Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Darksider's Den => Topic started by: The General on February 09, 2008, 04:36:57 PM
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I am getting reacquainted with black powder revolvers after some years away from it and have a question. What is the best BP Solvents out there today to make the cleaning of these fine weapons a joy rather than a chore? I have read a few of the articles here and see Ballistol mentioned quite a bit. Is this a solvent as well as a lubricant?
Let me thank you for any input in advance.
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Howdy General,
Ballistol is an old, I mean very old, gun cleaning product. It works great with both heathen fad smokeyless and Holy Black powder. When cleaning black powder guns, water does the heavy lifting. I use a mixture, a colloidal suspension actually, of One part Ballistol and Ten parts water to make up a milky looking mix called "Moosemilk". My pistols go in a plastic tub (gun spa aka rubbermaid) with the grips removed. Then, I spritz the bores of my long guns and pull a boresnake thru. As soon as that's done, I pull a boresnake thru the chambers of the cylinders and the bores of my pistols.
If I'm going to be putting them up for a while I like to blow them out with compressed air.
The Moosemilk leaves enough Ballistol behind that it prevents rust. I still like to use clear Ballistol or the Marshal's own Gun Butter on any wear parts.
I can clean all my main match guns in under Fifteen minutes and have time for a cold beverage while doing it. One trick that makes it so easy is the Big Lube™ bullets that I shoot. They carry so much lube that none of the fouling gets hard or dry. It simply blows out with each shot.
Hope I helped.
DD-DLoS
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...... My pistols go in a plastic tub (gun spa aka rubbermaid) with the grips removed......
Howdy DD. You just dunk the pistols down in the moosemilk and let 'em sit for a while? I've thought about trying it but something always stops me from soaking the internals of my Rugers in a water based solution. Guess I'll get over it and give it a try if you've been getting good results and no rust. Thanks.
Edit: do you know of anyone using moosemilk in an ultrasonic?
JL
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Worser yet, I don't know anybody using an ultrasonic. My dentist does, but it makes him nervous if I bring my guns. . .
No, I use my Moosemilk bath to throw my pistols into. It works great and is very easy to do. Problem is, in the winter the stuff freezes. The guns just bounce off and don't get clean at all. ;D ;D
DD-DLoS
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For what it's worth, after my Rugers get their moose milk bath they go onto an old cookie
sheet and into the oven at about 150 till the all the water evaporates. Regards, TJ :)
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All I can say is if you can find something better’n Ballistol and/or Moosemilk, use it. I ain’t lookin’ no more.
What I’m seein’ is ya don’t need a solvent for Black Powder residue. Ya just wipe it off.
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I use an ultrasonic with a mix of Ballistol- water- Knights BP soap. I put the cylinder in, nipps on bottom, frame in (w/o grips)--NOT the barrel. Run for 15-20min & all fouling is gone. Do the bore, blow dry, add some straight ballistol, blow out excess, add lube on cylinder pin, re-assemble.
I used Cabelas BP solvent till it got too exspensive. Ballistol is just as good.
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Hot water, a few 100% cotton patches and a light coat of Ballistol.
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This all seems simple enough. Just add one cup Ballistol to 10 cups water, soak the revolers for a time & then blow out excess with an air compressor. I normally keep my revolvers wiped down with oil to protect them after they have been cleaned. Would this no longer be neccesary using the "Moosemilk" solution?
Thank you all for you insight.
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Good question!
I've always run a lightly oiled patch through my barrels and cylinders as my final touch on my percussion arms. I'd then pop some caps before starting to shoot. Figured I'd do the same now that I've gone cartridge and intend to stay with the holy smoke, but not sure what step replaces popping the caps.
More stuff yet to learn...
BP
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BP, No need to pop caps on a cartridge gun. Popping the caps on a percussion gun clears the nipples of lube or any other contaminate or blockage that might be there. Since a cartridge gun does not have nipples, no need to pop caps.
Deadeye Dick
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Just finished cleanin’ mine from Saturday. Don’t mean yesterday, the one ‘fore that. They been in their socks since. They ain’t made ah no special alloy from Alien technology from Area 51 that I know of. Just sprayed ‘em with Moosemilk before I left the range ‘n wiped ‘em off just now.
No soap, no water, no myths complied with, no rust.
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I would never have thought of the idea of popping caps, but can clearly see why this would be most helpful. This "Moosemilk" method sounds like the sure fire way of simple cleaning when it comes to maintaining your percussion revolvers. The old way was very time consuming for me & took some fun out of the sport for sure.
I think I will have to look into this Marshal's Gun Butter mentioned in this thread also.
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BP, No need to pop caps on a cartridge gun.
Thanks DD. Figured that lettin' a couple rounds off into the air weren't the way to go ;) and couldn't even remember why I was poppin' caps in the first place; it's just become part of the mental check off procedure.
BP
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Howdy
Unless you have particularly stubborn fouling there is usually no need to soak the gun. Hot water is really the best solvent you are going to find for Black Powder fouling. The trick is being sure you remove all the water again when you are done, so you don't get rust. I usually just use a few patches soaked in my favorite water based BP solvent and run them through my chambers and bore at the end of the day. The fouling melts right off. A few Q-tips soaked in the same solvent will usually help in the nooks and crannies. A cartridge revolver is usually a bit simpler to clean that a C&B revolver because the chambers are bored straight through. A C&B cylinder usually has several nooks and crannies down in the chambers, and you can't push a patch staight through from one end to the other.
My favorite solvent also has oil dissolved in it, and when the water evaporates the oil is left behind. Here is the beautiful part: Black Powder fouling cannot cause rust if you soak it in oil. BP fouling is normally extremely dry, and in the dry state it wicks moisture in the form of water vapor out of the air. The water condenses and causes rust when it is held close against the metal by the fouling. But if you soak fouling in oil, it is 'full', and cannot absorb any water from the air. So it becomes harmless. When I am done cleaning my guns I run a patch soaked with straight Ballistol through the bores and chambers. Then I run a dry patch through to soak up the excess. In addition, I work a little bit of Ballistol down into the lockwork with a Q-Tip through the opening for the hand in the back of the frame. Any fouling that is lurking down inside the gun gets coated with the oil and is rendered harmless. I only tear my guns down once a year to completely degunk them. There is always some black, oily gunk down inside, there is never any rust.
Yes, conventional wisdom is that all oil should be removed from chambers and bores before firing a gun. To tell you the honest truth, I never do. I just load them and shoot them with that light coating of Ballistol that is down in the chambers and bore.
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Yup DJ, and that little bit of oil left in the bore blows right out with the first shot. The onlyist reason I use a Moosemilk Spa is cuz I'm way lazy. I could do it any number of other ways, but the dunk, boresnake pull and compressed air blow is real easy. A spritz bottle is near as easy.
The trick is to get the job done with the least pain possible. I like to sit around by the tent, enjoy the campfire and take it easy when I clean my guns. It's part of the fun.
The moral of the yarn is that it's not difficult to keep your black powder guns way cleaner than those heathen fad powder shooters ever dreamed of.
Shiny bores, that's us.
DD-DLoS
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Hot water and Dawn dish washing liquid has always worked great for me. Dry everything a well as possible with paper towels then into a warm oven to dry them out. I lube the arbor with my home made BP bullet lube/ chamber lube but Bore Butter would be comparable. Then I wipe down the exterior surfaces with Ballistol.
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I think the combination of the air compressor blow out & being placed in the oven once you have completed the Ballistol bath is the ticket here. You gentleman are most generous with the insight & ideas here and it is greatly appreciated. I hope to be able to return the favor one day & be an added resource here as well.
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for me i have found superclean(you can get it at autoparts stores) and water 50/50% mix best. it cheap and works great on b.p. and b.p. brass. have used it for over 8 years. i do use ballistol for final cleaning. kurt250
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In the old days I would use WD40 & found I ran into problems with that method so, I went back to the method Uncle Sam taught me many years ago & it just became too time consuming thus taking a lot of fun out of the sport. I don't mind cleaning my firearms but, when it takes longer to clean them then the entire shooting even you attend, something is wrong with the picture.
This "Moosemilk" sounds like the way to go.
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Shootin’ Black Powder nearly four years now. An average of twice a month. Someone gets around mine with water without Ballistol in it we’re gonna fight.
That’s the rust problem. Folks think they have ta use water because uncle Clem said so. They don’t fully dry them. Presto! Rust.
Seen folks shy away because they’re convinced they have to tear ‘em down, wash ‘em ‘n put ‘em in an oven to dry. That’s sad. Mine are as clean as a pin ‘n rust free. Never had soap ‘n water on ’em. Never will. Won’t be in an oven either. Ya show ‘em ‘n tell ‘em but myths die hard.
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Cleaning up black powder guns requires water. But, leave 'em guns too clean with no rust protection and presto, RUST. The reason Ballistol works is that it leaves a film of rust preventative behind.
There may well be other products that do the same thing. I'm thinkin' of tryin' water pump lube just for grins. The thing is, clean with water and leave some lube to cover the metal. Clean metal with a film of oil doesn't rust. Clean metal with no protection flash rusts pronto.
So, clean those BP shootn' irons with water, but don't leave clean dry metal to the elements. Oxygen and Iron quickly get together to form Iron Oxide. . . . rust. The oil film keeps the Oxygen from getting to the iron.
That's the nut of it. How you do it don't matter as long as when you're done the clean metal is protected with a film of rust preventative oil.
Not all oils are equal. Some evaporate in time. Others congeal and make a sticky or varnish like mess. Go with an oil that stays the way you want it.
Good luck, make smoke!
DD-DLoS
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Yeah, I suppose so, FCK.
We’ll disagree on the need for water, Dick, my mentor. I’ve cleaned mine with Ed’s Red ‘n there ain’t a drop of water in it. Transmission fluid, white kero, acetone ‘n mineral spirits. Water with or without soap is a no no.
Soap ‘n water is what rusts the guns. Not Black Powder. Folks think they’re doin’ good with the old ways but they’re ruinin’ their guns.
I remain an Underlord. With perfect guns. Clean ‘n sparklin’. Never a drop of water on ‘em that ain’t mixed with Ballistol. Never will be.
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I will point the original poster to the "Dark Arts" section at the top of the forum where there is a "sticky" thread authored by none other than our pardner Arcey on BP cleaning.
Also, if you use the SEARCH function for "Darksider's Den" using the word "cleaning" there is more there than any person will possibly want to know.
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?action=search2
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I apoligize Arcey. I misunderstood & thought you also used water with the Ballistol. I now see that you use the Ballistol alone & also in a spray bottle. So, leave the water out? Water does scare me when it comes to guns.
Also Fox Creek Kid, let me apologize for not properly knowing how to use the forum & look this information up. I thought the idea was to ask questions & learn. I did not mean to offend anyone.
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General, I'm only trying to show you that there is a ton of info in previous threads so you can read to your heart's content and you won't have to wait on replies. I was not trying to admonish you. ;)
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Read this thread , always lookin' for a better BP way...
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Now, what’s your take on Black Powder ‘n cleanin’? C’mon ‘n add sumthin’ ta the conversation.
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I use Balistol and water mixture.
If I have had to wait a long period between shooting and cleaning ( I always spray guns down with balistol after shooting).
I will use car break cleaner on the bores of the shotguns. That stuff will get rid of the crud - just spray it in, clean your other guns and about 20 minutes later the fouling comes out easy.
I then recoat with balistol.
PR
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I cleaned a bit. Ain't doin it again. >:(
Play nice now. ;D
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I have heard that using brake cleaner can remove the bluing from your firearms?
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I have heard that using brake cleaner can remove the bluing from your firearms?
I suppose that is a possibility, General. I have used brake cleaner to clean out the actions of my 92s for several years now and have not encountered any problems of that nature. But I'm not saying it can't happen. I do flush the actions out with oil after I use brake cleaner on them though, perhaps that is why I haven't had a problem with it
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I think keeping them oiled or using some type of lubricant after cleaning (whatever the method) is the bottom line here for insuring many years of satisfactory use.
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I bet you're right on that! FWIW, I was advised to keep the barrel of my musket angled down when stored so that the oils don't flow back into the bottom of the barrel. The theory being that since oil floats on water, any residual moisture content would be trapped under any oil and potentially start corrosion at the bottom of the barrel.
BP
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General, I always do a Balistol rub after cleaning.
My guns have stayed nice for quite some time, but I was the youngest of five boys and derive some fun even from cleaning my guns - brings back nice memories of my younger years hunting trips.
PR
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PR, yes Sir I will have to agree with you & say Ballistol is the way to go after cleaning from everything I have read here. It is a lubricant after all, correct?
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It is a cleaner, lubricant and protectant.
What it does to my turn of the century military rifle stocks over time is very nice.
It is great on polished leather too.
PR
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There have been a number of good ways to clean and store weapons here. There is no "Best" way. There are some bad ways, such as getting guns in a rain storm and then putting them away dirty in the gun case under the cot in a damp tent and finding out in the morning that most of the bluing wiped right off along with the flash rust. . . :o :-[ :(
Get 'em clean, keep a light oil on all surfaces and store 'em dry.
Museums use wax on their guns. But museums don't shoot guns.
Ballistol has some good information on their web site. . Here's just part of the information found there
In 1913 Messrs. Kolb, a Philadelphia corporation submitted Ballistol to the "War Department's" Springfield Armory for T&E. Ballistol was tested on several firearms and Ordnance Captain Ramsey notified Messrs. Kolb by end of April 1914 that Ballistol had been found to be far superior to the Cosmoline used at the time by the US Army for firearms maintenance. Kolb was encouraged to submit a proposal in response to the Army's next RFP. However, in the Fall of 1914 the Austrian Army marched into Serbia and WWI began. Since January 01, 1993, Ballistol has been marketed exclusively by the former Washington Trading Company, now called Ballistol, USA. In 1993 the Navy’s Seal Team 6 tested Ballistol and adopted it in 1994 for weapon maintenance. The US Coast Guard began using Ballistol in 1994. Today Ballistol is used by numerous state and local law enforcement departments and departments of correction throughout the US. For Federal Agencies, Ballistol is available through the Defense General Supply Center (DGSC) of the Defense Logistics Agency. The CAGE Code for Ballistol is "OZKM2". Inquire about the NSN,s for Ballistol sizes.
http://www.firehawktech.com/v/vspfiles/V4_Backup/b%5Eindex01.asp
There's a lot more good information, but I put up the above information to simply wet your appetite.
DD-DLoS
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After a lot of false starts, I've settled on 1 part Ballistol to 8 parts of water. Water to cut the BP fouling and Ballistol to preserve the steel.
Works.
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I've read moose milk is: 1 part ballistol to 9 parts water; 1 part ballistol to 5 parts water; 1 part ballistol to 7 parts water; 1 part ballistol to 8 parts water. Also some use ballistol factory spray can, which I don't know if it's cut with water or not. Some just use straight ballistol. I think straight ballistol must be cut with water to help disolve the bp fouling and then use straight ballistol to lube and protect the firearm. I can see why some of the pard's get a little confused regarding the use of ballistol. ??? I'm now not sure to use more or less ballistol in my moose milk. :-\ Guess as long as it is doing the job of disolving the bp fouling and protecting the metal from flash rusting I should use the least amount of baillistol in my moose millk possible in an effort to cut down on expense. Just be sure to wipe the shootin iron down with straight ballistol when I'm done and putting it away for a while. ;D ;D ;D Sound right? ???
Deadeye Dick
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I started mixing Moosemilk with One part Ballistol to Seven parts water. Then, I got curious and ran an experiment and found that 1:10 worked just as well and my Ballistol went farther.
DD-DLoS
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There is a great deal of sound advice here for sure. Ballistol is definitely the product to use & I believe I have enough choices here to experiment on a few of my BP arms to see what works best. It's all about keeping them clean, safe & performing up to specs. I do thank everyone for their individual ideas & experiences and I look forward to new cleaning adventures.
Enjoy the smoke gentleman & good shooting.
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Howdy,
I've shot only black powder for the last six years or so, average of 2 matches a month.
Black powder is so much easier to clean than smokeless (but I do admit it's more "messy") that I don't shoot smokess in my main match guns cause I don't want all the carbon build up, leading, etc. Black powder fouling just wipes off once it has some moose milk squirted on it.
Because of discussions with my wife, I clean my guns at the range after the match/practice session. It only takes 15 to 20 minutes and it keeps the sulfer smell out of the house, so my homelife is more tranquill.
I use a spray bottle with 1:10 ballistol/water mix to spray the guns down.
I let them sit a little bit then just wipe off all the surfaces with paper towels.
Then, a bore snake is pulled through all barrels and cylinders.
To finish, I dry all surfaces with a cloth and oil everything with BreakFree CLP.
I use a needle oiler to put a drop or two down into the actions.
I don't take my guns apart (screwdriver) for cleaning - ever. They only come apart for gunsmithing.
It took longer to type this than it would to clean my guns after a match.
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Colonel, thank you for sharing your insight on this thread. It is greatly appreciated. That is the second time I have heard of this BreakFree CLP & I think I need to check into that product as well.
I truly do appreciate all the input from you gentleman, thank you.
TG
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Hi folks , I have been reading with interest all the comments .
Although new to this type of shooting I have been shooting old front stuffers loaded with Goex for over 15 years.
Several years ago I got acquainted with Ballistol . At that time ya pretty well had to smuggle it across the border in to Canada ... it is now so much easier to obtain. In my opinion it is great for clean up .
I use plain old Goex 2 ff in my RM Navy Colt conversions .
Like others I am a bit nervous of using it with water , however I have done so and as I always wipe with full strength afterwards I have never noticed any problems.
Usually I mix my B.Oil 1:10 with as close to 100% alcohol as I can find . which just about eliminates most of the water as a carrier ..and
NO Arcey ya can't drink it . Yul go blind , get the squirter's and likely die ::) ::)
It doesn't mix as well and ya need to give er a good shake prior to use but that's my mix anyway.
With help from a lot of folks here including Arcey and Dick D. I have enjoyed myself no end .
A bum ticker and six or seven shots of insulin a day have just about ruined my eyes for any fine shooting but I want to say that CAS has been a salvation for me .
Now I will never beat any clock but my own , however Holy Black , BIG targets and Ballistol are my answer.
Nothing more then my comments . And I'm proud to be part of a Forum where ya can say that just about as many times as ya want .
dutchie
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I started mixing Moosemilk with One part Ballistol to Seven parts water. Then, I got curious and ran an experiment and found that 1:10 worked just as well and my Ballistol went farther.
DD-DLoS
I went to the 1/8 because I would occasionally see a bit of flash rust in the barrels of my pistols with the 1/10. 1/8 no problem.
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Thank you all for your input. Guess I'll try 1 part ballistol to 8 parts water to see how it works since Oregon gets a lot of rain in the winter. I can always go more if I see some flash rusting.. Does anyone know if the aerosol ballistol is straight or mixed with water? Might make a difference how I use it. It seems a little runnier than pure ballistol.
The snow is starting to melt off here and I'm getting ready to make some smoke. Glad to see the rain come back. I think Dick Dastardly hexed me with snow and cold.
Deadeye Dick
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I've been cleaning C&B pistols for many years with the following technique:
2 cleaning rods. One with a wool bore mop, the other with jag for dry or oil patch.
Tooth brush (one that your not planning to clean your teeth with :o
Water displacing oil of your choice...I use WD-40.
Dry patches (home-cut flannel is my choice)
Baby wipe(s).. ::) yes these are handy.
Water (hot, warm or cold, as available) plus a squirt or two of dishsoap. Put it in a washtub.
Remove cylinder(s). Place in water (water should cover).
Remove barrel from Colt-type revolvers.
Use baby-wipe to clean hammer, frame, cylinder pin, etc.
Dry and follow with oil.
Dip bore mop into solution (whist cylinders are soakin') and run through the barrel. rinse mop, repeat as needed.
Run dry patch.
Run oil patch.
Run dry patch to remove excess water displacer (oil), if needed / desired.
Use bore mop to clean chambers while submerged. This cleans the nipples at the same time.
Clean nipples with tooth-brush.
Remove from water, drain/dry (outdoors?..place in direct sun). Dry-patch chambers.
Apply oil generously and dry/drain/remove excess (I use an air compressor when available).
Grease cylinder pin.
Reassemble.
Cut patches to clean/dry/oil the cylider of a generous size (3"-4"diameter). This is a great aid.
Perform same operations to each pistol component back-to-back to minimize changing equipment and lost motion.
This is a science, right?...sorry I'm an engineer.
Also, for those mixing ballistol and water....might want to remember that water-soluable oils may not displace water as well as a true water displacing lube. Military CLP is a good lube/protectant.
Cleaning two revolvers of the same caliber requires less time than typing the procedure.
I use the same system when cleaning cartridge revolvers as well, but they are easier to dry the chambers.
I carry everything to clean/maintain all my firearms using two, small, nested wash-tubs. The "top' one carries all the gear, the bottom one is used for the magic cleaning solution.
Another handy item is a roll of toilet paper. It is the most efficient method for cleaning the BP shotgun I've tried.
Enjoy!
Slim
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Very informative indeed. Thank you for sharing Slim.
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Deadeye,
I have a can of the airisol Ballistol that I have used sparingly (expensive ain't it?) and I think it's straight Ballistol. When water is added to ballistol it turns cloudy/white/ The spray stuff ain't that color.
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Feels 'n looks like the straight stuff. As things have evolved I’ve taken it out of the cart. Rarely use it. Moosemilk in a spray bottle ‘n a 4 oz. refillable plastic bottle of straight stuff.
Went ‘n bought all a shop in Carolina had a couple years ago. Glad I did. The way everythings gone up I don’t even wanna know what it’s goin’ for now.
Dutchie, we got an ole boy shoots with us that swears up ‘n down it’s an excellent laxative. Tolt ‘im I’d try it AFTER he did. Best I know he ain’t yet. He’s a touch touched but he ain’t stupid.
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Well my, my. Seems this thread cleaned up pretty nice too. Quite a road. Some rough spots and a nice perspective from Dutchie along the way. Musta been Cuts' Ballistol. Nice work, group.
BP
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I typically clean my BP guns with HOT soapy water and thoroughly dry afterwards. Outside of guns I lube with Ballistol and then lube the barrels with Bore Butter. Have no problems with flash rust.
In January I started experimenting with that fad smokeyless stuff. Cleaned the rifle in the usual way (Hoppes #9) and dried and then lubed with Ballistol. My K98 Mauser sure seems to like Ballistol. Almost like Ballistol was designed for it. Then again maybe it was. ;D
Ransom Gaer
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Well my, my. Seems this thread cleaned up pretty nice too. Quite a road. Some rough spots and a nice perspective from Dutchie along the way. Musta been Cuts' Ballistol. Nice work, group.
BP
BP, indeed it has cleaned up a bit my friend. I never expected so much insight & the great folks here at CAS City have made me feel quite welcome. It's almost like coming home again.
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I found it interesting that at the time of it's introduction (1904), Ballistol was to be used to maintain the German Army's metallic surfaces of thier rifles, the wood, the leather, and also for the soldier himself (on small wounds, scratches, etc.). Wow, that is what I call versatile!
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Now that's interesting information. Thank you for sharing that.
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I no longer put it on my pancakes, but it makes a fine after shave cologne.
DD-DLoS
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but it makes a fine after shave cologne.
if ya like to smell like old Army socks... ::) ::) ;D
dutchie
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I also use Listerine as mosquito dope. . .
DD-DLoS
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It appears as though Fall Creek Sutlery carries the Ballistol & I need to order a few items from there anyway so, I'll be getting my Ballistol from there.
This sure has been a most informative thread & I do appreciate all the insight provided.
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General, Sir!
Fall Creek Suttlery (THEIR spelling) is another good place to do business with. They're about 25 minutes from my house (if I drive fast) and they have quite a bit of my money. ;)
As a CW reenactor, you've probably known of them for quite a while, I'd bet.
They keep a fair amount of Ballistol on hand all the time. I think my main objection to it IS the smell. But half the fun :o of BP is the smell and look of it!