Author Topic: Original Trapdoor Rifles  (Read 16068 times)

Offline Jake C

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Original Trapdoor Rifles
« on: May 29, 2015, 02:03:18 PM »
Howdy all!

took a few minutes out of my lunch break to visit my LGS today, and was pleasantly surprised to find a pair of original trapdoor rifles, one for about $1000, another for about $650. As a lover of Old West era weaponry, I was naturally very intrigued.

I didn't have a chance to give them much of a go over; I could only check the bore on the $650 rifle (looked pretty good, btw). Should I put money down on one? To the folks who own them, what do you think of them? Anything to look for to determine usability, or anything else I'd need to know? I'd mainly plan on just using it for plinking, maybe as a deer rifle one day, and something to display.

Thanks folks, I appreciate you all sharing your knowledge and experience.
Win with ability, not with numbers.- Alexander Suvorov, Russian Field Marshal, 1729-1800

Offline Drydock

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Re: Original Trapdoor Rifles
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2015, 02:20:18 PM »
The more commonly found models of Trapdoor run approximately $500-$1500 depending on condition.   I'd have to see these to know what to tell you.  I can say Trapdoors are considered well made weapons, simple, reliable, powerful and accurate with the proper loads.  They were among the first rifles to be entirely made with Bessemer process steel.

www.Trapdoorcollector.com       is a good research site.
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Offline Trailrider

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Re: Original Trapdoor Rifles
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2015, 05:33:46 PM »
Are you looking for one "purely" to shoot, or both as a shooter and a representative collector's piece? A Trapdoor that has had the barrel and forestock cut might still make a dandy shooter, but wouldn't be at all desireable as a collector's piece, and wouldn't be a good investment. A Trapdoor in pretty good shape, and basically unaltered, could still be a good shooter, and might be worth the additional money if you can affod it. If you can get ahold of a set of .45-70 headspace gages, or know a gunsmith who has a set (at least the NO-GO and the FIELD gages), it wouldn't be a bad idea to have the headspace checked out. Also, check the hinge for cracks. Other than that, the only "problem" I can think of with Trapdoor barrels, is they are 3-groove, which makes measuring "groove diameter" more difficult. If initial accuracy doesn't proove to be too good, you might need to go to black powder and 1-20 tin-lead bullet mix, and size the bullet as large as possible over-and-above .457" , but...you might not get a bulleted case to chamber with a bullet that big. The softer bullet and BP will generally take care of it.
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Re: Original Trapdoor Rifles
« Reply #3 on: Today at 03:04:47 AM »

Offline Jake C

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Re: Original Trapdoor Rifles
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2015, 06:25:00 PM »
I don't plan on changing the rifle at all. Both are the full stocked infantry rifles, and while they're a bit heavy, I've always been averse to changing old guns anymore than I have to. I didn't know what to look for to determine if they were the 1873 models or older, so I'll look for that tomorrow. I'm going to see if I can have the shop owners take it to a gunsmith while it's on layaway, if I go that route.

I was planning on using Missouri Bullet Company's #1 Buffalo Hi-tek bullet ( http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=205&category=20&secondary=36&keywords= ), over some Alliant Black MZ (I have a decent supply of it already, think those would be okay?
Win with ability, not with numbers.- Alexander Suvorov, Russian Field Marshal, 1729-1800

Offline Drydock

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Re: Original Trapdoor Rifles
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2015, 07:10:05 PM »
The MZ is fine, but those bullets are far too hard, and the coating is an unneeded expense.  The 3 groove TD barrel likes a soft bullet, Brinnell under 10.  No antimony in the Mix.  I believe the MO bullet co will happily do castings in the appropriate alloy if asked.  The rifles are regulated for either a 405 or 500 grain bullet, depending on the sight.  If the sight folds flat, its probably a "Buffington" sight, regulated for a 500 grain bullet.  If the sight has ramps on either side of the ladder, its one of the older versions, regulated for a 405 grainer.
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Offline pony express

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Re: Original Trapdoor Rifles
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2015, 08:21:34 PM »
I didn't know what to look for to determine if they were the 1873 models or older,

Well, it won't likely be an older model than 1873, unless it's in 50-70.... ;D

If it has a ramrod bayonet, it's one of the later models, last few years of production.

Offline Jake C

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Re: Original Trapdoor Rifles
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2015, 08:35:41 PM »
Well, it won't likely be an older model than 1873, unless it's in 50-70.... ;D

If it has a ramrod bayonet, it's one of the later models, last few years of production.

My bad  ;D younger. No bayonet that I saw.
Win with ability, not with numbers.- Alexander Suvorov, Russian Field Marshal, 1729-1800

Offline Drydock

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Re: Original Trapdoor Rifles
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2015, 09:14:29 PM »
The Ramrod bayonet refers to the M1888 rifle, the last Trapdoors produced.  These have a special ramrod, as well as a double eared catch at the tip of the stock, to lock the ramrod partially out, to use as a bayonet.  If the ramrod has a tip like a Phillips head screwdriver, its a Ramrod bayonet.  Most other TD rifles use the conventional socket bayonet.
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Offline pony express

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Re: Original Trapdoor Rifles
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2015, 09:52:23 PM »
I think aside from the ramrod bayonet models, most all the differences are slight-several different sight designs, slight differences in shape of breechblock, if someone just wants a good shooter, they're all good! Most important thing is condition.

Offline Jake C

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Re: Original Trapdoor Rifles
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2015, 10:29:53 PM »
Condition looked okay, but I'll get a better look tomorrow.

 http://www.cowboybullets.com/
What about this company, would their .45-70 bullets be okay?
Win with ability, not with numbers.- Alexander Suvorov, Russian Field Marshal, 1729-1800

Offline Drydock

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Re: Original Trapdoor Rifles
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2015, 10:40:41 PM »
Yes, that should work quite well.  They're a good outfit.
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Offline Jake C

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Re: Original Trapdoor Rifles
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2015, 07:04:50 AM »
Yes, that should work quite well.  They're a good outfit.

Great, thank you. Also, if I recall, the sights were flat with no ramps on the side, so I'm guessing those are the Buffington sights.
Win with ability, not with numbers.- Alexander Suvorov, Russian Field Marshal, 1729-1800

Offline Jake C

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Re: Original Trapdoor Rifles
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2015, 03:42:25 PM »
Well, I went back to the store today. The $650 was an older model, the $1000 was an 1884 with the ramrod bayonet. Inspection went okay, and the owners of the store guaranteed it to fire, and if there were any issues, they'd get it fixed or refund me in full, so I put money down on the $650 rifle. Just ordered 50 cases of .45-70 brass, and I'll pick up dies and bullets next paycheck.
Win with ability, not with numbers.- Alexander Suvorov, Russian Field Marshal, 1729-1800

Offline Drydock

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Re: Original Trapdoor Rifles
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2015, 04:46:33 PM »
Sounds like a good deal.  Pictures when you get the chance please!   ;D
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Offline Trailrider

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Re: Original Trapdoor Rifles
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2015, 07:05:55 PM »
Modern BRASS .45-70 works fine. Just avoid any long-duration firefights with indiginous people using the original inside primed, copper cases!  ::) ;) I hear Major Reno and Captain Benteen spent most of that fight up on the Greasy Grass prying stuck cases out of their troopers' carbines!  Kidding aside, sounds like you'll have a nice rifle.
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Offline elhombreconnonombre

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Re: Original Trapdoor Rifles
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2015, 03:03:05 AM »
I too came across one of these, reportedly a 1884 model. It appears to have a shorter barrel than the rifle, but it is not a carbine. I know  an unmodified 1884 llwould qualify for shooting in a variety of classes of U.S. military wars. Were these possibly used by other foreign units during the late 19th century?
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Offline pony express

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Re: Original Trapdoor Rifles
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2015, 08:02:14 AM »
I believe there were some Cadet models that were shorter than a full rifle, but still had the same furniture, full length stock, e/ct.

Offline Drydock

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Re: Original Trapdoor Rifles
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2015, 09:20:01 AM »
As has been said, sounds like a Cadet rifle.  Supposedly made for issue to various military academies, they were quite popular with some Regular and State units looking for a shorter, lighter rifle.  No documented foreign use, though some surely made it into Mexico.  The Cadet sights are calibrated for the Carbine round.
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Offline Pitspitr

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Re: Original Trapdoor Rifles
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2015, 09:49:45 AM »
$1000 is cheap for a rod bayonet rifle if it is in any kind of decent shape at all.
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Offline elhombreconnonombre

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Re: Original Trapdoor Rifles
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2015, 05:32:40 PM »
So despite this NOT being used by frontline US troops or foreign armies, rather by military academies and perhaps National Guard/state militias (like the Texas State Guard) back in the day, does a cadet rifle still qualify as a battle rifle for GAF events? Can I pair this with a percussion/.45 LC conversion cylinder replica Remington New Model Army revolver  for sidearm stages, or would I have to go with a more modern "Coltish"  .45 LC SAA.
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