Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Winchester Model 1876 => Topic started by: Grizzly Adams on May 09, 2014, 06:19:03 PM
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At the suggestion of Postman63, I am setting stickies for load data. If you have pet loads for the 40/60 WCF, please share them here. As always, use caution when posting and when using data posted on this and any other forum. :)
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40/60wcf BP. load. This load for the 40/60wcf is one of three different loads that are used in an original 1876 Winchester 22"oct.barrel straight grip rifle. The rifle has been modified from its factory 28" barrel that was cut down to 22" at sometime in its past. The bore was rough when I acquired the rifle and after many different tries at getting it to shoot with the old rough bore . The decision was made to re-line the old rifle. The ROT that was chosen is 1 x 22" . I felt that this ROT would give the ability to shoot the original 210gr. Winchester bullet and also allow the 40/60wcf to use bullets of greater weight . Bullets of 255gr. and upwards of 280gr. have been tested and found to be very accurate in this rifle at distances out to 200yds. The first load is one that I consider although not exactly like the original but is very close to the original load used in these old 40/60's .The bullet is cast using soft lead in an original Winchester mould marked 40/60wcf. It is loaded as cast @ .406" and lubed with 50/50 bees wax and deer tallow into a Jamison case over 55gr. by weight of 2ff Swiss bp. NO wad . A std. large rifle primer is used CCI or Winchester work very well in this load. All of this is assembled using an original Winchester reloading tong tool marked 40/60wcf. I have not tested this load for velocity or SD. Loads for my bp. rifles are tested for accuracy and function. This load has proven to be great for both. This is a very mild load in this rifle that is pleasant to shoot at the range and has proven to be very effective on mid size game such as deer and wild boar. Although I load and shoot all four of the 1876 Winchester cartridges, This rifle barrel and load combo. has become the 1876 Winchester caliber that gets the most use by me for most of my target shooting and hunting. Easy on the rifle Easy on reloading components very accurate and deadly on game ,handy to carry makes this a favorite of mine. If you have ever considered getting an 1876 Model 40/60wcf ,,,,,Do So! you will not be disappointed .,,,,,,DT
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Thanks for this write up Mr. Dusty!! Original rifle loaded with original tools, don't get any better than that!
PB
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" FINALLY", Thank you "Dusty". ---- How much for the reline? ( if I may ask).
Hootmix.
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" FINALLY", Thank you "Dusty". ---- How much for the reline? ( if I may ask).
How Do Mr. Slamfire. Hope Y'all had a very Merry Christmas. The barrel reline cost in cash was very low . But cost me many hrs. standing at my lathe ,I did it the hard way and turned down a new old stock barrel that one of my old friends had . But it was worth it . Although something I would not want to do often. ,,,,,,,,,DT
Hootmix.
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One shot from the 40/60 M76 sent this wild hog to the smokehouse . Nothing like hunting with the old time guns,,,,,,DT
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Dusty o'l son that's ,,,,,,,cool! It looks like he ( she ) droped right there.
Hootmix.
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Very nice! Congrates!
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Very well done! That is the way to fill the smoke house!!
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Hey fellows ,thats what made me dig up that pic. from last fall. Yesterday I was finishing the cureing of the hams on that hog. Time to go get a few more . Wish Yall the best ,,,,,DT
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Good shot DT!
This little piggy went to the market,
this little piggy stayed home,
this little piggy went WEE WEE WEE, all the way to the freezer!
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I know this is a kinda old, but very useful thread. I recently came into a Winchester model 1876 in 40-60WCF. Interesting rifle and caliber. I finally got all my brass, lead, primers and powder. I have used the powder ACCURATE Smokeless powder 5744, before for my 45-60 and it worked very well. So, that is what I used for the 40-60 caliber.
Here is the information from my chronograph on 9/9/2016 :
Winchester Model 1876 - Caliber 40-60 WCF - Barrel length is 23.5" Oct - I bought two different weights from a fantastic outfit up in Montana - Montana Bullet Works. Great people.
209gr Montanta Bullet Works .406 Dia - 19gr of 5744 - Win Large Primers - 40-60 WCF JBA Brass - OAL is 2.20"
Hi Vel - 1212, Lo Vel - 1179, ES - 33, SD - 11.5, AV Vel - 1200
243gr Montanta Bullet Works .406 Dia - 19gr of 5744 - Win Large Primers - 40-60 WCF JBA Brass - OAL is 2.25"
Hi Vel - 1206, Lo Vel - 1165, ES - 41, SD - 13.4, AV Vel - 1183
I only shot for the velocity information , and know that I will try to get the velocity up over 1300fps. I will start with 22grains of 5744 next and see where that takes me. I am going to put it on paper and see which weight bullet groups the best.
Nice recoil so far.
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OKDEE,,I just ordered the same ,,be here end of next week. Don't have a chronograph,,so will be interested in what you find .
Hootmix.
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It's been awhile,,,but i'v loaded some 210grs. w/ H 4198.
Chaparral-24" barrel______OAL w/ 210gr.LFN. 2.35 --2.40,,Loaded w/1884 Ideal 40/60 tong's.
started w/ 25grs._____H4198 no chro. no sign's of pressure.
load w/ 26grs. _______H4198 " " " " " " .
More soon as I can .",, THESE LOADS ARE NOT FOR ORIGINAL 1876's",,Quoting the 49th Lyman Reloading Manual.
All other disclaimer apply. Hootmix.
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Yep!! back again,,
Loading ,TB,,13.7 gr. don't have cohno.,,but loading by the book( 49th lyman) below max ,dead on at 100 yds.
Shoots clean, 200 gr. cast,ww primers & cci primers and fed's ,all work ok!, 45/70 resized cases & starline some 40/60,,some 45/70. It don't make my chappie no never mind,,2.225 all the way to 2.250,. Working up 245gr. cast w/ TB,,will post info.
These load's work smooth in my own rifle,,,use at your own discression,,all other disclaimers apply.
smoke'm if y'a got'm Hootmix.
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Thought I smell 't powder burn in the air , What lube are you using there old pard , ,,,,,DT
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"SPG" ,I had ordered these bullets a while back from "Buffalo Arms",,, have called several bullet co.'s,,no one has 200-205gr. in .406,,"BA"'s bullets are .50 ceents ea.,,,,,,,,whoa,,,,,bought a .406 mould w/handles,,looking at old blasti caster( 40# pot) to do my own,,,.
smok'm if y'a got'm,,,Hootmix.
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I got one. made in 1884 in 40-60.
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My hats off to ya' Mike ,love shoot'n mine ,just made a short range tang sight for mine w/ 3 eye pcs. cut a steel 6" ruler 1/8" wide and used small brass rivets to attach on the side for elev. adj. 8) Loading some rds. to go try out the sight ,, after " Turkey-day " .
smoke'm if ya' got'm ,, Hootmix .
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The bore looks warn on this one, need to give it a good clean over the next week and see what we have. I have a Uberti in 45-60 as well but wanted a original
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Hey Mike,, didg'a get the 40-60 bore cleaned yet ,, how'd it shoot ??
smoke'm if ya' got'm ,, Hootmix.
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Today brought the 1876 Winchester 40-60 wcf out to the bench , I had 62 rounds loaded for at least two yrs . and thought I would fire them and see if that much time loaded had any ill effects on the home brew lube of deer tallow /bees wax and a touch of olive oil . Wind is Howling here in Texas today a front coming in from NM . so I had to limit the yardage to 75 yd. I gave the bore a wipe after every 20 rounds with the last string running 22 rounds . Could not tell any difference in accuracy High wind and all. The little 22" 40-60 is a shooter . No wonder it is one of my favorite hog stompers , when that thing cracks they drop like they were hit with an ax . Heading out to the loading bench now that the cases are dry . Will reload the 62 cases in preparation of our upcoming hunt .Good Shooting ,,,DT
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I would rather shoot my 40-60 than eat when I'm hungry . Just finished loading 65 rds.( smokless ),,and it's raining ,, hard the next couple'a days. I see your 40-60 tool's are 2 pcs. mine is a 1 pc, w/ a screwed up bullet mould on the end,,but it does make really nice looking rds. I use a Lyman # 403168 ,, 205-208 gr..406 dia. ( as cast ) home lube,, case are trimmed to 1.885-1.887 ,, rds . come to OAL 2.235-2.240 . AS a side note I also deprime and prime my 44-40 cases w/ my 40-60 tool . Old tools are just COOL .
Have a Merry Christmas and a Great New Year.
coffee time ,, Hootmix.
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The 40-82 wcf mold as cast drops @ .406 " and 255 gr. works great in the 40-60 wcf. Loaded 22 with this bullet and the other 40 cases with the 40-60 wcf bullet as cast @ .406" and weighing @ 210 gr. Upped the powder to 58 gr. 2ff Swiss , same lube mentioned before in a Jamison case and Winchester primer . You are right the old tong tools are great . What I use most unless I have a problem case to get a wrinkle out of or something else . How could you not like the 40-60 wcf , a very efficient cartridge , its a Cracker !,,,DT
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A question if I may. 40-60, I see Dusty has Jamison brass. I looked at Starline and they have 40-65 brass. Is that the same dimensions that just needs to be shortened down a bit or something completely different? I also see that 40-60 are formed from 45-70. Just wondering.
As a side note, if anyone missed the other thread, I scored 100 NEW Jamison 45/75 cases! That should last me my lifetime. Happy New Year everyone.
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Frussss-tration !!! when I get to many irons in my fire ,, the only way for me to sort things out is ,, yup ,, go shoot a few good or bad ,, come back better mood. Soo went the other day ,, wind was up 20-30mph,,50 yds,, 65rds. single load ,( like a sharps ) no wiping ,, heyyyy,, quick sight ,shoot ,,quick sight ,shoot,,( I don't need no stink'n magazine ) some even hit center,, BUT that wasn't the point ,,,just shoot. I totally " LOVE " my 40-60 ,,26.5 gn's. of H-4198 w/ 208 gn. cast @ .406-.408 ,,. I THINK the 40-60 has been under rated as far as power ,,there is plenty ,,. My loads were shot in a Chaparral x 26",, please consult your loading manual for original Winchester's ,, Now go shoot your " Frusss-tration ".
smoke'm if ya' got'm,, Hootmix.
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Glad to see this post.Picked up a 76 in 40/60 at Winterrange for the right price.Needs a lot of work but for the price I can put some into it
Largo
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Largo,,, you won't be sorry,, what brand is your new " project ".
smoke'm if ya' got'm ,, Hootmix.
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Hey, LargoKC4440 ,, how did your " 76 " project turn out ???
smoke'm if ya' got'm ,, Hootmix.
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Sorry Slamfire i've been gone for a while.
I got the lever straightened out, Dent worked out of the tube & some parts for it.The Gunsmith has it rite now to make sure the frame is ok. Will have to send it off to get it lined in the future.
Largo.
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Forgot ,It is an original 76.Can't find SN# on it though.
Largo
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Origional !!!! that's cool. Sure need some pics. 8)
smoke'm if ya' got'm ,, Hootmix.
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YUP ! "Honey i'm home ",, I have been asking , looking , reading, if anyone has tried RL7 ( also known as Rx7 ) in their 40-60's,, no one ,, nada , zilch, read where it was used in the 40-65 and a few other bottle necks. I use H-4198 w/ 200-215gr. bullets ( 403168 .406 dia.) @ BHN 10-13 ,, ( pencil test ) and since both powders are full capacity powders ( in the 44-40wcf ), that is what I based my loads on.
I loaded 5 rds. starting 27grs, ( which is what I load normally for my 40-60 ) up 2grs. at a time to 28grs. ,, don't have a chrony. but nothing broke , exploded, & no bad looking primers, ( my chappie strikes off center ), no plum of smoke,, so I will be trying a few more as I get time,, but !! These are loads for me and my rifle ( YMMV ) , in a modern firearm w/ WWLRP. I didn't feel any difference in recoil , fired 1 rd. ( last rd. ) @ 300yds. ,12" bull, 6" above center ;D ,,, time to go. I think the RL7 will be another usable powder.
coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.
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YUP ! "Honey i'm home ",, I have been asking , looking , reading, if anyone has tried RL7 ( also known as Rx7 ) in their 40-60's,, no one ,, nada , zilch, read where it was used in the 40-65 and a few other bottle necks. I use H-4198 w/ 200-215gr. bullets ( 403168 .406 dia.) @ BHN 10-13 ,, ( pencil test ) and since both powders are full capacity powders ( in the 44-40wcf ), that is what I based my loads on.
I loaded 5 rds. starting 27grs, ( which is what I load normally for my 40-60 ) up 2grs. at a time to 28grs. ,, don't have a chrony. but nothing broke , exploded, & no bad looking primers, ( my chappie strikes off center ), no plum of smoke,, so I will be trying a few more as I get time,, but !! These are loads for me and my rifle ( YMMV ) , in a modern firearm w/ WWLRP. I didn't feel any difference in recoil , fired 1 rd. ( last rd. ) @ 300yds. ,12" bull, 6" above center ;D ,,, time to go. I think the RL7 will be another usable powder.
coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.
When you gonna start shooting Real GUNPOWDER in that thang ,lol ? ,,,DT
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Haaaaaw,, I LOVE THIS PLACE !!!!!
coffee's ready ,,Hootmix. ;D
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Just stumbled across Robertson Cartridge Company. They make correctly labeled .40-60 Winchester brass, along with a bunch of others. Pricey, but what isn't?
https://www.rccbrass.com/
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Ouch - around $5/round is expensive. I'm sure it's good brass and they would make rim to fit your specs I'm sure. I ordered Jamison brass from https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/23110 at $20 for 20 rounds, of course there's an extra $10 shipping. Now I mostly make my 40-60 brass from Starline 45-70 brass. While it doesn't have the correct headstamp it's easy to ID due to the bottleneck shape.
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New load data ! With & with out fillers . Chaparral 40-60,model ( 2008 ) 1876 , x 26"
All shot over my ( new to me , thanks to KEN H. ) Caldwell Chronograph .
H-4198 ,, 24.8 grs.,, case OAL. 1.880,W/403168 .215 grs. crimped in groove , 19 rds.
10rds. w/o fillers,, HI. 1564 f/s ,, low, 1240 f/s = 1343 f/s. spread= .324 ???
9rds. w/filler ( .7 poly. ) ,, HI. 1570 f/s ,, low, 1532 f/s = 1,555.8 f/s. '' = .38
Don't have a phone to record all info. ,,, YET ,, soooo if my math is a " little " off ,, it's probable my " pen ".
These loads are for my rifle ,, YMMV , use at your own risk !! .
coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.
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What distance where you shooting to get a "spread = .324? Is that group size? OR - something like ES?
Looks like H-4198 really works better with filler. The the filler holds the powder back to rear closer to primer for better ignition. I'm sure glad the chrono is working for you - I sure hope the phone attachment will work for you. You might try a friends phone to load the app and test. I'm sure liking the mold you sent - just the right bullet for a 40-60.
Ken H>
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Sorry , Ken ,, that is extreme spread ,it was a wild day. I also shot 5 rds. in my 45-60 w/ the same load as the 40-60 ( 24.8 grs. w/ filler )and got a ES of 9, Avg. fps. for the 45-60 was 1,555.8 fps. ( back under the trailer today , removing old insulation ).
coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.
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Has anyone tried any of the Jamison .40-60 brass in an original 1876?
I have some that Buffalo Arms made from .45-70 WW cases and they feed and eject correctly from my original 1876. That is in spite of the the .45-70 cases having a smaller rim.
These Jamison cases might be a good option too.
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Jamison 40-60 wcf cases have loaded , fired and ejected just fine in my rifles for yrs.. Very good cases .,,,DT
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Took the day off and went to the range. Using my 40-60 Chaparral and Lyman 403168 bullets cast at .216gn. .406dia. & Coated. 50yds.
5rds.- IMR 4198 @ 24.8gns. ---------- Hi. 1416 ------- Low. 1376
5rds.-IMR 4198 @ 25.8gns. ----------- " 1494-------- " 1456
5rds. " "" @ 26.8gns. ---------- " 1555 -------- " 1513
5rds.-IMR 3031 @ 26.8gns. ----------- Hi. 1438 --------- " 1388
5rds.-IMR 3031 @ 28.1gns. w/.4 flr. --- ". 1523 ----------- 1492
With the exception of 2 rds. (by yours truly) all shot to point of aim, the "tightest groupe" was from the IMR-4198 @ 25.8gns, no filler.
I did not try to change my sights as i wanted to see how each groupe shot as to point of aim.
The 24.8gns. of IMR-4198 shot the lowest & 26.8gns. opened up, I could live w/ the IMR-3031 @ 28.1 w/4 filler.
The only problem i have is "astigmatism", floaters in both eyes, look like fuzzy spider webs.
coffee's ready, Hootmix
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I got hold of some Jamison .40-60 brass so did a comparison with some resized WW 45-70 brass. The Jamison brass has a slightly larger rim but not quite as big as an original Winchester make .40-60 cartridge in my collection. Not sure why, maybe they had to make them fit the reproduction guns.
I don't have reloading dies so I use an original Winchester Model 1880 loading tool. It works great for this. The fired cases didn't need resizing so after cleaning and de-priming I re-primed them. I used Winchester large rifle magnum primers.
I found the WW brass must have thinner walls as I can get 60 grains by volume of Goex cartridge in them. On the other hand, the Jamison cases will only hold 50 grains by volume and still have enough room to seat the bullet with light compression.
Bullet used was from original Winchester .40-60 mold which drops a 210 grain bullet with two grease grooves. I didn't resize them, just lubed with SPG and used the loading tool to do the seat and crimp operation. Just like the boys did in the ranch house back in the day.
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40-60 wcf once fired Jamison case , Winchester LG rifle primer , 57 Gr. Swiss ffg by weight = 55 gr. by volume measurement under an original 210 gr. bullet lubed with SPG requires 1/8 " compression to achieve the correct OAL , seated in Winchester tong tool . This load has given good accuracy and just under 1500 fps in my rifles for well over a decade !!!!! ,,,,,DT
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Dusty, do you size your .40-60 bullets?
I would like to try the Swiss powder but I still have some Goex to use up first.
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Dusty, do you size your .40-60 bullets?
I would like to try the Swiss powder but I will have some Goex to use up first.
I load and shoot them as cast .,,,DT
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These are my latest endeavor's w/different powders. w/ 403168, .216gn. PC'd, sized to .406 dia.
IMR 3031- 26.8gns. w/.4 Dacron filler------ HI@ 1351 fps. -----LO@1309 fps.
IMR 4198- 25.8gns. no filler ----------------- " @ 1492 " ------ " @ 1450 ".
If i do my part the 25.8gns. of IMR 4198 is given the most constant groups @ 50yds., next trip out i will try @ 100yds. (better take some extra coffee). Will move the IMR 3031 to 27.8gns. w/.3 filler, all rds. loaded w/ 1884 loading tool.
coffee's ready, Hootmix.
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Thank you for the report Slamfire . Are you seeing any Hi pressure signs with these two loads ? I just / finally found some IMR 4198 powder , will try it along with the Winchester .406 -210 Gr. and Jamison brass . In the past this same brass and bullet worked well with the IMR 3031 powder @ 28 Gr. No Hi pressure sign but would not load higher in my rifle . ,,,,,,DT
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Drove to the range this AM before the world woke-up.
Loaded 10 rds. w/ 25.8gns. no filler, using my 1884 loading tool, brass @ 1.880 w/ OAL 2.250.
1st. 5 rds.= HI=1448----- LO=1430fps.
Rds. 6-10 =HI =1447----- LO=1389fps.
Loaded 5rds. on my LEE seating die 1rd. @ 1536fps. (??), 4rds. @1473 to 1421fps. NO !! no signs of pressure. I have shot a few rounds as hi as 1660-1700fps. no signs of pressure, and easy case extraction, i don't like above 1500fps. for myself.
The 3031 @ 27.8 w/.3 flr. ran 1484- 1467-1419-1412 & 1396fps. Think i can go to .5 filler and get a better average.
coffee's ready, Hootmix.
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One of my 1876 Winchester 40-60 wcf rifles has a re-lined barrel . It slugs @ .405 groove and a ROT of 1 in 22". This ROT is forgiving or handles the heavier bullets and is still accurate with the original 210 Gr. at slower speeds . Now the others with the original bore and ROT of 1 in 40" like the faster speed of 1500 fps. or more the better ! My 26 " Oct barrel 40-60 wcf is a very accurate old rifle using Bp. loads but fouls out very fast ( with a great bore ) but if fouling is controlled it can print pretty small groups for a 136 + yr. old rifle and iron sights . I ran a few groups using a heavily compressed charge of 61 Gr. fffg and card wad over powder with the 210 Original bullet and SPG lube . Those loads would shoot better than I can hold , but the fouling was as bad as I have seen in the old 40 Cal. Was a hoot to shoot with that CRACK SOUND ! ,,,,, DT
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Dec.-22-23, last trip to the range w/ 40-60.
Now using IMR 4198 (No more H 4198) 22.8 w/.5 Dacron filler & testing w/ WLR primers.
Brass (Starline, 45-70 resized) @ 1.885, OAL 2.270
Lyman 403168 PC'd @ .215gn.
Average fps. 1470
50yds., using 5 shot groups, 3in one hole, next 2 out 1", shooting @ 3 1/2" target.
Because i'm now using IMR 4198 i started low and will work up. the IMR & WLRP seems to shoot a might hotter, than H powder & FLRP. More later.
coffee's ready, Hootmix
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Howdy Slamfire, DrummerBoy here,
Uhh well…I could have sworn I saw a 40-60 die set on the 4D CH website but now I can’t seem to find any….have I got myself into a rifle I can’t shoot?? Or am I not using the 4D site right? Any help….
THANKS, DB
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NEVER MIND!!! ::)
I founded it….
Dee Bee
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All or None,
Here is another fit of head scratching cause I want to know more:
I’m putting this on 40/60 because “Lever Guns of the Old West” shows 40 caliber BP loads for 1876, 1886 and 1895 guns:
40-60: 57.0 gr of Cartridge for 1467 fps w/215 projo
40-65: 58.0 gr of Cartridge for 1356 fps w/246 projo
40-82: 78.0 gr of Cartridge for 1470 fps w/280 projo
40-72: 70.0 gr of Cartridge for 1516 fps w/280 projo
Not a significant difference for three significantly different action designs
The 1876 is not exactly out of the running in this selection…
NOW: the new Lyman manual says this about actions:
1873 should be limited to 13,700 psi on the 44-40 page
1886 should be limited to 26,900 psi on 2nd 45-70 page
1892 should be limited to 22,000 psi on the 44-40 page
1895 is good for 44,000 on the 405 page
But the 44 magnum pistol page lists pressures of 36,000 psi
And there are versions of both the ‘92 and the ‘73…
I’ve read on this site of Uberti limits of 28,000 for the 1876
Lots of apples and oranges here to be sure, but what all this is getting at for me is a suspicion that pure d strength might not have been the overriding design criteria:
Lyman doesn’t put a lot of faith in any lever action.
Could have been only the desire to accommodate longer cartridges and spiitzer projectiles…..
Y’all please set me straight… :-\
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DrummerBoy,
First I am not being 'smart' with this response. Really. But I do not really understand your points or questions. But I will try to address what I think you are stating and where you are gathering your information.
The velocities that Mike Venturino gives are with bullet that he has on hand or available. What you need to look at and compare are the bullet weights of the originals and their velocities.
40-60 used a 210 gr bullet Cartridges of the World list it at 1562
40-65 used a 260 " " " " " " " " " 1420
40-82 used a 260 " " " " " " " " " 1490
40-72 used a 330 " " " " " " " " " 1407
Yes the 1876 40-60 does appear to be a good general cartridge but compare it to the original heavier bullet cartridges.
Yes the original 1876 was a rifle ahead of others with its 45-75 but it was behind Marlin in producing a rifle to handle the Government 45-70-405 cartridge which was the overall marketing GOAL. Understand the 40-60(1884); 45-60(1879) and 50-95(1879) did not come around until later years. See dates behind each cartridge.
Now to your next statement. It appears to me that you are confusing Lyman's reloading concerns over original BP made rifles/pistols compared to modern made capabilities. Most information in Lyman manuals are reduced loads to protect themselves from people loading smokeless in Original BP firearms. What you state as psi value are most likely for original BP firearms. Example of this is separate loads for 45Colt in Single Action Armies and Rugers.
Then you state but 44 Magnums are offer in these same designs 1873 & 1892. You are confusing Original BP steel with re-manufactured designs (replicas) using more modern steel. 'If I understand your comments correctly'.... Truly sorry if I am mis-understanding your comments.
Hope this helps you somewhat. Keep on reading you will learn a lot more info about the originals -- the replicas -- & reloading of such.
This is my comment to help you understand my 30+yrs of this. I never put smokeless in an original firearm produced in the BP era(others may). You need to learn when that 'timeframe' is for the Original rifle or handgun you would buy. I follow the manuals for 'reproducing original velocities' using smokeless powders in all replica firearms, I buy. I load all replicas with full BP loaded cartridges using originally designed bullet or Lyman copies, if I so desire.
If the manufacture states that their firearm is rated for a particular cartridge like 357Mag or 44Mag, I will fire that specific cartridge factory load every now and then but I general reload staying at mid-range velocities because, it is what I like.
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Black River Smith,
Heartfelt Thanks! Now I’m getting somewhere!
Rather than thinking you’re a smart Alec I sincerely appreciate your concerns in dovetailing what I do know with what I need to know.
More later after I’ve digested your comments!
Thanks Again,
DB
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Howdy Black River,
What all this has to do with is that everything I read seems to indicate that, given modern steel, the toggle action of 73/76 doesn’t really give up all that much to subsequent developments. IMHO
Best thing to do is tackle one issue at a time if that’s okay:
First the Lyman thing:
My 51st edition stresses that loads for all the calibers under discussion here are for NEW replica type firearms…..no BP loads and no smokeless loads for originals.
Next, they do group as you say for weaker actions, but exclusively for new guns. 1873 action limited to 13k, 1892 to 22k, 1886 to 26k, and implies that 1895 should be limited to 44k which is what the 405 loads max out at.
What “seems” to contradict this are the 44magnum pressures, the .348 pressures and the 30-06 pressures in the 51st edition just because guns proscribed above are built for these calibers….this stuff about contradiction is my opinion. The Data above the double space is in the book.
Now what I’m deducing from this is that an authority like Lyman doesn’t place exponential value on the progressive improvement of Winchesters “lever-evolution” my pun…..
Along that line of thought, whether it’s Venturino or “Cartridges of the world” the progression of 40 caliber black powder cartridges doesn’t represent any great change that the 76 or 73 couldn’t handle, except for COAL..what I was trying to get at..
(BTW I think that trials gun of 1868 or whatever could handle the 45-70)
Stand By…..TARGETS!
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Saved Round,
I think the army started issuing smokeless ammo for trapdoors in 1898….
Now about those Marlins……
DB
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All of that info is for black powder. Notice the fps is all right in the sweet spot. That is what it was all about.
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DrummerBoy,
"What all this has to do with is that everything I read seems to indicate that, given modern steel, the toggle action of 73/76 doesn’t really give up all that much to subsequent developments. IMHO" Now that I understand your overall premise, I will say --- To a certain point, I will definitely agree with your statement about the newly manufactured guns. Just look over at the loading results of other shooter, in the other caliber reloading Stickies. Some velocities are impressive.
But you have to understand, that I believe and other also, that the 1886 was a 'Stronger' overall design, in a shorter receiver frame than its BP toggle-link brothers. Also remember that the '86 design with better steel, became the platform, for the revered Win '71 in 348 caliber. Even the 1892 design had special High Velocity smokeless loads develop for it in the early 1900's. Neither the 1873 or 1876 were graduated to higher velocity smokeless cartridges, until our modern times. But again like you state -- the newer steel does allow for higher velocities and newer cartridges like the 44Mag in an 1873 design. Sorry, I do not know about the smokeless loads for 45-70 Trapdoors.
But, I am now going to have to beg-out of this conversation because I only have the 49th Edition and it does not have what you are talking about. So, I cannot read and maybe re-interpret what you are reading. You see the 49th Edition was the first time Lyman even addressed the NEW '1876 replica' rifles and their reloading(my reason for buying it). All the information was in one comprehensive chapter, only 4 pages total. It only covered 40-60, 45-60 & 45-75. Not the 50-95.
Also this Edition only has 2 other 40's (besides the 40-60). Only one of them is what you are talking about, the 40-65. In its intro page it does state "This data is intended for use in modern, newly manufactured guns rated for smokeless powder. This data is not for use in antique guns originally built for black powder."
So hopefully others will be able to help you work through the newer Lyman Edition's intended information...
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Black River Smith,
What a SPLENDID piece of writing!!! (Did your wife proofread it?[mine did!])
Obviously must get that 49th Edition ASAP!
Joe Salter has a box of old 45-70 smokeless on his site right now… procedure to download a pic is beyond me at the mo…
BTW I might have waxed a little bit too eloquent in my zeal to support my faith in the toggle action on another site…..if anybody notices…not apologizing but I am owning up..
I spoke with Jathan at the Cody museum yesterday about the carrier size on those British Army trials rifles….that carrier DOES make for a longish action, but a smooth one, and the innards don’t fall out…
Thanks Again!
DB
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DrummerBoy,
Thank you for the kind words. No, my wife does not help me. I formulate my own thoughts and express them with my own word patterns.
I do hope you get your full questions answered by others.
Hope to see more of your questions here once you start your reloading journey. There are a lot of experienced poster on this & other forums sections to give ideas.
BRS
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Getting good results with this: 4.5gr 5744 and 45gr of swiss 1.5 with a 270gr bullet cast at .406 with 20 to 1. Only worked with it once at 50 yards but was getting groups around 2.5". Still having a little trouble with hard fouling but can go past 5 shots without cleaning or accuracy loss. Would be even better if the bullet carried more lube.
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Deleted my comments because it appears I misinterpreted the previous posting. Sorry
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I think Roosterman, is talking about a "Duplex Load", 4.5gr. of 5744 + 45gr. of Swiss 1.5, the way i read the info.
coffee's ready, Hootmix.
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I think Roosterman, is talking about a "Duplex Load", 4.5gr. of 5744 + 45gr. of Swiss 1.5, the way i read the info.
coffee's ready, Hootmix.
If that was what he was referring to then I do apologize for my comment. I read it as a smokeless load and then a BP load, not a duplex consisting of .....
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Yes, duplex load. I didn't read your comment so if it was offensive, I'm not offended! ;D
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Nope not being offensive to you. I even used the words not meaning to be ignorant or mean. I just thought that it was two different loads, a smokeless and a BP, not a duplex.
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Re-reading my post I can see where it reads like two loads. I didn't explain that very well.
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I posted this on the Winchester collector's site (WACA) a while back but thought it might be appreciated here too. Forgive me if this is all old news.
Reloading obsolete cartridges is a hobby of mine. I recently took on the old .40-60 WCF using black powder for use in an original Winchester Model 1876 rifle.
I had some resized WW 45-70 brass in my stash that I got from Buffalo Arms years ago. I recently found some Jamison .40-60 brass so did a comparison with the resized WW 45-70 brass. The Jamison brass has a slightly larger rim but not quite as big as an original Winchester make .40-60 cartridge in my collection. Not sure why, maybe they had to make them fit the reproduction guns.
I don’t have reloading dies so I use an original Winchester Model 1880 loading tool. It works great for this. The fired cases didn’t need resizing so after cleaning and de-priming I re-primed them. I used Winchester large rifle primers.
I found the WW brass must have thinner walls as I can get 55 grains of Goex cartridge powder in them. On the other hand, the Jamison cases will only hold 50 grains and still have enough room to seat the bullet with light compression.
Bullet used was from original Winchester .40-60 WCF mold which drops a 210 grain bullet with two grease grooves. I used a .406" lube die and lubed with SPG. Then used the loading tool to do the seat and crimp operation. Just like the boys did in the ranch house back in the day.
I have not been to the range yet to test these out.
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looking forward to the report!
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Well obviously I’m too old and senile to be posting here much less fooling with primers and powder
Tried to pose a question regarding a suggestion in Venturinos “Lever Guns” but I put it on the 45-60 site….(sigh)
To get to the point:
He mentions shortening 45-70 dies to use reloading the 45-60
If this works then is the same course of action possible: using shortened 40-65 dies with the 40-60…
45-70 shortened for 45-60 reloading IAW Venturino
40-65 shortened for 40-60?
Thanks……..
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I dunno, I personally think you should just get the proper equipment for the task at hand, rather than cobbling things that MIGHT work.
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Howdy King,
RIGHT you are! I just get frustrated with this current situation wherein support and participation for this sport seems to be drying up and here I’m trying to get started!
On the plus side, today is a red letter day for me because I built a round for the first time, 45-60, with dies from RCBS, press from Lee, primers from Republic, Brass from Steinel and, uh……Pyrodex from Cabelas….bullets from Montana
I might not actually shoot it but it DOES CYCLE through my NWMP replica!
Taking your advice I MIGHT have sourced a set of 40-60 CH4D dies….
BWT I really appreciate your concern and advice!