GAF rules

[pony express]

Huh? Military rifle match, with no sling allowed? I almost always use a sling, even when shooting my Krag at our monthly CAS match at 25 yards, mainly because I find the sling helpful in controling the rifle when working the bolt from the shoulder.

And, if the rifle is "cut down", how can it retain origional sights?

[PJ Hardtack]

Pony Express

Bright lad! Go to the head of the class. Not using a sling on a military rifle in any position simply does not compute. But, these guys have not had the benefit of military rifle instruction, and regard the sitting position as 'girly' because (a) they cannot get into it and (b) could not get up from it without assistance.

In my basic, an NCO would walk down the line as we were slung up in the sitting position saying - "Soldier, when I push down on  your rifle barrel, I want to see your (_*_) come off the ground ...." It's a solid as prone for me.

These same Rhodes scholars outlawed my wife's .243 after she consistently outshot them with their .300 and .338 magnums, winning off hand shoot offs on steel out to 300 yds.
Then they upped the calibre to .25 or better, but didn't give enough advance notice. They let her shoot and she won again. Then they upped it to 6.5.

Genius, sheer genius .....

[Drydock]

I would not call it a broughaha, perhaps a meaningful discussion that we would have had sooner or later.  But please, try shooting with us some time, I suspect you'll like it.   

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[RattlesnakeJack]

Todd (PJ Hardtack) is an active military re-enactor (primarily mid-19th Century Royal Engineers) and Cowboy Action Shooter, so I have been pestering him for a long time to join GAF and come along with me to a Muster.

Part of his reluctance up to this point arises from his location: north-central British Columbia.  While it takes me 2 or 3 days to get to a Muster in, say, Kansas ..... he would have a 2-day trip just to get to where I am!

He and his lovely wife, and I, will be doing a presentation on 19th century firearms (.... Victorian-era women's attire, in the case of his wife ....) at Fort Macleod - site of the first permanent NWMP post, located about 3 hours drive west of me - on August 25.  I will continue my recruitment efforts!

[Cowtown Scout]

He and his lovely wife, and I, will be doing a presentation on 19th century firearms (.... Victorian-era women's attire, in the case of his wife ....) at Fort Macleod - site of the first permanent NWMP post, located about 3 hours drive west of me - on August 25.  I will continue my recruitment efforts!

Please get someone to take photos and post pics to share this event with the rest of us.

[RattlesnakeJack]

Please get someone to take photos and post pics to share this event with the rest of us.

I'll do that!

This particular venue is a rather "touristy" log fort located in Fort Macleod, run by the Town.  (http://nwmpmuseum.com) The first original fort was built on an island in the river but, after being flooded out each spring for the first couple of years, it was re-located to a higher site, where a restoration was commenced a few years ago .... although that is currently on hold, I gather: http://www.fortmacleod.com/visiting/attractions/barracks_square.cfm

Anyway, this year is the 40th Anniversary of the Musical Ride as presented at Fort Macleod (along the lines of the real RCMP Musical Ride) .... to be performed for the last times this season on that weekend, so there should be some dandy opportunities for photographs!  (I gather all - or certainly most - of their riders and other summer staff are university students, so that will be the last weekend of their summer season.)

[G.W. Strong]

I thought I would enter the discussion as the only other shooter (other than Jack) at the Department of the Missouri Muster who stayed with black powder through the main match. I have no complaints about how things went and my placement near the bottom of the pile was due to my learning the style of match and my lack of skill more than it was my use of black powder. 

With that being said, I love black powder. It is the correct powder for what I am doing.  Because historical authenticity is important to me I will stay with it even if someday I am able to hone my skills enough to be competitive in this game. Nevertheless black carries distinct disadvantages over smokeless in evenly matched rifles. Let's look at Ned as an example. He a great one because he is, and always will be, a far superior shooter to me. He shot a rolling block of early 1870s design and I shot a trapdoor of early 1870s design. They were both single shot and neither one is inherently superior to the other. Nevertheless, I had to contend with things such as fouling, gun heat, and LOTS OF SMOKE that he did not have to. If we were using the same powder the results would have been the same. Ned would have been at the top of the class and I would have been near the bottom. That is the result of the differences in our skills not in our propellant choices. However, if there was a shooter who was evenly matched with Ned but chose the historically correct powder I think the results would be predictable-- Ned in first and the unnamed Black Powder shooter of equal skill in second. I would like to see us  maintain a separate class for those who choose to be historically correct despite its limitations.

I want this to be clear, I love the fact that people who like smokeless can use it. I shoot about 1/3 of my CAS matches with smokeless because of its convenience. And I am not in any way suggesting that shooters who choose smokeless for a rifle designed for black are being gamers or are cheating. I just would like to see us not inadvertently encourage our members to shy away from the historically correct powder (for many of these single shot rifles) because we are enacting procedures that place the disadvantages of using black in the way of being successful in a match.

Just my 2 Cents.

I cannot wait to do this again!

[Pitspitr]

I had never shot anything but BP in my Victorian Era firearms until I purchased a Henry in 45 LC. and started CAS-ing. Nobody else in my club shot BP and I was told that Henries in .45 don't work well with BP. When I attended my first muster in '05 it seemed to me as well that there wasn't anything in place to encourage BP (or museum quality uniforms either) so I modified my habits since I didn't care for cleaning BP weapons in motel rooms anyway. Now that my job situation has changed I don't have the time for re-loading so my lazyness has continued. With the new emphasis on improved uniforming perhaps it is time to change my loading habits.

As a wise man once said,

I show up, you tell me the rules, I adapt and overcome.

[Guns Garrett]

It appears I will be sort of a "Red-Headed step child" in the coming Muster, as it has become necessary for me to shoot BP in my SS rifle, but my handgun loads will be smokeless.  The personna I will be portraying is at the very beginning of the smokeless era (1880-81), but not North American, (tho my pistol is) so that is how it is.  My main reason for this is I use a progressive reloader for pistol ammo, and I am not set up to load BP in my machine.  I normally use a single-stage loader for my rifle ammo.  Hope this does not cause any disagreements.   Since GAF "classes" are based on the rifle, would this place me in a "BP" class?

The main reason my wife and I attend is to enjoy the cameraderie of good friends, and shooting old(style) guns - in that order.

[pony express]

I expect it was pretty much normal, in that day and time, to have a rifle with one kind of powder, and pistol with another. But I expect it was probably more often BP in the handgun, with the rifle smokeless.

[Drydock]

As the vast majority of shootin will be done with the rifle, that will put you in the BP class for now.  But really, all you need is a Lee dipper, leave the Powder measure empty on your progressive, and dip your BP charge into the pistol case after expanding it.  Thats how I do it on my Dillon SDB, dipping the powder from a Coffee mug next to the press.  Now if you have a progressive that uses conventional dies, simply get a Lee Powder Thru die for that stage, and dip the powder into the case via the die.

[RattlesnakeJack]

Yes .... it isn't as if you need a lot of handgun ammo.  At the Missouri Muster, I don't think we had more than 18 pistol targets in total in the three main stages, did we?

I load my BP .455 revolver cartridges in my single-stage press ..... but I can see that Chuck's suggestions would work well also.

So, Guns ..... what is your non-North American persona?  
(Or are you planning to surprise us?    )  
Look forward to seeing Penny and yourself, in any event!

[pony express]

Well, he's already mentioned something about Martini henry, and needing financing to get enough brass for a match, but that still leaves a lot of variations possible!

[Guns Garrett]

SHHHH...be vewy,vewy quiet...I'm hunting Rooineks...

[Guns Garrett]

Two brothers, circa 1645:  one emmigrated to Fort Oranje, Nieuw Nederland, and took the name "van de Poel", the other emmigrated to "de Kaap" and took the name "van Dort" ("from Dordrecht").  Last names didn't really catch on in the Netherlands till very late in the 17th Century.

Wynant Gerrittse "van de Poel" took his name from living "at the pool" or mill-pond of his sawmill he built and operated, on "Wynant's  Kill" (Wynant's Creek) now known as Wynantskill, NY, a suburb of Troy.

Not sure what happened to van Dort.

[Guns Garrett]

Don't know how many times I have seen the topic, but it just hit me:

"GAF Rules"


Why, YES IT DOES!

[Gripmaker]

Just wondering! Does all this fouferrah apply to Staff Officer also? I sure don't want that to get any more difficult. ;>) Besides, I sure don't see any real advantage in shooting smokeless in a BP firearm. Of course, I have the time to develope cleaner more accurate BP loads to shoot against smokeless in either rifle or handgun (presently working up 300-500 yd loads for 44wcf). Maybe we could have a stage where smokeless and BP shooters just exchanged weapons. It sure would be an interesting time and would seem to be a surefire field leveler.

Ever the Instigator,
LTC Montgomery Little, Senior Chaplain, GAF

[Drydock]

We'll just have you shoot bp with your right hand, and smokeless with your left . . .   

[Pitspitr]

Guns What caliber sidearm are you using? I may have some BP .45 LC

[Guns Garrett]

I will be shooting .45 Colt.  I have smokeless ammo to shoot, but yes I wouldn't mind trying out some BP loads, just for a change.  Maybe we can just trade?