Kevin Tinny - Part 6: Centerfire Conversion Upper Blocks

[Two Flints]

CENTERFIRE Conversion Upper Blocks:

These replace original rim-fire upper blocks to allow center-fire rounds to be cycled from the tube magazine and fired in otherwise ORIGINAL 1860 56-56 and 1865 and later 56-50 versions. 

Rim-fire replacement upper blocks have ALSO been made as replacements for ORIGINALS.

The center-fire block is only HALF the change.  The other half involves using a center-fire CASE that MATCHES the chamber and BORE dimensions.

Searching the INTERNET for “Belgian 56-50 center-fire Spencer Rifles” will produce information about CENTER-FIRE “conversions” and center-fire original production during the 1871 to 1880 era in Belgium via the Falise and Trappman Spencer with BOTH its conversion via a WEDGE in the upper block AND also via original production center-fire blocks.  There are INTERNET photo’s of these blocks and of at least one solid base, foil wrap body C-F CASE made in BRAZIL.  Brazil also imported “surplus” American Spencer’s and Belgian guns in rim-fire and with center-fire conversions that might have been done in Belgium and Brazil. 

Center-fire 56-50 Spencer’s date to the 1880’s with center-fire ammunition being made for the Belgian ones in Belgium, England and Brazil.  Searching on the CAS/SSS Forum for the same subjects, will produce threads about ORIGINAL “sporter” Spencer’s with OLDER center-fire blocks dating to the early 1900’s.

“Snakeeater” shared that he has seen an old C-F upper block on S&S’s website that looked smaller and was probably for 44 caliber, small-framed/sporter Spencer ORIGINAL.  Nice.

There is another “BLOCK” reality – MODERN “appearing” RIMFIRE ONES:
David Stavlo of Lodgewood indicated that it is NOT uncommon to find “gray” receiver ORIGIANAL Spencers with MINT, well colored, RIM-FIRE block assemblies that SEEM MODERN.  These are probably ORIGINAL blocks salvaged AS NEW from Bannerman’s.  These were quite common and extensively sold by DIXIE.  They appear in original Spencers and confuse people that the blocks are MODERN. 

The available information on early center-fire blocks amounts to:
F&T Belgian. 1870’s’.  Possible Brazilian. 1880’s.
Documented via CAS/SSS, first quarter of the 1900’s, one-off custom gunsmith conversions.
Again, the distinction/question for OLD ones is were they IN 56-56 or 56-50 guns?

A post on CAS/SSS by Roscoe Coles on Dec. 1, 2014 under “**Additional Photos Added ** Picked up an
interesting new Spencer Rifle shows NICE PHOTOS of an OLD CENTERFIRE block conversion for a
smoothbore rifle 7130.  The pin is ONE-piece, angled to contact the hammer tip, with NO rebound spring. 

The modern ones during 1970 – 2020: (These do NOT include blocks IN modern C-F reproductions.)

There ARE dimensional differences in some of the recent era blocks that might require SKILLED fitting to certain ORIGINAL Spencer’s, especially those that were possibly rejected (even some with cartouches on their stocks sold to State Militia Units) because they DID cycle 56-50 rim-fire rounds.  VERIFY dimensions! 

An Internet search for “Belgian C-F Spencer upper blocks” indicates someone using the name, “The Hussar”, was selling a center-fire upper block for re-enactors in the 1970’s.  No indication of any of his being “SAC” approved.
     
The Tennessee “Spencer” parts outfit in Portland TN, NEVER made a complete Spencer and DID/DOES make C-F conversion blocks with DIFFERENT DIMENSIONS and possibly inertia/non-inertia pins.  Not sure if “SAC” approved.  At least one Forum poster indicated he had spoken with this outfit and been told THEY made the BACO ones. If this TN location IS the one for BACO’s, the machinist retired as of late 2019 and BACO, per Tom Gullo, is
not presently searching for another supplier because of slow sales of the item.


S & S Guns of Glendale, NY had/has them built “by an outside machine shop”, in TWO centerfire and ONE
RIM-FIRE versions, early unmarked and now with an “&” stamped on the top, front of the block that is SAC approved.  Photo’s on SSS show “Black Powder Only” on one side.
   
Lodgewood Guns also had them.  David Stavlo of Lodgewood told me on 10 Feb 2020 that he USED to carry   
conversion blocks as a service to his customers but that demand is way down.  He said he got HIS from the same
place as S & S, a machine shop in PA, NY?  David is not sure if that shop is still active.

“Snakeeater” posted helpful photo’s of the BACO and S & S blocks and internals under CAS/SSS: “Centerfire Conversion Block in New Model” by davej7806’s Thread. See Snakeeater at POST #4 of 18Oct13.  Thanks.

Also helpful with photo’s is: “Spencer Carbine Fix and Upper Breech Blocks Compared” 28 AUG 2011, on
CAS/SSS, Reply #6 of Sep 11, 2011.  Same number of parts with slightly different shape to striker bar.

Dixie Gun Works has them.

Blair Taylor made TWO examples of HIS C-F prototype block and shared that the S&S one pre-dates HIS.
The striker assembly was made by Dan Whitacre and is like the trapdoor 45-70 design.

The Buffalo Arms one has “BACO” on it.  It is SAC approved.  As of January 2020, it is out-of-stock.

Mike Newhouse marked “MN”.  It is SAC approved.  I have not located a source for Mike’s.

Tony Beck marked “AB”.  It is SAC approved.  Tony is “Arizona Trooper” on CAS/SSS.

Larry Romano, INERTIA style; “SAC” approved marked “LRRCO”.  These were fitted to ORIGINALS.
In addition, a CAS/SSS Thread: “Spencer Carbine Exact Match – Wow!!! of 04JUL13 by “El Tio Loco”
indicates Romano made C-F conversion blocks with INERTIA firing pins. 
 
A CAS/SSS Thread, of “Harve Curry” on 05FEB06 indicates there were also instances when INDIVIDUAL Spencer owners had them made.

Tony Beck, “Southern Reb” on N-SSA and “Arizona Trooper” on CAS/SSS emailed me that there have been C-F blocks almost from the start, but the demand rose during the “Centennial” and several produced them. 

As of February 2020, it seems that only Dixie, Lodgewood and S & S have them in stock.

[Montezuma Johnny]

Kevin,  regarding my post of Sept 6, 2019, on my center-fire 1864 Spencer in 56-56, with photos, do you have any further thoughts of when this might have been made and where it might fit into your history of center-fire conversions?

Thanks, Montezuma Johnny

[Two Flints]

Here is the link to the thread by Montezuma Johnny.

https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=62987.msg746545#msg746545

Two Flints

[Advertising]

[El Supremo]

Hello, Montezuma Johnny:

Thanks for asking. And thanks, Two Flints for the link.
Sorry, I cannot authoritatively date that conversion upper block.  But...

All the photo's I have seen of recent, 1970's-to-date commercial center-fire blocks show marks or lettering, with the possible exceptions of "The Hussar's", a reenactor of the early 1970's and Blair's two prototypes.  The N-SSA's Small Arms Committee ("SAC") listing includes others with required identifying marks. 

Those in original Spencers like yours shown on our SSS Forum look old, have a patina somewhat matching the rest of the parts, maybe file marks, and "fat" firing pin tips, unlike modern ones with smaller diameter firing pin tips. 

My guess on yours, based on patina and the robust firing pin tip, is that yours is old. 
I think it would be difficult for someone to say your block is not old.

Perhaps Herbert or Arizona Trooper, who have seen lots of originals can comment. 
You might send photo's to antique CIvil War era arms dealers for their opinions.
I would try Horse Soldier in Gettysburg, Lodgewood in WI and others noted on our Forum.

All the best,
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny