Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Darksider's Den => Topic started by: Froogal on January 18, 2021, 12:53:31 PM
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Actually the results are not yet all that conclusive, but I just want to relate a bit.
I loaded 10 .45 Colt shells with 30 grains of the FFF, and another 10 with 25 grains and one .7cc dipper of cream of wheat. 200 grain lead round nose, flat point bullet. Cimarron 5 1/2" barrel.
Shot the reduced loads first with no issues. Ejected those spent rounds and then loaded up the full, 30 grain loads. Again, no issues, and not much difference in noise, but when I tried to eject them, I could get only one, and the cylinder locked up. I pulled the base pin and the cylinder came out with just a little persuasion, but the base pin bushing required even more persuasion to remove from the cylinder.
I have more to learn, but for now, I think I will stick with 25 grains and cream of wheat.
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Had you had the cylinder bushing out of the cylinder previously? They can be a bear to get out the first time on some guns.
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Had you had the cylinder bushing out of the cylinder previously? They can be a bear to get out the first time on some guns.
Yes. I've not shot this particular gun a LOT of times, but it is always cleaned thoroughly after each session.
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:) Froogal ;)
The Cylinder Base Pin Bushing may need to be "dressed" (fancy term for polished). Chuck it up an a Drill Motor and light wrap some 1000 Grit Wet/Dry and polish bearing surface of the Bushing. Then test for a "tight spot."
Stay Safe out there
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:) Froogal ;)
The Cylinder Base Pin Bushing may need to be "dressed" (fancy term for polished). Chuck it up an a Drill Motor and light wrap some 1000 Grit Wet/Dry and polish bearing surface of the Bushing. Then test for a "tight spot."
Stay Safe out there
I cleaned the gun just awhile ago. The base pin and base pin bushing both cleaned up very well, and functioned fine after cleaning. I usually put a few drops of oil on the pin and bushing, but this time I gave each a light coating of wheel bearing grease.
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I cleaned the gun just awhile ago. The base pin and base pin bushing both cleaned up very well, and functioned fine after cleaning. I usually put a few drops of oil on the pin and bushing, but this time I gave each a light coating of wheel bearing grease.
Everyone has their own thing. Lots swear by Mobile 1 synthetic grease, different types of oils, etc, but the best thing I've found and my go to lubricant for cowboy guns especially ones that see black powder is Lubriplate engine assembly lube.
Had some laying around from back in my racing and engine building days and got to thinking if that stuff will stay on bearings long enough for the few hundred revolutions until oil pressure takes over then it will have to work on a gun.
The only downside to lubing the action of a gun with it is if it's a gun that doesn't get used regularly the stuff eventually dries out and get pasty so I only put it in guns that get used and that will be torn down and relubed every year or three. On base pins and the bushings it's great.
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Everyone has their own thing. Lots swear by Mobile 1 synthetic grease, different types of oils, etc, but the best thing I've found and my go to lubricant for cowboy guns especially ones that see black powder is Lubriplate engine assembly lube.
Had some laying around from back in my racing and engine building days and got to thinking if that stuff will stay on bearings long enough for the few hundred revolutions until oil pressure takes over then it will have to work on a gun.
The only downside to lubing the action of a gun with it is if it's a gun that doesn't get used regularly the stuff eventually dries out and get pasty so I only put it in guns that get used and that will be torn down and relubed every year or three. On base pins and the bushings it's great.
I guess I should clarify WHY I chose to use wheel bearing grease. THAT is what was already in the basement workshop, and close to the gun cleaning/reloading bench. The stuff I used is NOT anywhere close to the wheel bearing grease of yesteryear that had the thick, stringy particles in it. It is just a smooth grease.
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When loading 45 Colt ammo I charge the empty primed brass with 2.3cc of Holy Black, either FFFg or FFg. Then a 200 grain J/P45-200 Big Lube® bullet is seated to the crimp grove and lightly crimped (just enough crimp to make them "pocket safe") FWIW, I've never had an extraction problem even after shooting a 3 day annual match with either 73 rifle or Ruger pistols.
All that said, my favorite round for my 1860 open tops with Kirst Konverter cylinders is the shorter 45 Cowboy Special with the same bullet but only 20grains of BP. Also, no extraction questions.
DD-MDA
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I guess I should clarify WHY I chose to use wheel bearing grease. THAT is what was already in the basement workshop, and close to the gun cleaning/reloading bench. The stuff I used is NOT anywhere close to the wheel bearing grease of yesteryear that had the thick, stringy particles in it. It is just a smooth grease.
The Mobile 1 synthetic most use is a wheel bearing grease. What your using is probably a Lithium. Many swear by it I was just pointing out my experience with the engine assembly lube. It was a situation like yours, I tried it because I had some and discovered how well it works. It is lighter weight than wheel bearing grease which is considered #2 grade. This is more like #0 thickness white lithium but I suppose it must have some special moly and other additives in it for lubrication on engine bearing surfaces on start up.
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A curious thought crossed my mind, what about graphite based lubes?
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The Mobile 1 synthetic most use is a wheel bearing grease. What your using is probably a Lithium. Many swear by it I was just pointing out my experience with the engine assembly lube. It was a situation like yours, I tried it because I had some and discovered how well it works. It is lighter weight than wheel bearing grease which is considered #2 grade. This is more like #0 thickness white lithium but I suppose it must have some special moly and other additives in it for lubrication on engine bearing surfaces on start up.
I think maybe, just maybe, the reason the base pin bushing became tight is because some residue, or maybe even unburned powder, found its way into the very small gap between the bushing and the cylinder. Anyhow, That is what it looked like. My thoughts are that maybe the grease will seal up that gap?
I wanted to shoot some more today and test my theory, but the wind is blowing something fierce. It would blow the black smoke away so fast that I wouldn't get to enjoy it.
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Always use Mobil 1 with excellent results !!!!
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...I wanted to shoot some more today and test my theory, but the wind is blowing something fierce. It would blow the black smoke away so fast that I wouldn't get to enjoy it.
More than once I have been prepared to go shoot BP at a CAS match, but the wind was blowing so much that morning that I switched out and shot smokeless instead. You can't smoke up the posse with the smoke immediately gone, what's the fun of that? :)
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:) Froogal ;)
I only use TWO lubricants in my Guns. ALL of my guns are shot with BP or Subs. For a grease application my "go-to" is Mobil 1. A tube of Mobil 1 may last near forever. For light oiling application I use Mobil 1 motor oil. Both are synthetic and play extremely well with BP/Subs.
I shoot BP/Subs at matches, windy or not. My only concession is when it's cool or damp. Then I go with Suppositories.
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When I was racing I swore by Mobile 1 oil for engines and grease for bearings. The stuff is actually incredible in lubrication and oil temps don't affect engine power like regular oils.
When I heard of people using Mobile 1 grease in their guns I thought awesome I've got 100 year supply of that laying around. It makes sense being synthetic but I personally was disappointed in the results with the grease. Not that it doesn't work good because it does but the engine assembly lube works better for me.
Are you guys using the Mobile synthetic using the EP1 or the EP2? It might be that what I had laying around is EP2 and is just too thick.
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Hey Cliff ;)
Dunno. I'd have to go down and look, and the Shop is colder than a Witches . . . . and I'm warm and lazy.
Anyway, when using Mobil 1 Grease, I don't slather it. It is some thick (Preferred for Cap Gun Arbors). It also induces some small amount to drag to the rotation of the cylinder when playing with it. I don't know that I notice that after the "buzzard" sounds. Following assembly and during a CAS activity, I don't add more grease. I lube with a small bottle of Mobil 1 motor oil. 5 - 40 I think. It's downstairs too.
Stay Safe out There
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Apparently the grease I used did the job. Shot another 10 rounds today without incident. I might add that the grease I used is Lucas wheel bearing grease. Green in color.
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Since I started shooting BP 20 plus years ago it's always been bore butter. Any new gun gets cleaned and degreased with brake cleaner. Put it back together bore butter everything. I have never had any problems with my guns not functioning with this method. I use REM oil in the actions. I have used Elephant, Goex, Subs, Swiss all with same results. Plus easy to clean..
Doc
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I loaded 10 .45 Colt shells with 30 grains of the FFF, and another 10 with 25 grains and one .7cc dipper of cream of wheat. 200 grain lead round nose, flat point bullet. Cimarron 5 1/2" barrel.
Shot the reduced loads first with no issues. ....
Please also see my note in your thread about smokless burn rates...
I would like to suggest, that since this load with filler worked well, shot clean, ejected nicely, and produced little fouling...
WHY NOT STICK WITH WHAT WORKS?
The filler is obviously doing "something" good for you, in your pistol, whether it is making "the right comression",
the "right internal pressures for excellent burn" or scouring out the crap....
It is simple and apparently produces the pressure and burn that the BP needs to burn (almost?) completely.
Why mess with good results?
yhs
pof marvel
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Please also see my note in your thread about smokless burn rates...
I would like to suggest, that since this load with filler worked well, shot clean, ejected nicely, and produced little fouling...
WHY NOT STICK WITH WHAT WORKS?
The filler is obviously doing "something" good for you, in your pistol, whether it is making "the right comression",
the "right internal pressures for excellent burn" or scouring out the crap....
It is simple and apparently produces the pressure and burn that the BP needs to burn (almost?) completely.
Why mess with good results?
yhs
pof marvel
You make a good point. Pretty much the same conclusion that I came to. Also, cream of wheat is less costly than Goex, so this will let me stretch out my supply of powder.
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:) Froogal ;)
The Perfesser has excellent points (does a job on his hats though). You've stumbled on something that works well for you and your guns. Stick with it. I've been using Breakfast Food for filler for years and years. Cream-0-Wheat just works super well. Since Cream-0-Wheat doesn't compress, makes just an excellent filler to produce compression with BP.
Go For It
Stay safe out there
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:) Froogal ;)
The Perfesser has excellent points (does a job on his hats though). You've stumbled on something that works well for you and your guns. Stick with it. I've been using Breakfast Food for filler for years and years. Cream-0-Wheat just works super well. Since Cream-0-Wheat doesn't compress, makes just an excellent filler to produce compression with BP.
Go For It
Stay safe out there
I'm still learning. Even at 70 years old, and I welcome ALL input. I've shot this load so far in only one six-shooter. Haven't tried the rifle yet, but I expect it to work.
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You make a good point. Pretty much the same conclusion that I came to. Also, cream of wheat is less costly than Goex, so this will let me stretch out my supply of powder.
Oh yes, cow IS cheaper than Goex!
I am certainly cheap frugal, and try to be pragmatic practical
Yhs
Prof Marvel
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I haven't shot COW as a filler in years but do recall that it tended to scrub the bore and I had less fouling. It just meant that I needed another flask to pour the COW on top the powder. Woe to he who gets the flasks mixed up. Don't ask me how I know that. Uh, he was a "friend". ::)
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I have now loaded about 300 .45 Colt cartridges with Goex fff and cream of wheat. I am a bit amazed at just how fast a guy can go through just one pound of powder. I have more brass, and bullets, and powder, but I have depleted my supply of large pistol primers. I am still okay, for now.
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I'm still learning. Even at 70 years old, and I welcome ALL input. I've shot this load so far in only one six-shooter. Haven't tried the rifle yet, but I expect it to work.
Okay. Got around to testing those loads in my rifle. Loaded 10, the first 2 rounds hit the targets as intended and the rest were all misses. Loaded up 10 more and ALL were misses. Went to the house and grabbed a box that was loaded with Unique, loaded 10, ALL were misses. Back to the house and gave the rifle a thorough cleaning and bore inspection. Looked good after cleaning. Loaded up again with the smokeless loads and the results were totally different. Hit the targets 9 out of 10 times, loaded up again and hit 9 times out of 10.
I'll try again with the black powder, but so far it looks like my Rossi '92 just doesn't like Goex FFF and cream of wheat.
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Froogal, I don't think you ever mentioned what bullet or lube you are using. You need soft BP-compatible lube for the bullets. The filler reduces the power and stretches your BP supply but doesn't keep the fouling soft.
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Froogal, I don't think you ever mentioned what bullet or lube you are using. You need soft BP-compatible lube for the bullets. The filler reduces the power and stretches your BP supply but doesn't keep the fouling soft.
I cast my own from 1-20 lead from Roto-Metals. 200 grain rnfp. SPG lube.
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What bullet are you using? Might not have enough lube capacity for a 20" barrel?
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I think almost any bullet holds enough lube for a 20" barrel, unless the humidity is low. For more than 2 shots, anyway! My rifles are max 20", and my BP bullets are all smokeless bullets relubed with my homemade mix, and has always been fine. But there is usually some humidity here.
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Just for the record, there was NO indication of leading in the barrel. It was just fouling from the powder. I squirted some Ballistol down the barrel, let it soak for a bit, and then ran HOT water through it, followed with a bore snake. The bore was then clean. NO fouling. NO leading, and then the smokeless loads worked just fine.
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Here's my experience. I would have liked to use the Snakebite "Greasewagon" bullet (from BigLube.com) but it did not feed reliably enough for me in my Rossi '92s. YMMV. Here's what I found: I could shoot the Lyman 158gr 358311 bullet with a BP lube into 1.5"@50 yds if I did a "pull through" (wet swab) between stages. The problem was I got tired of having black gunk splat onto my shirt sleeves that doesn't come out in the wash. So I found that the same load in the 357 Mag of 22 grs FFFg would shoot all day if I put two beeswax discs under the bullet before seating. That gave it the extra lube it needed. The problem was that load grouped about 5-6"@50 yards which, at the time was not acceptable to me so I went to 15grs (wt) of FFFg 777 and never looked back (tight group and no fouling to speak of). One thing that has changed is the rifle targets have gotten a lot closer than in the Old Days of SASS. A 5-6" group would not be a handicap now that the targets are only about 10 yards out. The beeswax discs were made of medium brood core for beekeepers. Check beekeeping suppliers for better prices but hobby stores carry it in colored sheets to be rolled around candle wicks for candle making.
So, if I can no longer get 3F 777 I will gladly go back to FFF Goex and add the beeswax discs and shoot all day.
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Okay. I put 30+ rounds of the Goex/cream of wheat loads through my Uberti 7 1/2" barrel yesterday. All were as accurate as I am and no fouling or leading. Do I try those loads in the rifle again?
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Shoot another 10. If it fouls out after a few rounds you have confirmed the fact that your rifle doesn't like the load. The BP/COW loads generally work well in the shorter barreled pistols. A soft BP type lube might make the difference in your Rossi with the COW loads. I am guessing the COW gets spread out in the longer rifle barrel and the last 4-8" are dry crudded up. You can tell by dropping a weighted cord and a dry swab down the chamber and as you pull toward the muzzle you will feel the buildup. A BP lube might make the fouling just soft enough to get scrubbed out by the COW.
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Shoot another 10. If it fouls out after a few rounds you have confirmed the fact that your rifle doesn't like the load. The BP/COW loads generally work well in the shorter barreled pistols. A soft BP type lube might make the difference in your Rossi with the COW loads. I am guessing the COW gets spread out in the longer rifle barrel and the last 4-8" are dry crudded up. You can tell by dropping a weighted cord and a dry swab down the chamber and as you pull toward the muzzle you will feel the buildup. A BP lube might make the fouling just soft enough to get scrubbed out by the COW.
I am considering loading up a few more with straight Goex, or maybe some Old Eynsford and NOT use any COW. Wondering if that might make a difference?