request, and many do request it.
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Back out to the farm again. Wanted to shoot up some of my government loads to free up more brass for the big bullets. A pleasant surprise to me is that the 450s shoot to the same sight settings as the 630s, at least out to 200 yards. Nice tight groups on steel at both ranges. The 1/22 twist seems to shoot the lighter bullet just fine. Need to break out the chainsaw and brush hog and see if we can get back to 300 yards before we get to the bluff back there.
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Spent some time out at Jerrys farm (where we hold the GAF Grand Muster) in Nebraska. He has an excellent long range set up out there. I shot both my 450 grain Government loads and my 630 long rangers. Found that the 450s work great out to 300 yards, but get very wind sensitive past that. I used the MVA "B" scope out to 400 yards until it ran out of elevation. Hits with it on the rifle were stupid easy! Past that I put on an MVA mid range Vernier.
While the 450 was wind sensitive, the 630 seemed to barely notice, and really hammered the 400 yard target. I then started walking it out to the 600 yard steel. Took 4 shots to find the range, but that final clang felt dang good. Good line the whole way, just kept adding elevation. I hope to get out to 800 some day, it looks like I've got plenty enough elevation left on the staff to do it with this load. Need to get a higher rear sight block for the scope too.
One of these days I want to go to the "Q". Something for the retirement bucket list.
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When you go to the Quigley, let me know and I'll try to go with you.
You're making me wish I'd gotten my sharps out that afternoon.
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You're basically on the way, I'll stop by and pick you up. (someday) Its the weekend before the GM weekend. Pretty much looking at a two week shooting holiday. You need a spotter for the Quigley so you would be useful . . .
https://www.quigleymatch.com/
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We oughta try this sometime. Lot closer. https://www.sageoutfitters.com/ccms/index.cfm/events/sagebrush-match-2021/
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Got some new MVA sight inserts, lot finer cross hairs and open centers. And a 30 minute higher rear mount block for the scope. Out to the farm again. On at 100 now puts the scope at the bottom of the adjustment range, got a full 120 minutes above that now. Should get me past 500. Might be close to 600, Won't know until I get on a good range to find out. Should be good for a Medium Range Match. Could not do much with the Vernier sights, wrong time of day, washed out the targets back in the brush.
Shot several groups under 2" at 100 yards, this rifle REALLY likes that 630 grainer. Did some cross stick shooting, picked up a little bamboo shower stool just the right height for my cross sticks. Lets me get a good elbows on knees rest. Groups open up to 3" or so, still figuring out best breathing and stability off the sticks. But a fun afternoon.
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fun watching Quigley 2021
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCutbUvedrMX8XWj3N43524g
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Grand time at the KVC Buffalo shoot. 30 shots on 30 steel buffalo knock downs at various unknown ranges. Know your loads and sights and be good at range guesstimating. They weigh 60 lbs or so, stuck with the 630s. 30 hits, 29 "kills". (One took 2 shots). Good folks, good food, great time.
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Have you been able to shoot this rig out past 600 yards yet? I’m curious as I’ve been following your threads on this rifle and am considering an order for something similar. I’ve already got two .50-70 Shilohs but neither is properly configured for target shooting at longer ranges. Like you I’ve got a thing for the 50 “Gubmint” and am intrigued by the potential of this round at silhouette distances and beyond.
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No, there's nowhere around my home where I can shoot past 300. Most of my shooting is on the farm at 200 for now. We're hoping at the 2022 Grand Muster to perhaps have a "Billy Dixon" shot (1538 yards) set up. I have gotten an MVA "Buffalo" long range Soule sight for it. That should give me plenty of elevation for longer shots. The Scope elevation will be maxed out at 600.
Having said all that, I really see this as a Mid-Range rifle (200-600 yards). I have another Shiloh on order that will someday be my dedicated Long Range (700-1000 yards) rifle. An 1877 in 45-70. (I know I can use longer, but I like to stick with Government cases)
Having said that, the consistency of this heavy bullet load is fantastic, and I look forward to playing with it a great deal. IMHO it certainly achieves the accuracy needed for silhouette, if you can put up with the recoil! I think out to 600 I would run it against any other caliber for pure accuracy. Maybe further if I get the chance to try it. I can say for hammering knock down targets there is nothing better!
Keep an eye out for Croft Barkers "50-70 shooters handbook".
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We’re lucky to have two ranges on our island. The one near sea level is a little over 400 yards long and we have one up in the mountains that goes a little past 1800. Both usually get snowed in this time of year and the high elevation range probably won’t be open again until June. I dabble in a little long range shooting with a heavy-barreled .30-06 and 16x scope, however it’s almost too easy with a flat-shooting modern cartridge and quality long range optic. Learning to shoot longer ranges with the .50-70 I hope to gain a better understanding of doping wind and gauging bullet drop while using 19th-century technology.
But I’m also interested in pushing the limits of the .50-70 with black powder to see how far it can be made to shoot with reasonable accuracy, given the limitations of the cartridge especially case capacity. At some point rifle, cartridge and/or shooter will come up against the practical limits of what can be accomplished. I agree with you that the .50-70 is probably best at 600 yards and less. To push much beyond that, I will likely end up paper patching to get max powder behind the longer bullets and stretch out the range some. I do have Croft Barker’s excellent .50-70 Shooter’s Handbook. Although he’s done some great study on using heavy bullets in this cartridge, it seems to me there’s quite a bit of uncharted territory starting where his studies left off. I’m just about to order a rifle that will hopefully be suitable for wringing out the long distance potential of the .50 Gov’t cartridge. But I’ll be watching your posts as well for updates on your own long distance efforts with this cartridge. Keep ‘em coming!
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The Sagebrush shoot in Alliance is a nice shoot. I've been the last two years from south Texas. It's a long hike, but worth the effort. While I've not been to Quigley, I see from the match descriptions that you actually shoot more rounds at Sagebrush and at longer distances - out to 1,000 yards. It does get challenging when you get to the longer ranges with wind from multiple directions through the ravines and over the hills! ::)
I've got a new '74 C Sharps 45-70 that I'm working on dialing in for this years match. I took it this year and did OK, but really hadn't had a chance to optimize the load at that point. Still managed to place in the top 1/3, so was quite happy.
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Update: winter is too damn long.
Carry on.
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Winter is shooting season in the central Arizona desert. Summer can kill you out there. Saturday the 4th I'm going to meet a friend who has found a stretch of BLM land with a nice hill for a backstop and nobody else around. Shooting distance will be determined by how far we are willing to haul targets. Given my physical condition I may settle for spotting a particularly attractive rock on the hillside and with the help of his rangefinder pot away at it from my crossed sticks.
I need to empty some 50-90 Sharps Straight brass, especially those loaded with the 505g bullets I tried. Dang do they hurt the rebuilt shoulder after a few rounds. I also need to put the restored Rem RB Sporting Rifle on paper, at least at 50 yards, to see if it's 135 year old barrel, which wasn't restored, will shoot. If it does I'll turn it's attention to a distant rock or two. (smile)
Dave
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Almost 20 years ago now I left central Florida (no winter, hot or extra hot most of the year) for Southeast Alaska (6 months of winter, cold and rainy most of the year when it ain’t snowing). One of these days I’m going to seek a happy medium somewhere in between. Meanwhile 5-9” of snow on the way here tomorrow.
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I'm in the middle of Missouri Tease Weather: 60+ and sunny on workdays, 30 degrees, snow and sleet on your days off. >:(
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Yeah, mostly the same here except that Sunday was Gorgeous! 65, sunny, no wind. I shot almost all day.
Today when I came to work, it was -5 air temp 30 MPH wind and flurries
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Finally stopped raining long enough to get out to the farm. Wanted to try out an MVA 10X A scope I'd just received. Ordered it for an 1877 45-70 still 2 years away. (MVA warned a significant price increase is coming, best to get it now. Let's go Brandon)
Shot several 5 shot groups under 2 moa at 200 yards. This is a great scope, with a centerless mildot reticle and Winchester #2 mounts.
It's too much for this rifle though. Back into the box it goes to await its proper mount. The B5 goes back on the 50.
MVA makes great stuff! ;D
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Finally stopped raining long enough to get out to the farm.
You Suck! ;)
We haven't had any meaningful moisture since before the Grand Muster Last year. This may be the driest I've ever seen my place.
I got a Lyman 5A a few weeks ago. It's going on the 1903-A5 I had built for Vintage Sniper Competition. I may send it in to get it serviced next winter, but overall it looks pretty good.
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You're welcome to come down and siphon some up. Ground around here is so damn saturated the septic tanks won't drain. :o
At least my load is set. Now I've got to work on the wobble behind the trigger.
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Grand time at the KVC Buffalo Shoot. Used the Soule this time, tied for 1st with 24 kills out of 30. Lost by one round in the shootoff when I overestimated the range and went Juuuuust over a pepper popper target at around 300 yards. Good folks, good food, good drinks, good time. Trap puts on a great match.