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Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Spencer Shooting Society => Topic started by: ndnchf on August 03, 2021, 01:53:30 PM

Title: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: ndnchf on August 03, 2021, 01:53:30 PM
FWIW - I have a M1871 Springfield Spencer that is nominally chambered in .56-50, but it actually takes a .50-45 length cartridge. I put a centerfire block in it and shoot .50-45.  Not the same as a .50-70, but a bit more powerful and could be suitable for a bison at close range.  Here are the two rounds side by side.
Title: Re: Re: *** Photos Posted *** Spencer Buffalo Rifle
Post by: El Supremo on August 04, 2021, 05:42:58 AM
Hello, Ndnchief:

Thanks fot the photo of the two ctg's.
Fascinating length difference.
Does the longer one cycle from magazine into the chamber, please?
Thanks.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny
Title: Re: Re: *** Photos Posted *** Spencer Buffalo Rifle
Post by: ndnchf on August 04, 2021, 06:31:51 AM
Hello, Ndnchief:

Thanks fot the photo of the two ctg's.
Fascinating length difference.
Does the longer one cycle from magazine into the chamber, please?
Thanks.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

Yes, the 50-45s cycle fine. The 56-50s will not cycle in it.  Here is a video I made about it with a shooting demo.

https://youtu.be/t4iXhZvBPZs
Title: Re: Re: *** Photos Posted *** Spencer Buffalo Rifle
Post by: ndnchf on August 04, 2021, 06:36:05 AM
I have not done a chamber cast. The rifle bore is 52 cal. It is still a rimfire.

You really need to slug the bore to find the actual bore and groove diameter.  Then you'll know what you are dealing with.  Its a great rifle, I hope you will get it shooting!
Title: Re: Re: *** Photos Posted *** Spencer Buffalo Rifle
Post by: El Supremo on August 04, 2021, 01:39:35 PM
Thanks, Ndnchief:

Viewed your video before, but did not know of the longer ctg.

I recall reading that one significsnt limitition of the 1860 and 1865 Spencer's was that ctg's longer than 56-50 would not cycle.  Your work proves otherwise!

What are the OAL's of the case and longer ctg, please?

Since a shorter 56-50 will not cycle, what is the mechanical change that enables the longer round to fully cycle, please?

Many thanks.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny
Title: Re: Re: *** Photos Posted *** Spencer Buffalo Rifle
Post by: ndnchf on August 04, 2021, 01:57:40 PM
Thanks, Ndnchief:

Viewed your video before, but did not know of the longer ctg.

I recall reading that one significsnt limitition of the 1860 and 1865 Spencer's was that ctg's longer than 56-50 would not cycle.  Your work proves otherwise!

What are the OAL's of the case and longer ctg, please?

Since a shorter 56-50 will not cycle, what is the mechanical change that enables the longer round to fully cycle, please?

Many thanks.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

-case length is 1.355"
-O/A length with the Rapine 350 bullet is 1.683.
-Mechanical difference - I'm really not sure, I see no obvious differences. But it may have to do with the bullet's ogive shape -and flat nose.

-It shoots particularly well with 45gr of Goex 2F when my old eyes can see the sights. I've tried Swiss and Old Eynsford, but it likes plain old Goex.


Title: Re: Re: *** Photos Posted *** Spencer Buffalo Rifle
Post by: ndnchf on August 05, 2021, 04:48:33 AM
Sorry about the thread drift. I do want to hear more about the OP's buffalo rifle. El Supremo - PM me if you have any more questions.
Title: Re: Re: *** Photos Posted *** Spencer Buffalo Rifle
Post by: El Supremo on August 06, 2021, 05:37:38 PM
Hello, Ndnchief:
Please check your PM's. Smiles and thanks.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny
Title: Re: Re: *** Photos Posted *** Spencer Buffalo Rifle
Post by: El Supremo on August 06, 2021, 07:50:59 PM
Tx, Nfnchief:
Your previous posts about your unaltered, long chambered 1871 answer my questions. 
Amazing and helpful info.
Smiles,
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: Blair on August 08, 2021, 12:42:45 PM
Thanks to Two Flints who created this thread.  I am glad to see this is now it's own thread.
 
ndnchf,

If you are interested (or anyone else for that matter), I believe I know what it would take to modify various parts of the block system to allow for a longer cartridge to run through a Spencer breach block.
With a new bbl & chamber one could not get the original 56-50 or 52 ammo to cycle with these changes.

My best,
 Blair 
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: ndnchf on August 08, 2021, 02:52:51 PM
Thanks Blair. I'm quite happy with mine as-is. But feel free to share your thoughts. Maybe others would be interested.
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: El Supremo on August 08, 2021, 05:01:23 PM
Hello, and thanks, Two Flints, Ndnchief and Blair:

Ndnchief helped me with a PM about his three Threads:

24 AUG13: Need help with feeding problem.

31AUG13:  Shooting the Model 1871 Springfield Spencer Infantry Rifle.

21FEB18:  M 1871 Springfield Spencer chambered for .50-45 Cadet?

Those revealing Threads ADD important details, including the longer chamber, longer case and round, AND that Ndnchief's original, unaltered 1871 cycles the longer, but not the standard 56-50.

Marcot's 2nd Edition includes, as best I can find, only a passing comment:

On page 158, he recounts design limitations, but includes that the action will cycle ctg's up to 2" long. That's a lot longer than the usual 56-50 and the 1.683" round of Ndnchief's 1871. Marcot does not say what allows up to a 2" ctg.

This 2" aspect makes me wonder if the Spencer design was not taken to its maximum potential. I recall that during the CW, there were maximum case diameter and length limitations due to lack of case drawing skills even for the Federal side.  By 1871, perhaps that had been solved, but the Ord. Dep't. wanted a round over 2"?

Rocky Mountain Ctg, per Cheri Outland, has a 56-56 "Special" headstamped case, not on the usual list, that is a close OAL to Ndnchief's.  Could be someone went down the 56-45 Cadet path several years ago.  I use that case with its greater capacity in non-Spencer rifle. 

At this point, I am hoping that someone can please share useful details on what differences are in the 1871 that cycles the longer ctg.  Larry Romano said he has no clue. My suspicion is that different dimensions or separations of the projections on the lower block are involved. 

Perhaps Herbert, Arizona Trooper or N-SSA Spencer wizards will please enlighten us?

Again, I am most grateful for everyone's work.  Smiles and respect.

El Supremo/Kevin Tinny




Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: ndnchf on August 08, 2021, 07:16:32 PM
It is an interesting question. I don't currently have a normal Spencer to compare it with. But I'd be glad to measure parts of mine, just tell me exactly what is needed.
Steve
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: El Supremo on August 08, 2021, 08:59:56 PM
Thanks, Ndnchief/Steve:

Perhaps Blair can describe what he suspects. 
He's whittled on a Spencer or two.

In the meantime, perhaps you could take and share a close-up photo of your lower block with a scale laying along its top so the front cam/hump and rear "hook" are visible. 
That might give him some clues.

Thanks so much for your extra efforts.  Smiles.

El Supremo/Kevin Tinny
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: ndnchf on August 09, 2021, 05:52:46 AM
When I first got this rifle and began cartridge development, I did not have an original cartridge. I made mine from 50-70 and several different bullets. But none were pointed like the original's bullet. I now have one original cartridge. I just loaded it in the magazine and it cycled fine. But without several more behind it, I cant tell what difference it makes. But this could all come down to the bullet's pointyness and ogive shape.

Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: Blair on August 09, 2021, 06:46:19 AM
I am glad we got this thing going.

Here is what I suspect,,,
Longer cartridges can be set up for use in a normal Spencer based on the location of the 'cartridge stop' on the front lower section of the breach block.
 The cartridge stop keeps the cartridge from cycling right at the point where the next round in line can be eased back into the mag tube as the block is being closed. The upper breach will he pick up the back o the cartridge and chamber it.
 If the 'stop' is modified to allow the cartridge inter the breach too deep, the next round would bind up action with normal Spencer ammo. If all the ammo were longer this would not happen. Here is where a new chamber and/or barrel would come into play. This is what I believe Springfield did using the 50-45 Cadet barrels.
I hope this helps?
My best,
 Blair
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: ndnchf on August 09, 2021, 07:08:17 AM
Does this look different than normal?

Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: El Supremo on August 09, 2021, 07:12:01 AM
Tx, Ndnchief:

Nice photo and info on cycling.

I have tried cycling rounds with different ogives, including a straight cone from case mouth to a .375" meplat with no cycling effort changes.  Am so puzzled about which cycling factors matter(that can be turned on and off). 

The usual OAL and harder 18Bhn alloy bullets with and without a bit of grease on ogive helped a lot. 
All of my 56-50's now cycle fine, but with cycling "effort" variations that range between effortless to a bit balky.

Blair just reminded me, so here's another bit:
I found a ctg feed guide spring with a shorter than normal leaf in one of my Spencers that was quite stiffly cycling rounds that cycled fine in other Spencers!
A replacement with correct leaf length made cycling normal.
So, I suspect that the feed guide's pressure also matters.
FWIW: There are wide variations in the tempers of CW era flat and "V" springs. 
These variations can change trigger pull weights a LOT.

I have reduced the typical "martial" trigger pull weights of 12# or more to between 3.5# and 5# by substituting a softer, more uniform temper Shiloh Sharps mainspring and placing a flat 1/8" by 1/4" .011" - .015" shim under the mainspring screw head.

Accuracy is fine with a casefull of 3Fg, no wad and Win large RIFLE primer.  SPG lube. My bullet is a 315gr, single lube groove Romano sized .0005" over groove OD. ACCURATE BULLET MOLDS has a close copy.   I BALLISTIC RECREATIONS salt bath anneal after each use and do not loose either RMC or cut dn Starline 50-70 cases to splits with CH4D dies.  No mouth reaming needed on the Starlines!
Slightest crimp, but bullets are tight.

Spencers are, by far, my favorite.  So many interesting aspects and history. 

Am grateful for Two Flints and our SSS members. 

One more favor, please:
Can you please attach another photo taken from alongside like the first one, but with a bit of an angle that SHOWS the projections on the upper surface of the lower block?  Many thanks.

Revised to add ctg feed guide spring tension factor. Jkt.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: ndnchf on August 09, 2021, 07:33:45 AM
Does this help?
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: El Supremo on August 09, 2021, 07:55:10 AM
Yes, Ndnchief:

Lots better.  Thanks.
Am chatting w Blair, so he may post later this AM.

He shared stuff about the ctg feed guide SPRING, and possible profile differences between the Spencer and Burnside versions that requires me to revise my prior post. Will do that now.

Kevin
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: Blair on August 09, 2021, 08:12:06 AM
ndnchf,

Thanks. It does look a little different, but I can't be sure just where. I'll have to pull out my cartridge stop to check.
The Sporting rifle I built up is off of a vary late model Burnside made Spencer. I have found some slight differences in the Burnside and Spencer made guns. Perhaps someone with an original made Spence could chime in here to help? I'll be back in touch.
My best,
 Blair
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: Blair on August 09, 2021, 02:26:59 PM
Hi all,
 
  I must have found a very good place to hide away my Spencer parts for safe keeping., but I will keep looking.
While I did make some major changes to the cartridge stop on my conversion, I did not change the placement location of the upright portion of the cartridge stop. I kept that to the original OVA cartridge placement on the original cartridge stop.
I will measure that and get back to you.
My best,
 Blair
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: Trailrider on August 09, 2021, 03:39:32 PM
One thing to keep in mind with the centerfire conversions and even the replicas: DO NOT use pointed bullets in Spencers! Use a bullet with a flat meplat of at least .250" in diameter. Using a pointed bullet like the originals (which could be used with the rimfire rounds, could result in a magazine explosion, which could ruin your whole day!  :o
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: Blair on August 10, 2021, 09:15:58 AM
ndmchf,

 In your photo (I believe post #16) the scale looks like it measures right at 19/32 ".
My cartridge stop measures .660 with calipers. (21/32" =.656)
It would seem as though your cartridge stop has been reduced in length. However, is this due to the differences between a Burnside made and a Spencer made firearm? I guess we wont know until someone can take measurements off of a unaltered '65 model Spencer for comparison.
My best,
 Blair
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: ndnchf on August 10, 2021, 09:49:01 AM
Blair - its odd shape makes it rather hard to measure and photograph at the same time. But I get about .641".

Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: ndnchf on August 24, 2021, 10:08:51 AM
I learned something new today. I have these two .56-56 Spencer cartidges. One clearly has a longer and heavier bullet. I did a little online research and read that the heavy bullet version was made for the infantry and navy rifles and the 1862 Joslyn carbine, while the lighter bullet cartridge was made for the carbines. I assume they could be and were used interchangably.  I know Spencers can be finicky about cartridge length, so I wonder how well both worked in the same gun. While not the same as the longer .56-50 chamber in the M871 rifle, it does relate to Spencers handling longer cartridges.
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: El Supremo on August 24, 2021, 01:26:10 PM
Thanks, Steve:
I think you are onto something. 

As documented in Dutcher's "BALLARD" book, and by Tony Beck, Arizona Trooper, there were even 56-56 rounds with larger OD bullets specifically for "Ballard" CW era rifles with oversized bores! 
I recall Tony sharing that those larger rounds had a label indicating they were for use in Dwight, Chapin ... "Ballard's".

Blair has pointed out the odd dimensions in Marcot's chart, possibly from measuring at the crimp bulge.  He and I have been discussing OAL to understand WHY there are differences in the lengths of lower block hooks in later models of CW and post CW era Spencers. 

Subject to further information, it appears that the lengths of the "hook" on the front of the lower block range between .521" for early original 1860's and .660" for later ones, including Burnside Spencer's.  That .140" is a lot.  Two Burnside Spencer's and one Spencer rifle in the 23,000 range are reported by their owners to be nominally .640" - .660" give or take angles during measurement.  I am waiting for a couple other measurements.

Blair and I are guessing that three factors are involved to enable easy cycling of varying OAL rounds:
The length of the "hook" in the lower block.
The distance the magazine tube follower extends the last round from the magazine tube.
The temper and top leaf profile of the cartridge guide "V" spring.

With correct OAL ctg's, swapping ctg feed guide springs can resolve cycling smoothness issues.

Perhaps rounds made later during the war were less uniform in OAL?

It is interesting to me that Larry Romano copied the hook and cam dimensions from a high number 1860, BUT tests with cycling dummy rounds that VARY in OAL between 1.400" and 1.600", to be sure variations will cycle.  That's .200" OAL range.  He's done this with me watching!  Rounds with flat meplats with OAL'S at 1.57" cycle well in his.  He did not say, but my guess is he includes some nearer 1.400" to be sure any with loose bullets that might have ended up shorter during cycling will work.

Not sure if you posted or emailed me that NOW your M1871 will cycle BOTH the 56-56 with normal OAL, AND the longer 50-45 ctg's, please?  If so, maybe your longer hook is why.

Modified to include the 3rd factor, ctg feed guide spring. Sorry.

Thanks,
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: ndnchf on August 24, 2021, 01:35:13 PM
I only have one original .56-50 cartridge. I was able to cycle and chamber it in my M1871.  But without another behind it in the magazine, I don't know if this means anything or not.
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: El Supremo on August 24, 2021, 02:19:19 PM
Tx, Ndnchief:

I think your longer hook might be the thing that helps with the OAL's of your two ctg's being around .125" different.

Just learned my friend does not have any fired 56-56 RF cases. Sorry.
Smiles,
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: ndnchf on August 24, 2021, 03:10:24 PM
Ok, thanks for checking.

Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: DJ on August 24, 2021, 09:42:39 PM
I don't know if this will help, but I measured the cartridge stops on a few rifles using a caliper and with the following results:

1860 Rifle in 3XXX range:  .666
1860 Rifle in 23XXX range:  .6465
1865 Rifle in XXX range:  .637 (this one is a little worn)
1871 Rifle (Burnside) in 25XXX range:  .6445

--DJ
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: El Supremo on August 25, 2021, 05:08:55 AM
Hello, DJ:

MANY thanks for the effort and helpful info.

Your 23XXX dimension is very close to 22502's of between .650" and .660", which rifle was part of the "Mass Militia group".

Other reported hook length measurements have been taken from the front, uppermost edge of the lower block to the top, rear edge of the hook.  Even careful and seemingly consistent placement of the jaws can involve a little wiggling and produce variation.  I do five, drop high and low and use the average of middle three.

Smiles,
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny



Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: ndnchf on August 25, 2021, 11:46:42 AM
Here is another tidbit, FWIW.  My Remington split breech carbine is chambered for the .56-50 too. I wondered how it would handle a .50-45 length cartridge. To my surprise, it swallowed it no problem! Using a caliper I then measured the chamber depth. It was 1.450". It makes me wonder if the Ordnance department specified the longer chamber in the contract. Hmmmm.
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: ndnchf on September 02, 2021, 03:46:40 PM
Blair most graciously sent me seven original C.D. Leet .56-50 cartridges to both test the cycling in the M1871 Springfield Spencer and to reload. Thank you Blair!

I immediately loaded four into the magazine and tried to cycle it. No-go. The first cartridge came out as far as you see in the photo, but the action would not close. I tried this a couple times with different cartridges in the lead - same result. Then I loaded a sigle round in the magazine and it cycled fine. I did this several times and it worked fine. But if I added one or more cartridges behind the first, the action would lock up again, just like before. So it appears the 2nd cartridge is not in the correct position, preventing the action from closing.
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: ndnchf on September 18, 2021, 03:19:10 PM
For future reference, I made a chamber cast of the model 1871. When Springfield Armory converted m1865 Burnside carbines to these rifles, they used model 1868 trapdoor barrels. Here are the dimensions and a view of the chamber. Despite the pitting, it shoots very well.
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: Niederlander on September 18, 2021, 09:49:07 PM
This is sort of off topic, but I've been interested in your efforts to reload original rimfire cartridges.  I know the guy who did at least some of the testing on cartridge cases and bullets found at the Little Bighorn battlefield to see if they could be matched to specific rifles.  I think he said about one out of five Henry or Spencer cartridges would go off.  It made the testing somewhat more difficult than what he was used to.
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: ndnchf on September 19, 2021, 05:01:35 AM
That is an interesting comment. I have reloaded both a .56-50 and a .56-52 original cartridge. I tried to fire each in this rifle, but nether would go off. The Spencer firing pin is blunt and only catches the very outer edge of the rim. I tried each a couple times. You can see in the photo that the rim was hit hard and well mashed. I then put each cartridge in my Remington split breech carbine and they fired on the first attempt both times. The Remington has a more pointed firing pin which hits a little more inward. It seems maybe Remington took a lesson from the Spencer and designed their firing pin for improved reliability.



Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: Blair on September 27, 2021, 12:56:41 PM
ndnchf,

 Just wanted to let you know that both Kevin and I are on the lookout for more rimfire Spencer ammo for you to try out with your reloading and test shooting.
 I was looking at your photos (post # 36?) of the rim fire indentation on your '71 Springfield/Spencer trial shot. I am still thinking, from what I can see in the photo, that there maybe something not quite right with your rim fire firing pin in your '71. It almost looks like the firing pin is not being crushed quite enough against the other side enough to set off the primer compound?
 This could be because the gun was "dry fired" a lot. One of two things could have happened.
#1. damaging the face of the firing pin.
#2. causing damage to the "detent" set up in the breach end of the barrel.
This repeated hammering/peening may also deepen the detent, usually pushing some of that displaced metal inward to the chamber. I have seen this in many original Spencer's. (Your photo shows slight shine on the body of the cartridge case just below that rim fire dent. This might be from that peening, that has been lightly removed with fine curved files called "riflers"?)
 You might try finding a good TIG welder that can add a bit of metal to the face of you firing pin. You have lost nothing by giving it a try. Just a suggestion on my part.
 My best,
 Blair   
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: ndnchf on September 27, 2021, 01:23:23 PM
Blair - you may be right.  I'll take a close look at the firing pin and chamber tonight.

I plan to reload at least two more of the cartridges you sent, for a total of at least three to shoot.  That will give me a better average velocity and maybe a group too  :)  I have to admit to being distracted recently loading .41 rimfire short for my derringers and .25 Stevens for a little #4 rolling block I picked up.  Too many projects, not enough time!

Steve
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: ndnchf on September 27, 2021, 04:17:09 PM
Blair,

The firing pin tip looks ok, but the chamber edge has taken a beating from it.
Title: Re: M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges
Post by: Blair on September 28, 2021, 05:55:06 AM
ndnchf,

 The welding on the firing pin face would be he easy fix to get a little more reach out of the firing pin. And can always be removed if you wish.
 As for the chamber edge, you may want to try to clean that up a little better even with shooting it with the center fire breach block.
My best,
 Blair