Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => NCOWS => Topic started by: Major 2 on February 06, 2021, 02:44:53 AM
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Dakota Ike and I were discussing the thread "We need new blood in NCOWS to keep it going "
That the Ammo & reloading component shortage along with Pandemic travel & social distancing restrictions , have and will
shape the future "if any" to WAS .
The economy during the present time, and I suspect reaching quite sometime beyond the current state precludes any new growth.
NCOWS is wise to have 2 gun classes , thus reducing the ammo/component needs.
The vaccine is a ray of hope, for many of us already in the hobby....
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Definitely not many participating in W.A.S. that are not reloading their own ammo. It was always cost prohibitive to shoot factory ammo, and right now the cost would be way higher, IF you could find any. Same problem with reloading components right now, prices through the roof, or unobtainium. NCOWS has always been more about historical accuracy, and the Two Gun Class or Working Cowboy certainly follows that grain, now along with conserving valuable ammunition! Probably be a very popular class this season, we may even need to bring out the .22s as previously mentioned. In the end it's about getting together with friends in the outdoors and sharing a few laughs.
B.N.Scotty
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Definitely not many participating in W.A.S. that are not reloading their own ammo. It was always cost prohibitive to shoot factory ammo, and right now the cost would be way higher, IF you could find any. Same problem with reloading components right now, prices through the roof, or unobtainium. NCOWS has always been more about historical accuracy, and the Two Gun Class or Working Cowboy certainly follows that grain, now along with conserving valuable ammunition! Probably be a very popular class this season, we may even need to bring out the .22s as previously mentioned. In the end it's about getting together with friends in the outdoors and sharing a few laughs.
B.N.Scotty
Agree. I bought a pistol that qualifies as a pocket pistol. Kind of thought I would be doing working cowboy/pocket pistol this year, but now, maybe not.
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Definitely not many participating in W.A.S. that are not reloading their own ammo. It was always cost prohibitive to shoot factory ammo, and right now the cost would be way higher, IF you could find any. Same problem with reloading components right now, prices through the roof, or unobtainium. NCOWS has always been more about historical accuracy, and the Two Gun Class or Working Cowboy certainly follows that grain, now along with conserving valuable ammunition! Probably be a very popular class this season, we may even need to bring out the .22s as previously mentioned. In the end it's about getting together with friends in the outdoors and sharing a few laughs.
B.N.Scotty
Exactly ... I certainly entertain the use of 22's in this current situation . (even going forward)
Entry level Heritage Arms or Ruger Wrangler would not break the bank
Both are about equal the price of 3 - 50 round boxes of factory 44 -45 ammo....
* there are other choices one might already have
So...what do the members say ?
Open the use of 22 short, long & long Rifle for pistol use ( obviously no auto loaders )
Reducing costs , and allowing the conservation of reloading components.
* Uberti has a 22 Cattleman & EMF 1873 Maverick (Pietta) in 22, Ruger Single Six & Bearcat
even Kirst conversions kits for Colt & Remington
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What is the availability of .22 ammo?
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.22 is pretty scarce these days as well, but lots of folks have some stacks of that at home already. And hey, .22 can have the bullets pulled and be reloaded with black powder! ;D
I hope to make it up to Berger Sharpshooters before too terrible long, and if I'm driving that far I'm shooting 4 guns! :) But yeah, having the 2 and 3 gun categories helps a lot of folks. The WAS match I shot today, they allowed people to just shoot one revolver, plus allowed .22's (nobody on my posse did either). It was a 5 stage match, and one of the stages is short and has no rifle, plus there were only 2 shotgun on each stage (the hammered shotgun guys didn't ever have to cock them on the clock). So the match was 40 rifle, 50 pistol, 10 shotgun. Still plenty of fun.
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Is the 22LR of today the same dimension as in the S&W #1 from the Civil War Era? I Never thought about pulling bullets and reloading with Black, intriguing. However I don't have a S&W #1.
B.N.Scotty
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@ ira scott: I fear that if You aquire an 150 years old .22-revolver and manage to load it with .22 Long Rifle smokeless ammo, You will be known as "AKA Broken Gun Scotty"...
The old revolvers were made for .22 Short loaded with blackpowder.
Later came the .22 Long, and finally the .22 Long Rifle.
I would be extremely hesitant to fire any caselength of modern smokeless .22-ammo in an old handgun.
As far as swopping out the smokeless powder for blackpowder, there's the problem of properly crimping the bullets back in the case...
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BNS, I have an original Sharps 4 barrel derringer that shoots only 22 short
I also have a Winchester 1890 that only shot 22 short until it was converted.
22 short was THE 22 ammo at first, 73 Winchesters were chambered in 22 short.
LOL, I have wondered how it had the power to make it down a 30'' barrel.
BTB
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@ ira scott: I fear that if You aquire an 150 years old .22-revolver and manage to load it with .22 Long Rifle smokeless ammo, You will be known as "AKA Broken Gun Scotty"...
The old revolvers were made for .22 Short loaded with blackpowder.
Later came the .22 Long, and finally the .22 Long Rifle.
I would be extremely hesitant to fire any caselength of modern smokeless .22-ammo in an old handgun.
As far as swopping out the smokeless powder for blackpowder, there's the problem of properly crimping the bullets back in the case...
I WAS NOT considering that. I shoot a few 100 year+ guns, and show the old girls the respect they deserve. I'm sure Lee would make you a Factory Crimp Die for .22 BP Shorts if you paid them enough. (JOKING)
B.N.Scotty
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What is the availability of .22 ammo?
I'm thinking, if you had a 22 or several ( most do ) you more than likely stocked up after the last ( recent ) 22 shortage of two years ago or so :-\
If you did not or you can't find some now, then the 22 substitute concept is moot and won't benefit in your case.
The suggestions are to shoot 22's you may have , in loo of Ammo or reloading components you don't have or need to conserve.
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The trick with reloading .22 rimfire is getting primer compound in the rim.
Slim
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I am thinking of going back to cap and ball. I have lots of loose powder, lead and caps. I also have 10+ cap pistols and only 2 cartridge pistols and one of them can convert back to cap with change of cylinder. I will be coordinating 2 shoots for KVC this year, I am thinking of a single pistol and rifle only and will not have reloads, I think the key is to making them more interesting while maybe using less ammo. I have been to 1 SASS match and countless NCOWS and in my limited experience had NCOWs with way more interesting stages. It sets the hook
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There are ancient fables in the NCOWS community of KVC scenarios that involved yodeling! Interesting, IDK.
B.N.Scotty
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The trick with reloading .22 rimfire is getting primer compound in the rim.
Hey Slim! If someone actually wanted to go to the trouble of reloading .22 RF, there are kits available. I just glanced at it, I'm not sure if it came with priming compound or instructions to concoct your own. The discussion here was pulling bullets and reloading with B.P. I went to visit a buddy one day who was in his garage pulling .22 bullets, adding sand and sealing with wax. He was loading these in a crappy old single shot rifle and shooting flies in the garage. I had to laugh when the BugOSalt guns came out a couple years later, I had seen the prototype!
Stay warm Buddy! B.N.Scotty
Slim
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Would 22 CB cap be low enough pressure for my Remington Elliot?
Not advocating use in competition, safety question only. Going to pull a bullet to see if there in any powder. Primer only, no powder.
Brian
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Okla Tom and Johnson Barr regularly pull the bullet reload .22's with BP. If one comes up on the net, they can explain the process.
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So, with the talk here, should we consider having a 22 class.
Revolver and lever or pump rifle. A independent club here in
Iowa has a class called double duece, 3 22's and a shotgun.
I feel like we have to do whatever to keep people being able
to shoot. I think we should think about it and bring it before
Congress, we could drop it again if and when things get back
to normal.
BTB
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I may(quite possibly) be wrong, but I don't think it would take "an act of Congress" so to speak. As long it is not a Regional or National Shoot I think the local clubs can proceed as they see appropriate? I recall shooting with Sub-Juniors? a time or two that were using .22 RF. It was a bit of a challenge to call hits and misses at the Berger Range when the rifle targets were 30+ yards away-but you know the old saying-"if you THINK it's a miss, it's a hit", benefit of doubt to the shooter.(as it should be, this is for FUN!)
B.N.Scotty
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So, with the talk here, should we consider having a 22 class.
Revolver and lever or pump rifle. A independent club here in
Iowa has a class called double duece, 3 22's and a shotgun.
I feel like we have to do whatever to keep people being able
to shoot. I think we should think about it and bring it before
Congress, we could drop it again if and when things get back
to normal.
BTB
My point exactly
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Broken Nose hit the nail on the head.
No need to disturb the Congress, nor rewrite the Rules.
I remember one year the Executive Committee gave a special dispensation for a one time change to allow someone to shoot special conditions at the National without amending the Constitution . . .
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There are ancient fables in the NCOWS community of KVC scenarios that involved yodeling! Interesting, IDK.
B.N.Scotty
There is absolutely no yodeling at the KVC matches. (That was your friend River City John's contribution to the National Match in Kentucky.)
We have had:
Talent contests (a disaster IMO)
Spelling bees ( ::) )
Movie Trivia tests
Old West History Tests
But mostly we just have challenging Shooting stages.
Books
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Geez!
ONE lousy stage with a little colorful yodeling and you're branded for life as a ne'er-do-well!
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There was a time Johnson County Rangers shot 22 during the June monthly match to conserve primers since it was right after the Nationals. We stopped around 8 years ago once getting primers was no longer an issue.
We have discussed that we may have to allow that again to give shooters some options depending on how long this shortage lasts.
Surely we will make it through this shortage just like ones in the past we just may have to get creative and lower round counts, shoot 22, or whatever it takes.
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I have never been a hoarder per se, but I am an avid cap and ball shooter. A few years back, family and friends would regularly gift me with gift cards to cabelas and or bass pro. Every time I got one, I would get some 777 (they had quit selling real black powder), caps and lead. Realized I am good for supplies in the cap and ball arena. Rolled 70 paper cartridges this weekend and would like to get up to 200-250 for a start. I had moved over to shooting 45 colt as it is quicker, since I only have ~100 large pistol primers, I am thinking cap and ball it is.
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There is absolutely no yodeling at the KVC matches. (That was your friend River City John's contribution to the National Match in Kentucky.)
We have had:
Talent contests (a disaster IMO)
Spelling bees ( ::) )
Movie Trivia tests
Old West History
But mostly we just have challenging Shooting stages.
Books
Thanks for clearing that up Books, I KNEW that RCJ was involved!
Why were the talent contests a disaster, because there was none?
B.N.Scotty
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I can spell Bee, but I never saw a bee that could spell ;D
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THE LEGEND OF "YODELING EUSTIS" AND HIS FRONTIER JUSTICE
"There is a story told along the cattle trails of a cowboy whose honesty, steadfastness and skill when riding herd made him the darling of every Trail Boss. A cattle drive was guaranteed profitable if they could hire on this drover. There were fewer beef lost along the journey, higher prices than anticipated offered at trail's end, . . .why even Cookie's grub seemed to improve!
He was known as 'Yodeling Eustis'. He claimed the secret of his success, and hence his moniker, was that his yodeling held a powerful spell over man and beast.
Now our story takes place at the lazy end of summer two years after the locusts, but several years before the great blizzard. It was the year of that devil twister, if you'll remember.
We find our Hero enjoying some well-earned entertainments at the railhead town after the end of another cattle drive. And these entertainments included whisky, a fine cigar, and a turn at the gaming tables. But unbeknownst to our Friend he had fallen into a crooked game run by an impecunious, vile, most foul. . . .Well!, if you knew half of what I've heard, the less said the better.
This rake and his cronies thought they had stumbled on easy pickings, and grew smug and discourteous because they believed they would easily cheat our Innocent out of his entire poke.
But our Pride 'n' Joy was no one's fool, and soon after discovering their deceit he rose to his feet to call their bet. He drew iron and looked them square in the eye.
And then he began to yodel."
( No shotgun.)
Set up the stage with the targets at different ranges, enough to offer increasing degrees of difficulty, from easy to "you gotta be kiddin'!" Assign an increasing point value as they go up in difficulty.
Then play the stage as if it was a hand of poker. NO TIMER USED. Each shooter plays against the other members of their posse. THERE ARE NO MISSES, and each target must be hit ONCE in ascending order. Once a shooter misses, or shoots a target out of order, they're out of the game for that stage. Draw cards to determine the first shooter. Each shooter builds their point score starting with the first target. When they reach a point level where they're comfortable it's going to be hard to best, they can stand pat and let the next shooter have their turn. If a subsequent shooter raises the best score, those who have not been eliminated can try to beat that new score by starting on the next target from the one where they had left off.
There could be a lot of flexibility when setting target arrangement and to assign which firearm to be used when engaging groups of targets.
Here's the 'wild card'. All shooters must yodel while engaging their targets.
And the scoring?
It's winner takes all, so the winner has their final point score REMOVED from their overall match time as a bonus. All other posse members have the winning score ADDED to their overall time.
So there is a real incentive to not miss.
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The local club I am part of has a class labeled "Indian Fighter". Black Powder only, one or two pistols, can be cap and ball or cartridge loaded with bp. Single shot cartridge rifle, bp cartridges. Single or double barrel shotgun, bp loads, NCOWS leadshot sizes. Not a heavily contested class. If you only shoot one pistol, you shoot five targets. Single shot rifle, five targets. Shotgun, two targets. Per each stage. You will see variation in the number of guns. I typically only carry my SAA and 1873 Trapdoor. I would say it's a catchall bp class that is fun to shoot. I like it because I can shoot and not burn up a boatload of ammo.
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I'm not sure shooting BP will be that much of a help right now. I had thought it would be: however, after getting my 45-70 reloaded and preparing to reload my 50-70 and realizing that I might not have enough on hand for the 50-70's, I got on Power Inc.'s web site and found that they were sold out too. (at least they were sold out of Goex and OE FF)
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I'm not sure shooting BP will be that much of a help right now. I had thought it would be: however, after getting my 45-70 reloaded and preparing to reload my 50-70 and realizing that I might not have enough on hand for the 50-70's, I got on Power Inc.'s web site and found that they were sold out too. (at least they were sold out of Goex and OE FF)
You might check Graf & Sons for some BP. I just got several more pounds from them, I got Graf's brand this time. But their shipping is really delayed since covid started, was about 3 weeks between ordering and delivery. But I haven't checked again, they may be sold out of everything by now.
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Pony, a couple smart fellers like you and the General should be able to MAKE blackpowder, right?
B.N.Scotty
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returning to the subject
I was thinking two fold...the present shooter that is caught short on components AND the possible new shooter , who might attend, but has no guns ( but might have a Ruger Single Six or old High Standard 22 or H&R )
no reloading equipment or ammo source during this current blight.
So he is outside looking in....
But just maybe a Ruger Wrangler @ $200 would not be a deal breaker and 22 Cal. is still reasonable & available.
Winchester Super-X Super Speed .22LR is just 3 cents each and Browning just under 4 cents each
Winchester Super-X Super Speed .22LR Ammunition 40 Grain Copper Plated LRN 1300 fps | Cheaper Than Dirt
or Browning 22LR Performance Rimfire 1255 fps 40 gr Black Oxide RN 400 per box (lowestammo.com)
apparently scalpers are selling primers at 30 + cents apiece !!!!
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Well, if no one is paying $0.30 a piece, they would not be selling them for that. If we pay them no heed, the prices will come down. It is like feeding trolls on the web. Scared individuals are sure everything is going to be stripped away, so they buy anything. During the last panic, I knew a few people who were buying cartridges for which they had no gun. Their off the wall thinking was trade goods when the world collapsed, well it kind of did and toilet paper was the currency du jour.
I figure I will share with new shooters and friends if they need it because I like it when we all have fun. I will deal with running out of ammo when it happens.
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you need only to look here
https://www.gunbroker.com/All/search?Keywords=primers&PageSize=24&Sort=13&View=1&PageIndex=1
Scalpers and the "Scared individuals" feeding the frenzy ::)
the concept was merely a brain cramp .... back to yodeling ;D
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7000+ auctions tells you all you need to know... artifical inflation! Nearly 800 auctions for small pistol primers.
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Major 2, to me those listings are confusing. How many individual boxes of a hundred primers are you actually getting for that price? Or are they all per brick of 1,000?
If they're $300.00 FOR FIVE BOXES OF A HUNDRED, or half-a-brick, then shame on them indeed!
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Major 2, to me those listings are confusing. How many individual boxes of a hundred primers are you actually getting for that price? Or are they all per brick of 1,000?
If they're $300.00 FOR FIVE BOXES OF A HUNDRED, or half-a-brick, then shame on them indeed!
The prices are all over the place. On top of this, I keep seeing reposts of the gun control wish list bill that was proposed last year. That I believe has spooked more than a few people. This has even gotten BP shooters spooked.
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Reading through this discussion brings up several points. First, the Heritage, Wrangler, Stallion, Model P Jr, Bearcat are not approved weapons. The small frame single actions are not allowed. At least not yet. We have been looking for documentation that the Spanish small frames existed before 1900. While logic indicates they did based on when the Belgian DA versions were available, we have not found anything definitive we can use to get that restriction off the Unapproved List. If one of you knows of documentation, submit it to me and I’ll continue to work this.
Secondly, our by-laws do in fact state that every NCOWS match must follow all the rules. However, I also no that few club matches do so. And it is not for me to act on that. At a Regional or National level, yes. I tend to leave it to the local judges on what they will allow at club matches. The idea is to have fun. So if your club wants to allow the small frame guns and 22 RF at club matches, no problem in my mind.
22RF with black powder is a fairly simple process. First, I have a mould for a 22 heel-base bullet. I also bought a kit for reloading 22s. It comes with the compounds and instructions for repriming. It is a pain but can be done. It works. It also comes with a tool that doubles as a 22 bullet mould and crimping cavity. It works best with 22 LR, but with practice, 22 L and 22 S can be done.
My process for BP 22s is simple. I pull the bullets from 22 ammo and chuck them in my melting pot, as they come out deformed and can’t be reused. I have billets cast in the mould I got from Old West Bullet Moulds and use them. Smokeless powder is disposed of and cases refilled with FFFg or FFFFg ( I use FFFFg in 22 short). Press one of my hand casts into the case neck and crimp with the tool I mentioned. I wipe a bit of SPG on the bullet grooves and drop them in the box. Ready to use.
Here is a link to the kit.
http://22lrreloader.com/design-details/
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As I had never researched any of this, I did not know that the bullets would deform when pulling them, though it makes sense. But I wonder if some headscratching might come up with a tool that could pull them without damage? Impact puller modified for .22??
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As I had never researched any of this, I did not know that the bullets would deform when pulling them, though it makes sense. But I wonder if some headscratching might come up with a tool that could pull them without damage? Impact puller modified for .22??
I am not sure I would want to try an impact (kinetic) bullet puller on any rimfire cartridge. They work by trapping the front of the rim in a metal collet to stop the case from slamming forward when you strike. Striking the rim from the front would likely be as dangerous as striking it from the rear.
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Well, the Darwin awards for 2021 remain to be determined. ;D
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Bryan, would you tell us how you pull them SAFELY, if you're deforming
them I assume a vice-grip or something. For safety for everyone could
you explain your process. Thanks
BTB
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Bryan, would you tell us how you pull them SAFELY, if you're deforming
them I assume a vice-grip or something. For safety for everyone could
you explain your process. Thanks
BTB
I have a 22 RF shell holder. I put it in my press, a cartridge in the shell holder, then pop the bullet out with pliers.
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With the priming compound in the rim of the 22 cartridge, I wouldn't want to try an impact puller that holds the cartridge by the rim.
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With the priming compound in the rim of the 22 cartridge, I wouldn't want to try an impact puller that holds the cartridge by the rim.
You are in total agreement with Bryan 4 posts back!
B.N.Scotty
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The critical bullet deformation occurs when the factory bullet is pulled from factory .22 cases. The factory roll crimp cuts into the bullet heel and when the bullet is pulled, the heel is reduced in diameter too much to be reloaded. In fact it is necessary to use a case mouth expander to open the factory case mouth crimp to load and crimp fresh cast bullets.
The most amazing thing about shooting BP .22's is the impressive 'Boom' and considerably more fire and smoke than you might imagine. I use a Kirst Konvertor cylinder and barrel sleeve in my .31 '49 Pocket and .36 '62 Pocket Navy with grand results. Being partial to the 'Shooting Strange' concept, I have used the converted pistols and hand loaded .22BP rounds as my main match revolver at monthly Berger matches. Quite a sight to see and hear.
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You, and your sidekick Bryan are always "a sight to see and hear", no matter what you are shooting!
B.N.Scotty
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You, and your sidekick Bryan are always "a sight to see and hear", no matter what you are shooting!
B.N.Scotty
Especially when using my 11” Howdah 20 ga?
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I have enough loaded & components , won’t need to drop to 22. Arms /ammo, can compete this year without reloading. 400 large pistol, 1000 small pistol takes me out 2 years.
Brian
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"Especially when using my 11” Howrah 20 ga", and wearing a Kilt!
B.N.Scotty
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"Especially when using my 11” Howrah 20 ga", and wearing a Kilt!
B.N.Scotty
True, true... ;D
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Made a road trip yesterday morning, first stop Cabela's in Prarie Du Chein,
got there about 10:15. I went directly to the ammo section and they had 3
bricks of Federal small pistol primers. the guy said they had 7 when they
opened at 9. I bought 1(the limit) and a guy behind me bought 1. So they
were sold out by 11. But very happy (thrilled in these times) to get a brick
for $45. They are going for $400 on Gunbroker NUTS!!!
BTB
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Yep.... $400 + ....its larceny
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Made a road trip yesterday morning, first stop Cabela's in Prarie Du Chein,
got there about 10:15. I went directly to the ammo section and they had 3
bricks of Federal small pistol primers. the guy said they had 7 when they
opened at 9. I bought 1(the limit) and a guy behind me bought 1. So they
were sold out by 11. But very happy (thrilled in these times) to get a brick
for $45. They are going for $400 on Gunbroker NUTS!!!
BTB
$45 for a brick is good.
I'm looking for large rifle primers for my Krag.
Slim
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Made a road trip yesterday morning, first stop Cabela's in Prarie Du Chein,
got there about 10:15. I went directly to the ammo section and they had 3
bricks of Federal small pistol primers. the guy said they had 7 when they
opened at 9. I bought 1(the limit) and a guy behind me bought 1. So they
were sold out by 11. But very happy (thrilled in these times) to get a brick
for $45. They are going for $400 on Gunbroker NUTS!!!
BTB
...yeah and I hear buddies worrying that the whole gun industry is going to be shutdown. So, expect the speculators and hoarders to really go into high gear.
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Made a road trip yesterday morning, first stop Cabela's in Prarie Du Chein,
got there about 10:15. I went directly to the ammo section and they had 3
bricks of Federal small pistol primers. the guy said they had 7 when they
opened at 9. I bought 1(the limit) and a guy behind me bought 1. So they
were sold out by 11. But very happy (thrilled in these times) to get a brick
for $45. They are going for $400 on Gunbroker NUTS!!!
BTB
Nice score during these times