Quote of the day

[Niederlander]

You're right, we ran them next to dry in the desert.  If you used a lot of lube you ended up with what was essentially liquid sand paper.

[PJ Hardtack]

Being an ex-Regular Army type (Canadian) I've enjoyed this thread. The issue rifle of my era was the C1 (Canuck version of the FN-FAL) chambered in 7.62mm x 51mm (.308); same NATO round as for the M14. The Brits called theirs the SLR (Self Loading Rifle).

We had a lot of faith in it, but it had problems. Our version had a folding cocking handle that would get locked in place by fine grit collected on the hinge point, necessitating the use of a bayonet to pry it open. The whole design didn't like operating 'dry' and the only lubricant we were issued was a thick viscosity oil. The cocking handle would also freeze over with sleet or ice under arctic conditions, but there we operated them dry.

Recoil was hardly noticeable compared to the No. 4 Lee-Enfield .303s we still used for target shooting. When firing the C1, you heard a lot of "clink, clank, clunk ..." as the breechblock 'rat tail' compressed the spring in the butt stock. When you shot it dry, there was the distinct sound of the bolt locking back and the absence of the sensation of the breechblock closing. There was no doubt in your mind that the mag was empty.

We regarded the replacement of the FN C1 with a version of the 5.56mm Colt AR 15 as a travesty. Our guys in Afghanistan had the same problems with theirs as your troops in Iraq - dust and dirt; weapons cleaning a daily chore. An infantryman needs a better weapon than one chambered for a cartridge considered 'marginal' on varmints past 250 yards, but modern wars seem to involve a lot of CQB scenarios suited to the 5.56mm.

[Charles Isaac]

The issue rifle of my era was the C1 (Canuck version of the FN-FAL) chambered in 7.62mm x 51mm (.308)

Congratulations on being issued and using a real rifle, PJ Hardtack. Whenever I got around troops from other countries while I was carrying an M16 and them with their FALs, I always felt like I should apologize to them for myself carrying a weapon of substandard power, like I was a slacker, using what was easier, lighter, and so soft shooting so as not to bother the sissified Americans.


One gentleman put it well-"If you gotta shoot someone, you want to shoot 'em really hard!"

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[PJ Hardtack]

My experience with the 7.62x51 gave me a life long love affair with the .308. Currently I own four - three hunting rifles and a 'tacticool'. All the power I need and can handle.

Odd how we can arm a soldier with a "Poodle Shooter" (Jeff Cooper-ism) and yet demand belted magnums for game.

"Use enough gun."   Robert Ruark, I believe.  'Tain't no deader than dead. The late Finn Aagaard became a believer in the .308 for African plains game. He settled on 150 gr bullets, using the bullet best suited for the application.

Off topic, but another thing the Army did for me was teach me the value of being slung up. My best shooting position is the cross-legged sitting position. Most folks I know can't even get into the position (or back up again) without assistance. An NCO used to walk in front of us slung up in the seated position and say - "Soldier, when I push down on your rifle barrel, I wanna see your (_*_) come off the ground ..."

[Kayleen]

I have not posted here for what seems an eternity. But must share with all of you. I have 3 daughters and for quite some time two of them really had nothing to do with guns. To date my oldest and youngest do a fair amount of shooting and are not afraid to try a new gun when they have it offered to them. Some of you met Kelley when GAF was at Ackley, Iowa, she shoots sporting clays and trap and also is not afraid to try a new gun. Yes I am proud of the girls and the fact that they weren't afraid of the recoil on some guns. My four kids may have lived in town but they spent a fair amount of time in the country also. I also didnot want them being afraid to touch a gun as many people are. By the way my favorite gun is my 45-70 and black powder. (All 4 kids want it.)
Kayleen

[Pitspitr]

Kayleen! Great to hear from you again. Don't be a stranger. Good to have you back.

[cpt dan blodgett]

My experience with the 7.62x51 gave me a life long love affair with the .308. Currently I own four - three hunting rifles and a 'tacticool'. All the power I need and can handle.

Odd how we can arm a soldier with a "Poodle Shooter" (Jeff Cooper-ism) and yet demand belted magnums for game.

"Use enough gun."   Robert Ruark, I believe.  'Tain't no deader than dead. The late Finn Aagaard became a believer in the .308 for African plains game. He settled on 150 gr bullets, using the bullet best suited for the application.

Off topic, but another thing the Army did for me was teach me the value of being slung up. My best shooting position is the cross-legged sitting position. Most folks I know can't even get into the position (or back up again) without assistance. An NCO used to walk in front of us slung up in the seated position and say - "Soldier, when I push down on your rifle barrel, I wanna see your (_*_) come off the ground ..."

When I was a kid I ate 9 elk that were too stupid to realize Dad's 32 Special 94 Win Circa 1907 was not enough gun to kill them.

[PJ Hardtack]

In this neck o' the woods, you aren't considered a real man if you don't hunt with a .338. My wife's .243 was barred from a "hunting rifle" match as the 'real men' were embarrassed by her winning consistently. Oh, and you couldn't sit or use a sling either - offhand or kneeling only.
Recently, they had an "Itty Bitty Buddy" shoot (.25 calibre or less) and she won with her .243. Actually, she tied with me and my 6mm Remington, but she sure outshot the other men.

The last five head of game I've taken (deer, bear, moose) have fallen to either a 45-70 or a 50-70 using my cast bullets and BP.
In the case of the two moose, it was a smokeless equivalent at less than 1200 fps. I regret that it wasn't BP.

[Delmonico]

In our modern world it should be changed to "Use Enough Bullet."  With some of the modern all copper bullets such as the Barnes X and it's copies a small gun firing those often does as good or better job as a bigger rifle firing a regular jacketed bullet.  You don't have to worry about them expanding too much or not enough.  The Barnes X saved a certain Savage 99 in 243 from becoming nothing but a handy varmint gun.  With a decent shot at reasonable range I would not be afraid to take on an elk, although the same rifle in 308 with a 165 Barnes would be better.  With that combo there are just a few things that walk the earth I'd feel undergunned with.

[cpt dan blodgett]

As I recall Bell took about all there was to take with a 7mm kaiser and its dimmer brother the 275are rugby
all boils down to hitting where it kills

[St. George]

There's a quoted print on my office walls - Teddy Roosevelt's observation:  "The Only Shots That Count, Are Those That Hit".

Accurate bullet placement supersedes bullet weight, and shooting humans is far, far different than shooting animals.

A wounded soldier needs care - whether hit with 7.62x51, 7.62x39 or 5.56mm - and oftentimes becomes instantly combat-ineffective due to the shock of actually being hit, regardless of where struck, and animals are more visceral than that.

Scouts Out!

[Delmonico]

It's said that for many years till it lost it's popularity, the 22 Hornet was the most popular round in the far north country among the natives.  They killed all the game in that country with it.  Rounds were cheaper, plus much lighter, good if you have to pack stuff in from the trading post.  Besides, like Bell they shot close and hit where they were aiming. 

[Charles Isaac]

On the subject of bullet placement, an historical example that I first read about as a child comes to mind.

"An officer, who especially prided himself in his pistol-shooting, was attacked by a stalwart mutineer armed with a heavy sword.  The officer, unfortunately for himself, carried a Colt's Navy pistol of small caliber and fired a sharp-pointed bullet of sixty to the pound and a heavy charge of powder, its range being 600 yards, as I have frequently proved.  This he proceeded to empty into the Sepoy as soon as he advanced, but, having done so, he waited just one second too long to see the effect of his shooting, and was cloven to the teeth by his antagonist, who then dropped down and died beside him.  My informant, who witnessed the affair, told me that five out of the six bullets had struck the Sepoy close together in the chest, and all had passed through him and out of the back."

I figured that was an example of good bullet placement, but I have met many people on the internet that, in that Officers position,  they would have just shot the Sepoy through the head-one well placed shot with 5 shots left to deal with other enemies. I'm not so cool under pressure and most likely would have aimed for the chest too, it being the bigger target. I hold the Colt's Navy Pistol in high regard, but offer it as an unbiased example of a situation where "more" probably would have been better.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

The '51 Colt is an excellent weapon ...

But I would not carry anything for personal defense that did not have a '4' right behind the decibel in a caliber sizing .... I would probably have been one of those officers carrying a Walker or a RIC Webley ....

TTFN,

[Guns Garrett]

The weapon is held with the butt resting on the forehead and fired.

Then, upon the nose and fired.

Then, against the chin and fired.

Then, against the sternum and fired.

Then, against the stomach and fired.

And the final proof - against the groin and fired.

The demonstrator safes the piece and walks away with no ill effect.

A most effective training session - eliminating any and all fears...



Seen this same demo 40 some years ago. Damn I'm not the only thing getting older and still looking good.

Try that with a Martini-Henry...

[Guns Garrett]

A quote I am paricularly fond of:

"Only accurate rifles are interesting." - Townsend Whelen