Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Shotguns => Topic started by: Old Henry616 on October 23, 2023, 10:55:15 AM
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I’ve read several various gun catalogues from the 1870s, 80s, and 90s, and while there are many different shotguns that are listed in them, practically all of the barrel lengths were either 28 or 30 inches. There were not barrel length that came even close as to what one would want for a coach gun. So where did people buy coach/short-barreled shotguns?
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From my amature history studies short barreled shotguns weren't nearly as popular as Hollywood would have you believe. I've seen several pictures of possy members holding double barreled shotguns with what look to be 30" barrels, give or take a few inches.
As for a source in the late 19th Century for a so called "coach gun", I suspect any gunsmith worth his salt would be both willing and able to cut down your old hunting 10ga if you crossed his palm with enough hard cash.
YMMV,
Dave
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Not claiming anything historical. Just an “observation.” Maybe it was that those who bought from catalogs weren’t interested in short barrels. However those who were, i.e. Wells Fargo, bought special order in quantity?
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We can see from a FAQ on the actual Wells Fargo website, that the company (at a corporate level) did not purchase firearms enmass and distribute them. Rather, it was up to the local management to purchase any needed equipment locally and dispense as required.
Thus, we might see almost any model, any length shotgun actually being used, and very very few have actual verifiable provenance.
Two notable exceptions are this one
https://www.rockislandauction.com/riac-blog/wells-fargos-shotgun-messenger-hold-the-fort-aaron-ross
Used by and finally owned by Hold The Fort Aaron Ross.
And these at the Cody museum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGOTezNnsVA
Most, if not all of the so called “wells Fargo” shotguns offered on the “usual” auctions and at gunshows are
Fakes manufactured by hopeful charletons. If is has a “Wells Fargo” badge nailed onto the stock, it is absolutely a fake.
Wells Fargo has a bit on their coaches
https://www.wellsfargohistory.com/follow-the-history-of-stagecoach-no-186/
And
https://www.wellsfargohistory.com/hold-the-fort-ross-stops-a-train-robbery/
But they took down the FAQ pages :(
But thanks to the perspicacity of the interwebs we have FAQ#10 saved for posterity:
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This is from Wells Fargo's website (https://www.wellsfargo.com/about/history/faqs).
10. How do I know if the Wells Fargo markings on an antique shotgun are real?
"Wells Fargo" marked shotguns have become a problem among collectors of antique firearms. In general, each town's Well Fargo Agent bought weapons from local stores carrying whatever was available — it was not a central headquarters function. Just as with companies today, Wells Fargo's offices did not keep outdated records. Therefore, there are no comprehensive lists of Wells Fargo firearms.
Additionally, in recent years, many people have added "Wells Fargo" to actual antique weapons. All of this makes it very difficult to know whether any shotgun currently for sale was or was not used by Wells Fargo, regardless of the markings. For further information, you may check the book by James Bartz, Company Property, (the Westbound Stage, 1993), for sale at http://www.westboundstage.com.
Endsnip————-
And our prior discussion here
https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=20434.0
And here is a REAL wells fargo strongbox
https://www.wellsfargohistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/027-wells-fargo-treasure-box.jpg
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Quite some years ago, a buddy and I went to a Gun Show in Ft. Lauderdale as I recall.
Mostly, the Florida circuit shows are black guns and assorted Urban stealth kitsch.
But there are some dealers attending on occasion with cool stuff so ever so often we'd go.
One such was that Ft. Laud. show, we when on Saturday and saw the usual, amongst it all We saw a Wells Fargo sawed off.
I had read some time prior that many fakes were floating around, and I dismissed this offering as one.
Steve and I moved on, having discussed that very likelihood.
However, Steve was intrigued, and he returned on Sunday to find the shotgun still there.
I don't recall, what the asking price was, but Steve decided to make a low-ball Sunday show closing offer.
He got the gun, a Lefever with brass WF plate for $130...
It was a pretty good condition box lock, no serial number probably turn of the century 12 Guage.
To this day, it hangs over a mantal in his home.
The WP plate is more that likely a drawer ID plate, but it's a topic of conversation at the occasional get togethers.
;D
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I remember reading, years ago, a story about a gun dealer who had gotten hold of an old "Property of Wells Fargo" metal stamp. He'd stamp old shotguns with them and throw them in the bargain barrel. He never represented them as authentic, but lots of guys thought they were taking him when they "discovered" the stamping. I personally thought it was pretty funny.
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:) Well Now ;)
A PLUS ONE fer Perfesser Marvelous (again). During those Halcyon Days of Yesteryear, "People" didn't "Buy" coach guns. Coach guns as we think of them today are an invention of Hollywood. Stagecoach Guards were expected to provide their own firearms and in the day of Black Powder Paper and Brass cartridges, a sawed off shotgun wasn't much use past 10 - 12 yards. If your shotgun didn't have full length barrels, you couldn't hit anything with it. Let alone hit anything from a rocking, rolling, bouncing Stagecoach. Hollyweird fer Sure Brere Rabbit.
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Since so many in C&WAS use the John Ford Reference Library - look at 'Appaloosa' and see Everitt Hitch's shotgun.
His backstory included being a shotgun guard, so his long-barrelled 8 guage fits well with his character - think of it as a swivel gun...
A true 'coach gun' was a flintlock or percussion muzzleloader - often with a belled barrel - and was an English weapon of an earlier era - over here, they were just called a 'sawed-off' and barrel length varied wildly.
The problem is in the trying to find a verifiable one, because a hacksaw's a pretty handy thing, and a few minutes work can make a big difference when pricing.
Scouts Out!
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As a personal commentary, My "alter ego" "Hacksaw MacGurk" is often want to remove unwanted and un-necessary steel from the end of overly long gun barrels. I have personally turned many "fouling pieces" into the personification of "Coach Guns" and I unabashedly proud of the work. Ta Da!!
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St. George, wantonly bursting bubbles since 2004. ;D
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Howdy Shotgunners,
Yes, it's likely that the typical shotgun in the old west was a long barreled number. In fact, most leaned by the door in the homestead (darned sod busters). Then our sport(?) is not based on the real old west. After all, we sport 2 six-guns (a real rarity in the old days). Many (most) shooters are using a two handed hold for the sixgun, plus "gunfighter" or B Western were clearly not seen often (ever?) in the old west. Rifles are shot at sixgun ranges and rarely require more than looking at the front sight. Anyway, it's our game and we love it.
The above was penned by an unapologetic Classic Cowboy (more accurately, Jurassic Cowboy).
Rev. Chase
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I have read, or maybe it was a youtube video, one persons opinion of the "coach" shotgun. His opinion was that since the guy riding "shotgun" on a stage coach was pretty much out in the wide open, and unrestricted, he probably used a full length double barreled shotgun. The sawed off version, commonly referred to as a "coach gun", would have been much more useful to a bar tender in a saloon.
Opinions are kind of like noses. Everyone has one.
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I have read, or maybe it was a youtube video, one persons opinion of the "coach" shotgun. His opinion was that since the guy riding "shotgun" on a stage coach was pretty much out in the wide open, and unrestricted, he probably used a full length double barreled shotgun. The sawed off version, commonly referred to as a "coach gun", would have been much more useful to a bar tender in a saloon.
Opinions are kind of like noses. Everyone has one.
I suspect there are strong elements of truth in this post. (smile)
Dave
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I'm picturing a driver and a shotgun messenger next to each other on the front seat of a coach. Suppose the threat is on the same side as the driver. I imagine that driver would appreciate every inch on those barrels reaching across in front of him.
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:) Dunno ;)
Perhaps the intrepid defender climbed on top of the coach as the Duke demonstrated with his trusty '92, knocking off marauding evil doers with amazing accuracy. Amazing, one shot, one baddie. Most splendid.
Ever notice, those Coaches never seemed to have any luggage tied to the top?? Strange, that.
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:) Dunno ;)
Perhaps the intrepid defender climbed on top of the coach as the Duke demonstrated with his trusty '92, knocking off marauding evil doers with amazing accuracy. Amazing, one shot, one baddie. Most splendid.
Ever notice, those Coaches never seemed to have any luggage tied to the top?? Strange, that.
Only the times when it worked out like that got made into movies!
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Howdy all,
Could it be that the short barreled "coach guns" (some marked "Wells Fargo" were intended for guards in the baggage cars of trains?
Rev. Chase
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Lefever Wells Farge coach gun, here is the photo of Steve's gun.
This photo was posted on The Firearms Forum from about 12 years ago.
All comment & replies describe it as a fake, but is nice display anyway.
Steve paid 130 bucks about 27 years ago.
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:) Major 2 ;)
For 130 Bucks, that shotgun is well worth a nice Shadow Box. Faque?? You betcha. But a real nice Side Lock Hammerless Double is well worth a great wall decoration. Or inna glass topped Coffee Table. Or, if Fluid Steel barrels, the occasional CAS match just fer fun you betcha.
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Mike, the box is sealed with a paper backing, so is hasn't been unmounted in many lustrum ;)
It does have Damascus barrels and whether or not the locks' function is unknown.
But it is a cool display and I'd venture it would be at least the original purchase price to just make and mount a gun in oak shadow box like that today :-\
About a year ago, I acquired a Spanish Ruby with French acceptance marks.
I mounded it with two WW1 French medals....
I priced shadow boxes for it, and they were in the $75-80 range and less that half the length.
I finally found this one painted wood & plex at Hobby Lobby for $35.
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Another thought, the term sawed off, if it has a factory short barrel is it really sawed off or is this just another misused word.
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and did they really call them street sweepers back then or is that another Hollywood term?
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If you're talking about 'Tombstone' - it was called a 'street howitzer'...
'Street Sweeper' came about closer to WWI, along with 'Trench Broom' - also including the Thompson SMG in that sobriquet.
The short-barrelled shotgun had a number of names and a myriad of uses - pretty much none for a regular citizen, but since 'Tombstone' came out, every C&WAS scenario includes them.
Scouts Out!
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Barrel length for coach top riders would remain about the same regardless of the era in question, I would think.According to the redoubtable wikipedia, the British Mail regulations 1788–1816 stated that every mail coach should have a guard with one 14" barrel blunderbuss and 2 single shot pistols.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blunderbuss
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The old west of Hollywood (Stagecoach)
(https://www.kino-teatr.ru/movie/kadr/25388/pv_639091.jpg)
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What about the Greeners used in John Wayne movies? Are they just movie guns?
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Greener did make a good, solid shotgun and were available in regular sporting lengths - many stayed in those lengths, but sawed offs were more photogenic.
John Wayne movies are just that - movies - and the actors are costumed and geared up according to an Assistant Director's whims - they're 'not' historical references.
If they accurately filmed what mostly went on after the cattle driving, you could hear crickets chirp and sweat hitting the ground.
The 'real' Old West was vastly different from the 'reel' Old West.
Scouts Out!