Author Topic: Schofield  (Read 2435 times)

Offline Drydock

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Re: Schofield
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2021, 03:30:07 PM »
Just to continue the speculation: This Schofield has a rather long, generous forcing cone, combined with a relatively tight (.008) barrel /cylinder gap.  Forcing cones vary wildly on the Uberti's, from ones like mine to none at all.  It is my thought that a more generous cone leads to better operation with BP, catching and holding more of the lateral dispersal behind the bullet until the pressure drop of the bullets departure draws more particulate matter down the bore.  Also a tighter cylinder gap increases the velocity of the escaping gas/fouling, helping keep the cylinder face cleaner.  (Bernoulli's law) My 5" Schofield has a decent forcing cone, but not as good as the new one.  (That is actually older)  I also have a Uberti #3 Russian in .44 RUssian, and it's cone splits the difference between the two schofields, and it's performance reflects it.

 Most recent production I've seen tends toward the "None at all" end of the spectrum.

Simply put, I suspect the better performing Italian top breaks have proper forcing cones.  Opening up the forcing cone to proper spec would help a lot on many I feel.  Combine with a generous lube capacity in a smaller case (Russian, Schofield, C.S.)  you might get acceptable performance.  I cannot speak for the 2000 S&Ws, but it probably would not hurt to check.
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Offline Abilene

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Re: Schofield
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2021, 08:51:43 PM »
...Simply put, I suspect the better performing Italian top breaks have proper forcing cones.  Opening up the forcing cone to proper spec would help a lot on many I feel.  ...

Interesting theory.  It should be a good project for some Schofield owner (who hasn't been able to shoot BP in it) to load up some BP ammo and test by shooting some and documenting how long til binding up.  Then cleaning gun, opening cone, and shooting same ammo.  Then later they could try other things like different ammo or bullets. 

I wonder if 11 degrees would be the goal, similar to some SAA's?

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Schofield
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2021, 08:36:28 AM »

I am fairly certain most know the largest reason the Replica Schofields (include the Smythe 2000) do not fair well on BP.  When Uberti lengthened the cylinder to accept 45 Colt (why were they dumb enough to do that), the longer cylinder eliminated a very important Cylinder Bushing that was also, by design, a superb deflector of Gun Gas.

Also, the forcing cone at the barrel breach is quite important.  I a "sort of" answer to Abilene's question, I, for years have added the popular 11 degree forcing cone to ALL of the Cap Guns I build.

I have heard from several sources, of folks having good luck with 44 Russian cases in Schofield and some success with Cowboy 45 Special.  No Guarantee though, as this is second and third hand information.  My own experience, first hand, is Replica Schofield DO NOT play well with BP.  Best of luck though.  Schofields should play with BP.

Offline St. George

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Re: Schofield
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2021, 09:07:54 AM »
If you go to the 'Frontier Iron' forum and do some digging, you'll find that a myriad of questions and answers will tell you the tale of the Schofield.

You'll learn about the S&W Model 2000 and how it came to be, the early replicas and their manufacturers, gunsmithing and reloading for same.

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Offline DeaconKC

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Re: Schofield
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2021, 08:28:23 PM »
I will offer my personal perspective on why the lengthening of the Schofield cylinder to .45 Colt was a good business idea. Personally, even though I do reload, I probably would not have gotten a Schofield had it only been in .44 Russian. I now own two of them because I could use the Colt round, simplifying my ammo logistics. Not being a shooter of the holy black, they run fine on smokeless. But I think there are a lot of shooters out there like me, that a Schofield in .44 Russian would have been bypassed.
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Re: Schofield
« Reply #25 on: Today at 02:25:32 PM »

Offline Pitspitr

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Re: Schofield
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2021, 07:46:05 AM »
...Simply put, I suspect the better performing Italian top breaks have proper forcing cones.  Opening up the forcing cone to proper spec would help a lot on many I feel.  ...
I've had 2 Uberti Schofields. The first one shot black all day long and wouldn't foul out. It was one of the short barreled models and I wanted the full army length barrel. When I got the chance to buy a full length model, I gave the shorty to my son. Now the full length model has been a lemon from day 1. It didn't have the least bit of a forcing cone, so I bought a forcing cone cutting kit from Brownell's and proceeded to cut one. I actually ended up cutting the cone a little too deep even, but it  still won't shoot BP.

Of course, it wouldn't shoot smokeless without locking up either (until I found the issue, but that's another story)
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Offline Niederlander

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Re: Schofield
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2021, 09:22:39 AM »
If ya'll would just shoot Colts like God intended, you wouldn't have these problems!
"There go those Nebraskans, and all hell couldn't stop them!"

Offline Dave T

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Re: Schofield
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2021, 10:19:02 AM »
If ya'll would just shoot Colts like God intended, you wouldn't have these problems!

I'm very inclined to agree with you and think the Ordnance Dept should have followed that advice in 1875 but no they had to play with the Schofield and ultimately ruin the issue 45 Colt cartridge to allow for the wimpier S&W (lol).

To understand what shooting a Schofield was like I bought the S&W 2000 version when I got the chance. The man who sold it to me said he didn't think it would run with BP but I was hoping Big Lube bullets and higher grades of BP would make it possible. Hope springs eternal but don't take it to the bank. Big Lube bullets and OE powder still fouled the Schofield so bad I couldn't get through more than 4 shots in a row.

Dave

Offline Drydock

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Re: Schofield
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2021, 11:14:38 AM »
The numbers would indicate these things are built in small batchs, mostly by hand.  Everything varies,  including cylinder to frame clearance.  A few thousanths here and there is probably the difference between one that works with BP and the ones that just won't.  Cases that are in the .44 Russian volume range seem to work best.  I'm very lucky to have one that works great, and two that are acceptable. 

Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline St. George

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Re: Schofield
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2021, 12:05:58 PM »
Neither S&W nor Uberti built these to be used with black powder - that someone would do so didn't even register.

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Re: Schofield
« Reply #30 on: Today at 02:25:32 PM »

Offline Dave T

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Re: Schofield
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2021, 08:32:32 PM »
Neither S&W nor Uberti built these to be used with black powder - that someone would do so didn't even register.

Scouts Out!

Short sighted fools, both of them! Who builds antique designed firearms and and never considers they might be fired with the original ammunition and propellent? Guess S&W and Uberti do.

Dave

Offline Drydock

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Re: Schofield
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2021, 11:02:58 PM »
To be fair, I suspect less than 1% of purchasers would have even tried BP, and they have to be chambered for readily available factory ammunition that does not exceed their pressure tolerance.  BP ammunition pretty much requires handloading, which voids the warrenty.  Frankly, the vast majority of folks who have bought these are not CAS shooters either.

 To even have them being made at all is something of a marketing miracle.  I'm amazed Uberti is still making them 26 years later.
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Offline Major 2

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Re: Schofield
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2021, 12:51:57 AM »
To be fair, I suspect less than 1% of purchasers would have even tried BP, and they have to be chambered for readily available factory ammunition that does not exceed their pressure tolerance.  BP ammunition pretty much requires handloading, which voids the warranty.  Frankly, the vast majority of folks who have bought these are not CAS shooters either.

 To even have them being made at all is something of a marketing miracle.  I'm amazed Uberti is still making them 26 years later.

Exactly,  and not only still making them , but still introducing variations I:E: the latest American model. 

S&W discontinued their offering as non-profitable in the niche market, however
Uberti, nothing short sighted or foolish,  thrives there as USFA's Donnelly ultimately discovered.


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Offline Dave T

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Re: Schofield
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2021, 10:15:39 AM »
Well then I stand corrected!

Dave

Offline Tuolumne Lawman

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Re: Schofield
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2021, 07:59:50 PM »
I have loaded BP, Pryodex, and 777 for the Schofield.  My best results were with FFG Goex, a big grove SPG lubed bullet, a grease cookie under the bullet, and the cylinder arbor greased up with SPG.  IIRC, I could get about two stages with it, before I had to start squirting it with Moose Milk between stages.  It seemed to get the fouling but not the grease.

I handled an original Schofield and have shot some original No. 3 Russians.  They all had a generous baffle on the front of the cylinder around the arbor, protruding well below the rear of the barrel and forcing cone.  It was effective at keeping BP fouling off the innards of the cylinder and around the barrel.  A few years ago, someone was actually retrofitting Schofields with an Uberti Open Top style baffle.
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Offline Abilene

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Re: Schofield
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2021, 08:09:08 PM »
Driftwood Johnson has posted pics in the past about his Schofield with "BP friendly" mods machined by Happy Trails.

Offline Drydock

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Re: Schofield
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2021, 09:13:09 PM »
Original S&W Top breaks of all types also had quite a dramatic cut away sculpting at the topstrap juncture above the barrel to help divert fouling away from that critical area.  I doubt modern pressure/strength requirements would allow that to be done now.
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Offline Dave T

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Re: Schofield
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2021, 10:24:42 AM »
Driftwood Johnson has posted pics in the past about his Schofield with "BP friendly" mods machined by Happy Trails.

Just sent a PM to Happy Trails asking what modifications were done and if he's still doing that kind of work. Hope to hear something positive on the subject.

Dave

Offline Drydock

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Re: Schofield
« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2021, 07:21:36 PM »
fwiw put 43 bp rounds thru it today.  One fast session out on the farm to clear a box of loose rounds to reload.  These were 20 grains 3f Olde Eynesford beneath a 454190 lubed with 50/50 olive oil/beeswax, in a CS case.  Wanted to reload with 3f 777 so they would work in my other Schofield as well.  85 degrees, 70% humidity.   No hangups, no drag, cylinder still spun free after the last round.  And it was HOT!  Very accurate as well, all my 45s really like that bullet.  Not as much powder as the earlier rounds, but not as much lube either.  Teardown for clean shows almost no fouling on the arbor.  Lube was straight Ballistol.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Tuolumne Lawman

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Re: Schofield
« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2021, 09:15:17 PM »
I wouldn't mind my Schofield being able to shoot BP.  I wonder how much it costs to put that collar on....
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