Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => USFA CSS => Topic started by: Capt. John Fitzgerald on February 04, 2021, 06:35:32 PM
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No, no, not Randolph Scott! What I am wondering about is Standard Manufacturing and their SAA. When first introduced they were the supposed heir apparent to USFA's reputation for quality. Some even speculated that their SAA's were being manufactured on CNC machinery that was purchased from USFA. Haven't seen or heard much of them of late. Their prices were/are high. They also have invested some of their time and effort into a couple of screw-ball pistol designs (not unlike USFA and the .22 ZIP). So what, I guess, I want to know is has their SAA reached any level of success or acceptance in the world of cowboy action shooting? Just curious. ???
CJF
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Capt'n,
As far as I can tell Stardard is still making them and selling them for the original asking price of $1895. Still only one caliber (45 Colt.) and still only 4-3/4", 5-1/2", and 7-1/2" barrels on a cross pin frame. I've seen a couple for sale as used guns but it seems most people who buy them are hanging on to them.
I don't understand how this works but ever since they've appeared for sale the prices of USFA single actions have skyrocketed. It's hard to find one for under $2K and even the obvious Uberti parts guns like the USPFA marked ones seem to have increased in value.
Dave
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If Standard is selling saa for that price why wouldn't I just buy a 3rd gen, new Colt saa? Or a all USA made USFA?
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USFA ceased production of SAA revolvers, in 2011,
Resurface as ZiPFactory.com, based on its CRAP USFA ZiP .22 firearm.
The company formally dissolved in January 2017.
Colt assembled few if any SAA since 2018 , concentrating of other products , like 1911's and the new Colt Python.
You are way more likely to find an inflated USFA for sale.
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And what few SAAs Colt has made since 2018 they have had a problem with frames cracking. Sad to say but the SAAs frames and most other parts are outsourced. Crap they might as well be USFAs.
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And what few SAAs Colt has made since 2018 they have had a problem with frames cracking. Sad to say but the SAAs frames and most other parts are outsourced. Crap they might as well be USFAs.
Colt can only wish their SAAs were the quality of the late production USFAs. I haven't personally handled or examined a Standard Mfg gun but the all US sourced USFA guns I own are built as well if not better than 1st Generation Colts.
Dave
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Because I made a Youtube video about my early Standard (serial #54), which was also one of the first Youtube videos about the Standard SA, quite a few folks who were inspired by said video into purchasing their own have reached out to me. With one exception, all have been very pleased with theirs and said that the quality was on par with what I demonstrated in my video. The one exception, which he backed up with pictures, showed very lousy checkering on the hammer. He communicated his displeasure to Standard, and they made it right. I also had another fella who told me that Standard had stopped making the hammer cam as a separate part and was just machining it into the hammer. That is a minor disappointment, but it is the same way even USFA did theirs. However, they have corrected the early problem with the firing pins, and new ones no longer show any post-production re-working of the firing pins. Perhaps they completely revamped how they made their hammers, and this included not making a separate hammer cam. Who knows?
Anyway, if I had the cash, I'd order another one in a heartbeat.
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:) Odie Numba Three ;)
Great to hear from ya!! Thought there you had gone to Alaska Salmon Fishing and wound up onna Crab Boat :D
Thanks to your tutelage, I am and will continue to be your loudest and most consistent supporter and champion of Annealing. Almost like being an Athletic Supporter ::)
Been Keeping Yourself Well I Hope!!
Stay Safe out There
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The only thing I do not like about the Standard is trivial and petty but it is enough to turn me off of them. The name. Who the heck wants to pay $1,900.00 for a STANDARD revolver. Sounds like the name on some of the old $1.50 revolvers they sold in hardware stores all over the county at the turn of the 20th Century. Whoever does their marketing should have held a contest to come up with a more appealing name.
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It appears the new Colt's with bad frames were in a certain range, S85127A-S85399A. About 250 guns. There was/is a recall. Here is a thread about it. I didn't read the thread and I don't know if those numbers are correct. I'm just posting a link to help others do their own research.
FWIW I think the new Colt SAA's are looking really good. Not over-polished, nice well defined flutes, good fit with the hammer and backstrap. Some of the case colors are strange and some are really good.
https://www.coltforum.com/threads/saa-recall-serial-range-s85127a-s85399a.359461/
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:) Odie Numba Three ;)
Great to hear from ya!! Thought there you had gone to Alaska Salmon Fishing and wound up onna Crab Boat :D
Thanks to your tutelage, I am and will continue to be your loudest and most consistent supporter and champion of Annealing. Almost like being an Athletic Supporter ::)
Been Keeping Yourself Well I Hope!!
Stay Safe out There
Hey there yourself! Yeah, I haven't spoken up much lately, but I have been visiting often and have been tickled pink whenever the occasional .45 Colt blow-by thread receives a response from you about annealing. I count it among my greatest achievements that I got the curmudgeonly Coffinmaker to--not only try annealing--but be one of its strongest advocates. What a coup!
I remain grateful and a bit humbled by yours and others' interest in my well-being and apologize for my lack of engagement lately.
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Hey, I was concerned about you toooooo ;D
No seriously, enjoy your videos ....
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Odie Numba Three ;)
It is such a bummer . .. . something as mundane and trivial as "earning a living" and "paying for groceries" should interfere with FUN!! Wadda CROCK!!
Take care of Yourself.
Stay Safe
Stay Away from People (Oh ... Sure)
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I was one that watched OD#3's videos and decided to spring for a Standard and glad I did. I like the firearm a lot but I do not think it is better than the all USA premium USFA's. I would still like to have a nice US made 7 1/2" single action in 45 Colt but will wait for either a used USFA or Standard. I missed a nice all USA parts Rodeo with a 7 1/2" that had a reasonable price. Hopefully sooner or later there will be others.
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Hey Major, thanks for the sentiment; you were one of the others I was talking about.
Buckaroo, I can understand your preference for the all-USA USFA's. That fine BP-framed 7.5 incher I was lucky enough to buy off of a forum member here in the classifieds section edges out the Standard (ever-so-slightly) in quality. I paid $1,500 for that USFA and was very happy to do so. But it was used, and the advert had a typo that probably threw a lot of folks off. I wouldn't sell it now for anything less than $2,000, and the Standard's build quality is so very, very close. So I think they're priced about right. I just hope they stay in business long enough for me to make a second purchase down the road.
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https://www.coltforum.com/threads/why-no-love-here-for-standard-mfg.383177/
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I had a 3-month long experience with Standard Firearms. First I watched the video reviews and decided to go for it. I was looking for another USFA but decided Standard would fit what I wanted. A USA made gun with all USA parts made of high quality. I ordered a 4 ¾ normal gun with no enhancements. I even talked a Gun Shop into buying some to resale.
When mine came in it had two issues. One I immediately noticed was that the Case Coloring was not uniform in Brightness. To get the issues remedied I called Standard and was advised to email my concerns with pictures. The girls that answer the phones are really nice; however, they don’t have much authority and have to forward emails to the “shop”. I emailed with pictures. At first, they claimed to not see what I was concerned about. Eventually they sent a call tag: once they received the gun, they saw the problem. As it turns out, the gun was missing some clear coat on a section of the frame and loading gate. They did fix that, and it looks good.
Now, at the same time I noticed a dark spot inside the barrel on the muzzle end. I asked Standard to examine that as well as the Case Coloring. First, they said they didn’t see anything and emailed me pictures of the barrel saying it wasn’t there; however, it was clearly visible in the pictures they sent. I pushed the issue further and was then told that the area was from their bluing process and that sometimes blue will get into that part of the barrel. To fix this they decided to clean the barrel/ re-polish it. They resent the gun back to me and at first glance it looked nice; however, that didn’t last long.
I took the gun to my gunsmith and had the bore measured. As it turns out the bore measured .443 on the muzzle end for about ½” deep where it was dark. The rest of the barrel measured .441. To add to the misery, the grips where now chipped, probably from being removed. So, I contacted the Standard and again. They re-sent a call tag which I do appreciate. This time they replaced the barrel and refinished the grips. They sent it back to me.
After receiving the gun back, the metal looks good. However, now the grips are not Proud and even low in a couple of areas. So, I’ve been back in contact with them. I’ve been told to contact to owner who is not responding from 3 Emails I’ve sent.
Ive spoken with other Standard owners who have had issues and poor response from them. Beware if you purchase from them. Id use a Credit Card so you have some leverage. Sometimes,the management will deny anything is wrong with the gun but fix it and send it back
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Rex, that sounds like a terrible ordeal.
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They had a bunch of 45's and 357's on Gunbroker. The ad said they had a bunch of each in stock, I emailed and asked if I bought a pair could I get consecutives. They then said 8 week wait. I called and chatted. They then told me that it didn't matter whether I bough consecutives or not there would be an 8 week wait. I said you ad says 8 in stock. Then they said they weren't in stock but were doing a run of 8 and I could get on a wait list. Went back to the ad and read company reviews. Seems they sell a lot of "in stock" guns then after purchase pull the 6-8 week nonsense. A lot of unhappy buyers.
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I tried to buy models they supposedly had in stock a couple of times over the phone, credit card in hand. After being told several different stories, and deliver times continued to increase over night, I finally gave up trying to deal with their customer service. I ended up buying a used Standard gun. There were good reasons IMO my gun was sold on secondary market for a good bit less than Standard's retail.
I'll not buy another. If you have a decent Colt, almost any USFA or even a good Uberti I wouldn't bother.
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Well I suppose there is always Standards version of the Zip
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FWIW, I ordered a 7 1/2" with one piece grips on 12/31 and it shipped to my FFL on 1/31. It's beautiful; no regrets.
I wrote to them last week how much I loved it and if they ever make a 44-40 I'll take one in 5 1/2". (I read on other forums where they will make a 44-40 but you have to ask.)
So far, no response.
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hatman, I haven't seen a 7 1/2" Standard. Got any pics?
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hatman, I haven't seen a 7 1/2" Standard. Got any pics?
I'll try to get a picture or two, but in the meantime the one in this video is pretty much a spittin' image:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4fQ_I0Qzjw&t=807s
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Remember the STI Single Action? Better than a Colt. USFA, better than a Colt. Standard, better than a Colt. My dad use to tell me if everyone is comparing their product to another product, buy the other product. There is virtually no market for high end single action revolvers. Colt has only one thing going for it - the name. The Standard, STI and even USFA don't/didn't have that essential ingredient. Colt's annual production of single actions is so low it is not an economically viable product. It will be intersting to see if the new owner of Colt produces any single actions. I sure hope so.
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So do I, I fear not though.... :(
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I'll try to get a picture or two, but in the meantime the one in this video is pretty much a spittin' image:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4fQ_I0Qzjw&t=807s
Oh yeah, I've seen that OD#3 video before, that was a good one. I forgot that they were 7 1/2" guns.
As for STI, I wonder how many of those they actually made?
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I bought one a couple months ago. Beautiful gun! I decided to get a pair for when i felt the itch to shoot 45 colt in sass, so i ordered another last week or so. I was told it would be 10 weeks. It is here at gun shop today, in eight days. I have not seen it yet, but hope it equals the first one in looks. I am wondering about the longevity of the shiny sprayed on finish.
We will see if they shoot straight.
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I bought one a couple months ago. Beautiful gun! I decided to get a pair for when i felt the itch to shoot 45 colt in sass, so i ordered another last week or so. I was told it would be 10 weeks. It is here at gun shop today, in eight days. I have not seen it yet, but hope it equals the first one in looks. I am wondering about the longevity of the shiny sprayed on finish.
We will see if they shoot straight.
Matt, what configuration is the new one? I'd be curious to know which ones they may have ready to ship. Coincidentally, I picked one up today, purchased from a dealer. It's a case colored blued 4.75 with two piece grips. The case coloring is not as nice as my USFAs, but it'll do I suppose. The nitre blue accents are a plus. Really like that feature.
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Matt, what configuration is the new one? I'd be curious to know which ones they may have ready to ship. Coincidentally, I picked one up today, purchased from a dealer. It's a case colored blued 4.75 with two piece grips. The case coloring is not as nice as my USFAs, but it'll do I suppose. The nitre blue accents are a plus. Really like that feature.
It is the standard blue, case colored, 2 pc grip. I did order 5.5 length. When we ordered they told us 10 weeks. Maybe someone else canceled their order, or the person taking the order did not know what they talked about. My ffl was surprised too. He was told there were none in stock when he ordered, and got a short speech about “these are custom made” and not on the shelf. I hope to get time to go get it today.
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I did not know they make a 38 special. If i knew that, i would have ordered one instead of another 45 colt.
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Well, i talked to Standard about the 38 spec. It was a short run a few months ago, which was sold out. They have no plans to do it again. I was under the impression they were producing the guns as they appeared in the latest bluebook along with the 45 colt guns.
Here is todays purchase. It has mostly brown in the case colors. Very odd looking in the pics but looks really good in person.
My other one is mostly blue colors with little browns. Why the difference?
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Marshall Matt Gillion, according to your photos it looks like they are no longer doing the screws and ejector rod lever in nitre blue.
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Marshall Matt Gillion, according to your photos it looks like they are no longer doing the screws and ejector rod lever in nitre blue.
I think that is my lack of camera skills, which also accounts for the case color weirdness. The screws are pretty blue along with the rod.
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:) PLUS ONE for Pettifogger ;)
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Remember how USFA tried their hand at reproducing more than just SAA's? I had one of their Lightning Rifles, and it remains the most exquisitely machined firearm I ever had the pleasure of owning. Unfortunately, they copied the original too closely without a proper understanding of how to make them run properly--especially when chambered in anything but .44-40. Mine was in .45 Colt and, though I suspected that it was the shape of the ejectors that were causing its issues, I couldn't bear to take stones and files to it. Regardless, its subsequent sale is one of those I remember with remorse.
Then USFA came out with their "1910" model, which was a bit of a fantasy piece in that it utilized a hammer shape Colt had abandoned well before the 1911 debuted. I wanted one, nevertheless, and that hammer even appealed to me, evoking the earlier Colt pistols.
Then there were their very, very few percussion revolvers (finished Uberti parts, I know), and their 1875 Remington that never got off the ground. It is very hard to make a success of reproducing old-world firearms if one does it using all machined parts and American labor. I don't blame Doug Donnelly for quitting when he did, though I never did understand the completely antithetical ZIP .22.
I don't know if Standard's SA revolver will ever be a long-term success. The Italians' use of castings, cyanide case colors, and lower-cost labor makes it just too hard to compete, especially since the Italian clones actually look good and work well. And the relatively rare (but documented) poor examples of quality and customer service from Standard certainly don't bode well.
But back to my original paragraph. Remember when USFA's apparent goal went from just selling finely-fit and finished Uberti parts to manufacturing their own copies of, not just the SAA, but other discontinued Colt firearms as well? Checking email today, I noticed this from Standard. https://stdgun.com/22-semi-automatic-pistol-royal-blue/?utm_source=Standard+Mfg.+Co.+Newsletter&utm_campaign=3f3fb02110-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2021_03_26_07_59&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_8f9ecb6acc-3f3fb02110-198648085&mc_cid=3f3fb02110&mc_eid=41562ab945 (https://stdgun.com/22-semi-automatic-pistol-royal-blue/?utm_source=Standard+Mfg.+Co.+Newsletter&utm_campaign=3f3fb02110-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2021_03_26_07_59&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_8f9ecb6acc-3f3fb02110-198648085&mc_cid=3f3fb02110&mc_eid=41562ab945)
I don't know how folks will take to a $900 Colt Woodsman copy, but I have to admit that it appeals to me to have someone bring back an old-school all-machined Woodsman. Much more appealing than the Beretta Neos. If anything, I hope they make a lot of magazines.
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Well, scrap the excitement over magazine availability. I just noticed that their version will have a 1911-style mag release. Too bad....
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" The Italians' use of castings, cyanide case colors, and lower-cost labor makes it just too hard to compete."
Actually Uberti forges their frame. Once you get past the goofy toy gun at the beginning the first operation is forging the frame. Colt outsources their frames so I am no longer sure whether they are cast or forged.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYOJa8ZNxmE&t=70s
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Yes, I know Uberti forges their frames, but their hammers, gripframe, loading gate, and (I think) lockwork are cast. Much cheaper way to make them. Incidentally, however, Uberti frames are probably stronger than the USFA's were and Standard's are, due to Uberti forging theirs. USFA and Standard have frames milled out of barstock.
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If you were aware they were forged frames why would you write and imply other wise? Cyanide case colors? Actually it is cyanide salts bath used to actually case harden. It is not just case colors as you also imply. Three different metal processes mentioned here, forged, case hardening and MIM that by you comments you don't seem to fully understanding.
" The Italians' use of castings, cyanide case colors, and lower-cost labor makes it just too hard to compete."
Less expensive yes. But forged none the less. Cast? Most of the internals now are MIM. So cast but not like cast 20 years ago. I don't get the diss there. MIM has been well proven in the 1911s now for over 20 years. Much to do about nothing. As I sure don't need a bar stock loading gate.
The Italians build a better gun in many ways where it actually counts than Colt does if you want to shoot them.
$500 reliable gun or a $2000 over priced one? The $2000 gun likely won't shoot any where close to what the clones in any version, are capable of and most of those are built off Uberti specs
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Good grief! The point I was making is that the methods of manufacture used by the Italians are much less expensive than what Standard does. If I implied that ALL Uberti parts were cast, that was unintentional. Where strength counts (like the frame), they used a good forging. Where it doesn't so much (like the gripframe and other small parts), they use castings and MIM--because it is cheaper than milling from barstock. Where a color casehardened finish is desired, they substitute the cyanide salt bath method, again because it is much less expensive and time-consuming than the bone/charcoal color casehardening that Standard and Colt use.
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$550 or $2000? We noticed.
Less expensive doesn't always mean less. Although you certainly implied otherwise.
Rolex and Casio is another comparison. If you have both it is obvious which one keeps the best time.
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Sometimes I just don't get you. Your collection of fine, engraved, and otherwise embellished single actions are the envy of many on this and other forums, but it seems to contradict what you have established as the pinnacle of modern single actions--the high-performing low-cost Italian clones.
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I have any number of nice guns. And a good many not so nice guns. But I also know how to tear them all apart and make them better or at least recognize the junk. Engraving or a fine finish might embellish a fine firearm. Or it might just be lip stick on a pig. The finish work or a final finish doesn't mean you have a great gun.
I also know where to get the most out of the dollars I spend. Just because some internet warrior or worse yet some ass bite gun writer says it's the best (bought at discount or simply given to them) doesn't impress me.
You got called on your original comment by Pettifogger. But he wasn't the only one to notice.
Not that it matters but I do like "pretty" firearms. But the only thing that really matters to me bout a gun is how they shoot, how they function, how they were built is a distant 3rd if the first tow are stellar.
When Rolex was the only tool watch available and you really needed to know the time....you owned a Rolex. When better watches that were every bit as reliable and even more accurate than a Rolex the same people who really needed to know the time dumped their Rolex in short order. They simply priced them self out of the "tool" market.
Rolex is still a nice watch. In the same vein Colt is still a "nice" hand gun. But neither is still a simple tool. And we expect a lot more from a tool these days than either brand offers.
You've owned them, shot them and torn them apart. No clue if you are capable of fixing any of them but no matter. By you comments you have already decided on what the "best is" and what the "worst is".
Helps to actually understand the metallurgy you were so willing to discuss prior. And we can agree to disagree.