Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => STORM => Topic started by: Tuolumne Lawman on August 24, 2020, 10:18:56 AM
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This is separate from the project, so it deserves its own thread.
Decided to switch to shooting my 1851 Konversions as my main match pistols for awhile.
(https://i.imgur.com/Loy15Dv.jpg?1)
I'll start with loading the Bear Creek heeled 140s. My original load was 3.7 grains of Trail Boss (The healed bullet in the .38 long Colt case gives the same capacity as a 140 flat base in a .38 Special case, so I used that data). It was rupturing cases with the heeled crimp, but not in the 148 wadcutters with standard crimp. I am guessing, as I said before, that the wrinkle where the "petals" of the crimp die meet is initiating the tear. I will first try a lighter crimp, since mine was so severe. I'll also back down to about 3.4 grains. I don't want to have to back down too much, as I want as much thump asI can get from the .38 Colt.
As far as leather, my Texas Jack Slim Jim I use on my Saber River 1860 Kirst will work for the 7.5" 1851, and I ordered a El Paso Saddlery "Territorian" Slim Jim from Midway for the 4" barreled 1851. I have an Oklahoma Leather cartridge belt with 40 bullet loops on it. Typically, I load 20 .44-40s for my Henry or 1866 Carbine, and 20 of the .45 Schofields. If I weave a leather shoelace through the 20 loops I use for the 45 Schofield, the .38s should be secure enough
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That looks like a fun pair. It'll be interesting to hear how you like them compared to your 45's after a few matches.
I am guessing, as I said before, that the wrinkle where the "petals" of the crimp die meet is initiating the tear. I will first try a lighter crimp, since mine was so severe.
Just as a thought, could you do a loose crimp first and rotate the cartridge a slight bit then finish the crimp?
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To be honest, the ONLY thing about the .38 Colt that has me excited to use the 1851s as main match revolvers is shooting the heeled bullets! Hollow base wadcutters, while the work, are just lame, and totally anachronistic. The 140 grain heeled bullet with a full powder charge has some thump and is absolutely historically accurate. Even a hollow base 150 round nose is post 1892, so WAY wrong for my 1869 Persona. Heeled base are just plain historical and gnarly looking.
When I get my loading bench moved and set up again next week, I plan on loading a couple hundred 140 heeled to get started.
(https://i.imgur.com/gI563Yg.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZzFPkVo.jpg)
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Heeled base are just plain historical and gnarly looking.
Gnarly says it. I also like the look of them with the 140's. Totally cool stuff.
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Nice look and good choice on the heeled bullet. I just finished re-reading your 38LC 'bullet development' posting (5 pages) about 3 weeks ago. It prompted me to rework on a heeled base bullet rather than just shooting a 0.357 Spcl bullet out the 0.375 barrel.
Don't give-up on those beautiful 44's you recently put together. The firearms and bullet boxes are still correct, also.
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I tell myself that the Kirst Saber River is actually a private 5 shot LCC in .46 Rimfire to go with the Remington 5 shot .46 rimfire. Need to dig out some .46 rimfire labels to be more correct. My Persona is 1967 to 1870ish.
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As I recall, your .46 Rimfire labels looked good, too. Do you put them on cardboard boxes or wooden ones?
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I use Cheyenne Cartridge box for .45 Schofield. Buffalo Arms and Midway carry them $21/5
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Thanks. I took a look. They're nice quality boxes. Everyone seems sold out right now so they must be popular.
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I have loaded a test batch using the Bear Creek 140 grain heeled bullet. Dropped powder charge to 3.4 grains Trail Boss (down from 3.7 grains) and a much lighter crimp. The tight crimp was causing the cases to tear from the pinch of the excessive crimp, down the side. Going to the range tomorrow to see if they still split.
Interestingly enough, the 148 hollow base wadcutters with a tight crimp did not split. I think it is from thr "pinched area" of the case mouth where the "petals" of the crimp diecome together and crease the case when a tight crimp applied.
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Thanks. I took a look. They're nice quality boxes. Everyone seems sold out right now so they must be popular.
At $4.00 + a box they should nice.... :)
I make my own at $ 0.62 each ,
Boxes are from Papers Mart $62 a hundred shipped ( same place Cheyenne gets their blank boxes )
Some of my Labels are from the internet , some from TL's collection , some from River City John
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At $4.00 + a box they should nice.... :)
I make my own at $ 0.62 each ,
Boxes are from Papers Mart $62 a hundred shipped ( same place Cheyenne gets their blank boxes )
Some of my Labels are from the internet , some from TL's collection , some from River City John
Thanks. That sure does look like a better deal.
Are these the boxes? (https://www.papermart.com/p/kraft-covered-setup-mailing-boxes/1104) If so, what size(s) do you get?
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Yes Sir
055031 3 5/8 '' 2 1/4 '' 1 1/4 '' 100 $0.64 = $64.00
These are perfect for 50 - 44 rounds or 45's
I've also use for 20 Rounds of 30/06 or 303 British in clips
same box for 9mm or 38, though I cut 4 card board spacers
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I have bought
055040 4 1/4 '' 2 3/4 '' 1 1/2 '' 100 $0.70
They work but are a bit big ....if you want to loose fill, these will hold close to 100 , 38- 9MM
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That's great information, Major. Thanks for that. Those should do the trick nicely.
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Sadly they are out of stock of 055031 3 5/8 '' 2 1/4 '' 1 1/4 '' 100 $0.64 = $64.00
So I used the button , to contact me when they are available again..
I'm down to a hand full now and will need some....
a hundred lasted me about 2 years ...and I made & gave away a coupla doz.
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Sadly they are out of stock of 055031 3 5/8 '' 2 1/4 '' 1 1/4 '' 100 $0.64 = $64.00
So I used the button , to contact me when they are available again..
I'm down to a hand full now and will need some....
a hundred lasted me about 2 years ...and I made & gave away a coupla doz.
That's a lot of boxes. Of course they're only cardboard and allowing for multiple calibers, I guess it wouldn't be too hard to go through a bunch. Does anyone else make the same type of boxes?
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That's a lot of boxes. Of course they're only cardboard and allowing for multiple calibers, I guess it wouldn't be too hard to go through a bunch. Does anyone else make the same type of boxes?
1st I apologize to TL for the thread Hijack ;)
I would guess yes to other vendors , but I quit looking when I found Paper Mart.
I suppose two could split a case (100) Like $31 each and get 50 boxes each....
I had no problem with 100 though, and I all but used my stash ...they are tough and hold up actually very well !
I sound like a commercial for Paper Mart ...but I have no dog in the fire .... Just think $0.62 is way better the $4.25 or so per box.... :D
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My apologies for the hijack, too. Yeah, that price is right.
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No problem, good info! Anyway, back on topic:
Success! I ended up with 3.3 grains of Trail Boss, instead of the 3.7 grains I originally loaded. I also reduced the crimp to just enough to grip the heel. The end result, no split cases! I do feel that it was due to the reduced crimp not giving the necks a sharp, rather than the reduced load. I will say that the 3.3 grains with light crimp had noticeably less snap than the tight crimp ones.
(https://i.imgur.com/eZjJxtI.jpg)
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Glad to hear it. I'll remember that if I get to loading heeled rounds. How was the accuracy of that load?
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In this last session I got about 1.5" at 7 yards, just casual shooting off hand. POI was about 5 inches above POA with the 1851's little nubbie sight.
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That sounds pretty good for an original sight. If it had one of those 1860 style blade sights, it would be right on.
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Well now, the next chapter of the saga continues...
Took some light crimp, 3.3 grain Trail Boss loads to the local match.... What a disaster! I started with the 1851 .38s Kirsts on the first stage.
Shooting the 3.3 grains loads with the light crimp was like shooting a .22 Short!. All got was a "pop" and the 140 grain bullet just wiggled the knock down target! It was less than a "mouse f@rt" load. Talk about embarrassing! The cat calls and good natured laughter from the posse was relentless. For the next stage, I retrieved my 1860 Colt Kirst Saber River .45 and 1858 Remington NMA Kirst .45 from the truck. Shot clean with those.
I suspect the minimal crimp was the main culprit, with the reduced powder charge not building up much pressure. I now bumped it up to 3.8 grains, with a slightly tighter crimp, but not as severe as I was using. I also set the crimp at the very end of the case mouth. We will see how that does.
NOTE: When using the 140 grain heeled bullet in the .38 Colt case, it does not take up hardly any case capacity, so you really can't use the loading data for an inside lubed 140 grain bullet seated down into the .38 Colt case. With an OAL length of about 1.5", the .38 Colt heeled .38 Colt round is about the same as a 140 grain inside lubed bullet in a .38 Special case, and both rounds have about the same powder capacity. That's why I used .38 Special loading data.
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Interesting how little power the 3.3 gr TB with the light crimp had. I look forward to hearing how your 3.8 gr loads work out.
I wonder how it would work to trim 38 spl cases (1.155") to 38 Short Colt length (.765")?
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Not to be a Snot (All right, I am). It just seems somewhat upside down to develop material and method to duplicate an ancient cartridge/bullet combination and then load said combination with that heathen fad smokeless stuff.
One could have all the huffing and puffing and blowing your house down with a more traditional propellant, reduced and filled with Breakfast Food (OK, like that ain't Oxymoron). Burma Shave.
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I finnally shot some of the 3.8 grains of Trail Boss/140 heeled bullet loads from my 1895 Colt DA. Better than the othes, but still need a little more crimp. Pretty anemic, overall. Might also try Unique....
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I tried the heeled .38 Colts, but they just do not "have it" when it comes to power, barely nocking over the knock downs. Something dawned on me. The performance of the heeled bullets has been pathetic, unless there is a crazy hard crimp that ruins the brass. I know period .375" heeled bullets performed well, as did round ball 36s. What's difference????
Then it downed on me: FFFG black powder doesn't need nearly as much crimp, as it explodes rather than burns like modern propellants. I don't have black, but I have a couple pounds of Triple 7, which behaves more like black powder. I think I need to try some of that with a lighter crimp and see how it does.
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That is an interesting idea. I look forward to hearing what you find with that.