Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Winchester Model 1873 => Topic started by: w44wcf on July 23, 2012, 12:31:31 PM
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1875 Winchester Catalog -
Winchester claimed that their 1873 was effective and accurate at all practical ranges up to 500-600 yards.
So, several years ago, I tested my 1873 Winchester .44 W.C.F. at that distance.
The Ridgway Rifle Club in Ridgway, PA has a high power silhouette range. The steel rams stand 500 meters from the firing line.
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Silhouette/rams500m.jpg)
Ammuntion was the Lyman 427098 bullet (215 grs) over 17 / H4227E. I just barely had enough elevation to get there using the Lyman tang sight at max elevation in combination with the vintage Marbles improved front sight which has a hole underneath the bead. I used the bottom of the hole as the aiming point.
ballistics: start velocity 1,260 f.p.s. / time of flight - 1.65 seconds / terminal velocity 685 f.p.s.
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/Marbleimprovedfrontsight.jpg)
After getting sighted in with the aid of my spotter, from the bench I fired 10 rounds at 10 steel rams (13" high x 32" wide)and managed to connect with 4 of them. My spotter indicated that the other rounds impacted very close to the silhouettes.
Winchester was right! I sure wouldn't want anyone shooting at me with a '73 at that distance!
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/188273a.jpg)
w44wcf
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Excellent post.
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Excellent post.
Much "improved' 'though :D
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Yesterday I took my Vintage 1873 in 38-40 and my Uberti 1873 in 45LC out to the 200yd range.
The Uberti was spot on using the top of the rear buckhorn sight and the front site one the target as opposed to a 6-Oclock hold.
I was using 6.2 Green-Dot under a Lee 255 Tumble Lubed bullet.
Then I took the 38-40 with Lyman 180g over 30g FFF black.
The first few shots using the rear sight all the way up wouldn't even reach 200yds! The bullets just dropped at about 175yds.
I had to aim at the top of the berm. The bullets were going so slow you could pull the trigger, put the gun down, eat a ham sandwich and on the second bite you'd hear the "clang"............!!!!
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Then I took the 38-40 with Lyman 180g over 30g FFF black. The first few shots using the rear sight all the way up wouldn't even reach 200yds! The bullets just dropped at about 175yds.I had to aim at the top of the berm. The bullets were going so slow you could pull the trigger, put the gun down, eat a ham sandwich and on the second bite you'd hear the "clang"............!!!!
I'd love to know what velocity those bullets are moving.
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About 800fps...........
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added to original post:
"ballistics: start velocity 1,260 f.p.s. / time of flight - 1.65 seconds / terminal velocity 685 f.p.s."
At 1.65 seconds, that bullet gets there a lot faster than some might believe. At an arrival velocity of almost 700 f.p.s., the bullet definitely has enough force to put a hostile out of action.
rbertalotto,
I would think your velocity is much closer to 1,200 f.p.s. unless your b.p. is of much lower ballistic strength than normal.
I say that because 30 grs of FFFG in the 44-40 under a 200 gr bullet does 1,150 f.p.s. on he chronograph......
w44wcf
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My average yesterday with 30g of 2F in 45 Colt (255g) was 870 fps. WM
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Well this raises another question in my mind ..... has anyone ever actually chronographed an original BP cartridge?
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Well this raises another question in my mind ..... has anyone ever actually chronographed an original BP cartridge?
IIRC; 44WCF has acheived this task. He will reply with the data again I am sure.
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Well this raises another question in my mind ..... has anyone ever actually chronographed an original BP cartridge?
Kirk,
W.R.A. CO. .44 W.C.F. headstamped cartridges - dead mercuric primers replaced with 1 1/2 Remington's.....
Averaged 1,285 f.p.s. / 24" barrel - add 15 f.p.s. velocity loss to the chrono = almost "spot on" to the 1,301 f.p.s. cataloged velocity.
w44wcf
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Thanks for that info. That can also serve as a benchmark in testing various modern black powders to see which powder gives the closest velocity (for the same case and bullet weight) as the original BP. Some fellows say that modern black is not as good as original black. Others say it is.
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......... Some fellows say that modern black is not as good as original black. Others say it is.
Kirk,
Like today there were a number of b.p types and ballistic strengths back then. The powder in the W.R.A. CO. cartridges was most likely a very good "Sporting Grade" and I was able to shoot a dozen and a half rounds (most I had) with no loss of accuracy using the original two lube grooved bullet. The only other powder produced today that I have been able to do that with is SWISS. Both the powder that Winchester used and Swiss produced minimal fouling and very good accuracy.
The closest powder to Swiss (least fouling) in the 44-40 is KIK but groups with SWISS were better like those produced with the b,p, Winchester used. Worst with the two lube grooved bullet were Goex, Schuetzen and Diamondback.
The ACCURATE 43-215C follows the original 44-40 bullet profile and has proven to shoot very well at 300 meters and will work aok with all of the powders due to its additional lube capacity. aIn the near future I'll see how it holds up at 500 meters.......
Please see the post on b.p. in the 44-40 if you haven't already.
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,40683.0.html
w44wcf
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Good to know about the Swiss powder. I'm not sure I can get it here. I think the local shop only sells Goex, but I'll look into it. I'll also check out that other link you mentioned.
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As a side note to this subject. . . . Winchester did market '73s to Africa and they had a special rear sight with folding leaves that went out to very long ranges. I don't know how much sales they had over there or whether '73s were utilized much on African game. Once in a while one of those with the long range leaf sights appears on Gunbroker.
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Wolfgang,
This was such a rifle on one of the auction sites a couple of years ago.....
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/737leaf.jpg)
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/737leafexpresssight.jpg)
w44wcf
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Great Post,
Just curious, what is the twist rate and barrel lengts of both rifles? (Uberti 45 Colt and the 44-40)
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Uberti Colt 45 is 1/18. WM
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Pappy,
1 in 36 for the '73 Winchester 44 W.C.F.
My 45 Colt Marlin Cowboy has a 1 in 38 inch twist and it shoots very well at extended ranges even with the 350 gr. Ideal / Lyman 457192 bullet that was used in the 45-75 cartridge.
w44wcf
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Hmmmm
Thanks for the reply on the twist rate on the uberti 45. Wonder why they didn't slow it down to about the same for a rifle caliber.......Must have been a take of of the pistol twist rate.
Anybody have a custome barrel in 45 cal put on their uberti?. In reality, I'm betting it will probably be cheeper to get a new rifle in 44-40. After reading all the post, I'm thinking about rebarreling my uberty again. I do have a 24 inch barrel in 44-40 that I got from VTI, though when I put it on the rifle, the head space was a tad tight(bolt would close on an empty cartridge, but would cam over like the lever on a seater die when your reloading) so I put the 45 barrel back on. So, I'm thinking about a little honing and make it fit.
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I've been thinkin about rebarrelling mine with somethin more suitable for extended range shootin. I am just gonna have ta figure out the bullet and powder combo I'm gonna use and work from there. WM
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W44WCF, where can I get a sling like the one pictured?
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Being able to fire at ranges like these (though 300 is the max range I have access to) is part of the reason a .44-40 appeals to me, I don't suppose a fully loaded BP 38spl could ever make it out that far?
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Roland,
I have shot .38 Special b.p. loads (158 gr bullet 21.5 grs b.p.) at 300 meters and they did shoot well and arrived with enough punch to knock down the steel javelina. I have not tried them at 500 but I would venture to say they will certainly reach that far.
Ballistically, it is fairly close to the 44-40 (1,200 vs 1,300 f.p.s.) and the bullet, although lighter, has pretty close to the same b.c. (ballistic coefficient) and would arrive at 500 at pretty close to the same velocity but with about 25% less authority.
Jack,
Sorry I didn't see your post earlier. The sling was a gift to me several years ago. I have checked it for a source but there is nothing on it.
w44wcf
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Not sure if they still have them , but Dixie Gunworks used to list a sling that looked like that . Nice rig.......Dusty.
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Thanks guys
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Howdy , I am looking for a measurment on a Marbels improved sight like I saw here on this thread . Want to duplicate one ,and need the id. of the hole in the sight and the measurement from top of bead to the barrel surface . Any help I would be greatful for. I have not been able to find an original to look at . Thanks .......Dusty.
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Dusty,
Thank you for the info on the sling. Yes they still show that they have them. ;D
Regarding the Marbles front sight..... The one I have measures....
Height - .38. Bottom of dovetail to top of sight
Width - .62
Hole diameter .17
Bead diameter 1/16"
If you need anything else, let me know.
w44wcf
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Thank's for the info help w44wcf. Your input has been a help to me on loading and shooting bp. cartridge ,Again thank's for passing along that savy........Dusty.