1980's Colt problem

[hatman]

I've been on a western buying binge for the last year as a pre-retirement bucket list thing.
I've purchased on Ruger New Vacquero and a dozen Uberti's from 1851 to 1875.
I also purchased from gunbroker a 7 1/2" 357 actual Colt which I was excited to get.
When I received it, I felt the timing wasn't right, but nevertheless, in my naivete, I took it to the range.
After two rounds of copper jacketed cartridges the gun jammed.
When I got home, after several other attempts I finally banged out the cylinder and found a piece of the copper jacket in the barrel and a piece in the cylinder.

Couple questions:
- Has anyone else experienced something like this?
- My serial number tracks to about 1981.  Is this a systemic problem with Colts made in that timeframe?
- Assuming I didn't do too much damage with the rubber hammer, how much will it cost from a decent gunsmith to make this into a proper and safe revolver?

[Blackpowder Burn]

While I've heard that Colt QC was spotty during that timeframe, that does seem just a tad extreme.    You have to wonder if the previous owner had something to do with the problem.

At any rate, one gunsmith I can attest to from personal experience is Alan Harton of Houston, Texas.  I've been to his shop and seen his work, even bought a couple of Gen 1 Colts from him.  He does beautiful work and prices are reasonable.  Do a Google search for Alan Harton, and you'll come up with lots of information, magazine articles about his work , etc.  You can reach him at 713-772-8314.

[Shotgun Franklin]

There's a lot of reasons people sell guns, unfortunately one is that there's a problem with the gun. Harton ought to be able to make it right.

[Advertising]

[Drydock]

Sounds like a severe timing problem, I'd say its a safe bet somewhere down the line someone "Messed" with it.  Hard to say how much until a good smith looks at it.  You've got a good recommendation there.

[griswold]

I had a similar problem with an early 3rd gen (1978 I think now) colt I bought. 7.5" barreled 44 spl.

I bought a 44-40 cylinder for it and until that arrived I did not shoot it.
Then after the cylinder arrived and I had it installed, found that the cartridges jammed against the recoil plate. Took the cylinder out and discovered the face of the recoil shield was not machined smooth. Had a high spot on the left side with the barrel facing away.
I tried to run a file on it.......man that case hardening was hard......took it back to the same gunsmith and he corrected it.

Sold it in 2008, seeing it several times since on Gunbrokers.........no one wants the poor thing.........

[hatman]

I had a similar problem with an early 3rd gen (1978 I think now) colt I bought. 7.5" barreled 44 spl.

I bought a 44-40 cylinder for it and until that arrived I did not shoot it.
Then after the cylinder arrived and I had it installed, found that the cartridges jammed against the recoil plate. Took the cylinder out and discovered the face of the recoil shield was not machined smooth. Had a high spot on the left side with the barrel facing away.
I tried to run a file on it.......man that case hardening was hard......took it back to the same gunsmith and he corrected it.

Sold it in 2008, seeing it several times since on Gunbrokers.........no one wants the poor thing.........

Thanks for your experience.

Yes, while I have overall great experiences with gunbroker, there is risk.  This time I got 'nabbed'.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Usually, when the gun is that far out of whack the primer won't go off due to a mis-centered hit. Something is afoul here. The OP never said if this gun was represented as NIB or used. I had this same situation happen years ago on a Rossi .44 Spcl. The bolt notches were offset. Unfixable, unless I wanted to have someone weld them up & recut which was cost prohibitive for a Rossi to say the least.

If you're stuck with it then call Colt and send it in for a repair. Don't let some local yokel idiot gunsmith make it worse.

[Hondo44]

hat man,

No not a systemic problem with 3rd gen Colts. What specifically did you feel was not right with the timing?

Have you ruled out the ammo as the problem? Tried other brands, cast lead bullets, etc.?

First thing to diagnose is cylinder timing by cocking the hammer very slow. Once it clicks into the full cock notch, check if the cyl has locked in place. If not, it has 'late' "follow up". The cyl hand (or cyl pawl) is just very slightly too short. Stretch the hand by removing it, laying flat on it's side on a solid flat surface and tap the side of it below the second step. It doesn't take much!Try it and repeat if needed until the cyl bolt locks into the cyl notch at the same time the hammer clicks into full cock. Stretching the hand can fix the problem very simply and you have nothing to lose, the only other solution is a new hand and that's a lot more work to fit from scratch.

Second would be to check cylinder chamber to barrel bore alignment. With hammer fully cocked, cyl locked into position and flashlight shining into the firing pin hole from the hammer side, look down the bore for one side of the chamber sticking out from the barrel bore. You can also check with a cleaning rod. Slide it down in contact with one side of the bore and then the other. Does it catch on  the edge of the chamber mouth? If so send back to Colt or a smith mentioned above. That's a big problem.

[hatman]

hat man,

No not a systemic problem with 3rd gen Colts. What specifically did you feel was not right with the timing?

Have you ruled out the ammo as the problem? Tried other brands, cast lead bullets, etc.?

First thing to diagnose is cylinder timing by cocking the hammer very slow. Once it clicks into the full cock notch, check if the cyl has locked in place. If not, it has 'late' "follow up". The cyl hand (or cyl pawl) is just very slightly too short. Stretch the hand by removing it, laying flat on it's side on a solid flat surface and tap the side of it below the second step. It doesn't take much!Try it and repeat if needed until the cyl bolt locks into the cyl notch at the same time the hammer clicks into full cock. Stretching the hand can fix the problem very simply and you have nothing to lose, the only other solution is a new hand and that's a lot more work to fit from scratch.

Second would be to check cylinder chamber to barrel bore alignment. With hammer fully cocked, cyl locked into position and flashlight shining into the firing pin hole from the hammer side, look down the bore for one side of the chamber sticking out from the barrel bore. You can also check with a cleaning rod. Slide it down in contact with one side of the bore and then the other. Does it catch on  the edge of the chamber mouth? If so send back to Colt or a smith mentioned above. That's a big problem.

Thanks Hondo,

A couple of clarifications:
- Yes, this gun was advertised as NIB/never fired.
- When I first received it, it seems that the timing was off, or something.  When cocking very slowly it would often lock up after the first click.  After the first shooting use and removing and reinserting the cylinder a few times, I'm not having this issue now.
- When I did fire it the first time I couldn't even hit the paper on an 8" target at 25 feet with those first two rounds.  That was certainly my first clue that something wasn't right.

I tried out your suggestion with the cleaning rod and it does seem to catch ever so slightly.  For comparison I tried this with my Uberti 7th Cav and Uberti Outlaw.  I detected no catch with the Outlaw, but about the same catch with the 7th Cav (both also 7 1/2").
One difference I'm seeing is that with the Uberti's fully cocked there is absolutely no movement of the cylinder.  With the Colt there is a small amount of play, both side-to-side and back and forth.  It's a very small amount, but it's there.

I'm tempted to try it with different cartridges since I'm no longer experiencing the cocking/timing issue I first encountered.  Maybe I did something wrong the first time I pulled the cylinder??

[Hondo44]

Thanks Hondo,

A couple of clarifications:
- Yes, this gun was advertised as NIB/never fired.
- When I first received it, it seems that the timing was off, or something.  When cocking very slowly it would often lock up after the first click.  After the first shooting use and removing and reinserting the cylinder a few times, I'm not having this issue now.
- When I did fire it the first time I couldn't even hit the paper on an 8" target at 25 feet with those first two rounds.  That was certainly my first clue that something wasn't right.

I tried out your suggestion with the cleaning rod and it does seem to catch ever so slightly.  For comparison I tried this with my Uberti 7th Cav and Uberti Outlaw.  I detected no catch with the Outlaw, but about the same catch with the 7th Cav (both also 7 1/2").
One difference I'm seeing is that with the Uberti's fully cocked there is absolutely no movement of the cylinder.  With the Colt there is a small amount of play, both side-to-side and back and forth.  It's a very small amount, but it's there.

I'm tempted to try it with different cartridges since I'm no longer experiencing the cocking/timing issue I first encountered.  Maybe I did something wrong the first time I pulled the cylinder??

When you 1st got it and it was new, it may have just been new parts not fitted quite right just seating in. The main thing is, it went away. This is not common but can be the case.

There's nothing you could have done by removing and replacing cylinder. But you should always pull the hammer all the way back from loading position before lowering it all the way down after replacing cyl or loading/unloading. That properly indexes and locks the cyl in correct position before the next shot.

The side to side play is not an issue with hammer down. But you should not have it with hammer cocked. And chambers should line up with the bore. If you have play w/hammer cocked the hand is slightly short even though the cyl follows up. The hand 2nd tooth should hold the cylinder's right side of notch tight against the cyl bolt. Or the sear hammer or hammer notch is slightly short.

I think your gun could benefit from an action tune up. You want to get rid of the factory springs anyway which would be included, because they unnecessarily "beat up" the gun.

And the cam on the hammer is so tall, it over stresses the bolt spring-arm. Check for a SAA smith in your area or I can recommend some. Usually runs about $125 and well worth it unless you're of the mind to get a book and learn how to do yourself.

[hatman]

When you 1st got it and it was new, it may have just been new parts not fitted quite right just seating in. The main thing is, it went away. This is not common but can be the case.

There's nothing you could have done by removing and replacing cylinder. But you should always pull the hammer all the way back from loading position before lowering it all the way down after replacing cyl or loading/unloading. That properly indexes and locks the cyl in correct position before the next shot.

The side to side play is not an issue with hammer down. But you should not have it with hammer cocked. And chambers should line up with the bore. If you have play w/hammer cocked the hand is slightly short even though the cyl follows up. The hand 2nd tooth should hold the cylinder's right side of notch tight against the cyl bolt. Or the sear hammer or hammer notch is slightly short.

I think your gun could benefit from an action tune up. You want to get rid of the factory springs anyway which would be included, because they unnecessarily "beat up" the gun.

And the cam on the hammer is so tall, it over stresses the bolt spring-arm. Check for a SAA smith in your area or I can recommend some. Usually runs about $125 and well worth it unless you're of the mind to get a book and learn how to do yourself.

Thanks again sir.
I just checked and I get the same amount of play with the hammer fully down and fully cocked.  It's just a guess but it's probably like 1/100th inch.

Thanks for the ROM estimate.  I've been searching for one.  I was just recommended a gunsmith in my area (Pinto's in Renton WA), but if you have other recommendations that would be appreciated.
I'd gladly pay $125 for complete peace of mind firing this revolver.
I just find it ironic that I've been so happy with the Uberti's and then when I finally get a real Colt I have this to deal with.

[Hondo44]

Thanks again sir.
I just checked and I get the same amount of play with the hammer fully down and fully cocked.  It's just a guess but it's probably like 1/100th inch.

Thanks for the ROM estimate.  I've been searching for one.  I was just recommended a gunsmith in my area (Pinto's in Renton WA), but if you have other recommendations that would be appreciated.
I'd gladly pay $125 for complete peace of mind firing this revolver.
I just find it ironic that I've been so happy with the Uberti's and then when I finally get a real Colt I have this to deal with.

I have a good size list of well known specialists but none near you.

Just luck of the draw. I have to work on every Colt, Uberti, etc., I buy off the street or LGStore. The only ones I have that have not needed work are USFA and Colts from Doug Turnbull, except a lighter hammer spring.