Attention 50-90 shooters!

[Eric F]

So I have been trying to keep things as inexpensive as possible and found this.

Back ground, I only had experience with pistol and 45-70(not a bunch but enough)  When I got the big 50 I got my lymen dies and found that full length sizeing was a pain.  Then several folks told me no need to size at all.  Others say atleast neck size.  Well I got to thinking I wont size at all and just chamber check my loaded ammo as it comes off the press.  The thing I found was the crimp.  I read just use the full length sizer to make a taper crimp and do it by feel.  That has not worked so well for me.  Then I found a lee die that will seat and crimp at the same time(I love lee dies for this) And it looks like the 50-90 will just fit!  I am thinking of testing the S&W 500 mag seating/crimp die.  the 500 mag is .526 O.D. and the 50-90 is .528 O.D.

Any thoughts?

[bear tooth billy]

If you are shooting a single shot which I assume you are, there is no reason to crimp in the first place , the crimp is needed in a multiple capacity gun to hold the bullet in place from another rounds recoil, but since your next round is not in your gun the only crimp you possibly need would be to keep the bullet from falling out. I use RCBS legacy dies and full length size  these are large cases
and I use plenty of case lube when resizing.  I'm  wondering if you're not lubing them enough and that is why you are having trouble
sizing them   
                        BTB

[Eric F]

no the problem was one shot spray lube, now I have a jar of the hornaday stuff.  I am going to run a batch maybe tomorrow and try thr 500 die, this is the first I have seen about no crimp, could it really be true all I need is a neck expander and bullet seater?  some how I think I have gotten incorect info along the way, seems too good to be true.

but since your next round is not in your gun the only crimp you possibly need would be to keep the bullet from falling out.

  Then again after rereading your post...........I only taper crimp to remove the bell.  I do it in the Full length sizer.  And it is by feel, which I find to be inaccurate/consistant.  With the 500 mag die I will hopefully come to a "stop" there by making every case consistant.  I am wondering if The 500 could be used as a neck sizer too?  is .002 really going to be that diffrent?

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[bear tooth billy]

you should not be crimping with you sizing die, I've never heard that one before. Let,s talk about your
bullet seating die, there are 2 adjustments 1. the whole die screwed in or out affects your crimp 2.the screw on top
sets your bullet depth. I use my crimp die to remove the bell and very little crimp and when you get it set right, BOTH
adjustments, your press handle should be at the bottom of its stroke. Remember consistency is the key to accuracy

[Eric F]

My seating die (lymen) screwed all the way down will not crimp or take the bell out.  It only seats the bullet.  The directions say it will crimp but it doesnt.  I got the taper crimp idea from this book I have, Loading the Black Powder Rifle Cartridge. age 93  Applying the taper crimp paragraph 2

With Straight walled cases like 45-70 the full-length resizing die makes a fari substitute for a taper crimp. Remove the decaping pin and gently press the loaded cartridge into the die just far enough to rempve the flare from the case mouth.

  Later in the same section he mentions a 45acp taper crimp die for use with the 45-70 hence my idea for a taper crimp die for the 50-90 by using a 500 mag taper crimp die.  Besides, the lymen die is a roll crimp, I want a taper crimp.

If any one had a diffrent or better idea or thoughts please let me know.

[Haggis MacGurk]

My Dies are RCBS, and I've found that if you adjust the seating/crimp die properly, you will get a properly seated bullet, and the case makes just enough contact with the crimp thingy* to remove the bell, and nothing more. Incidentally, for all my .50 brass(Starline), I put a full roll crimp on them the first time they were fired in order to aid the fire-forming. After that, all I do is neck-size.

For case lube, the best results I've had were with the sticky Lyman case lube, and the ol' ink pad.

Tip for the cheapskates like me: I neck size with my standard full-length sizing die, it's all a matter of adjustment.

[Eric F]

Tip for the cheapskates like me: I neck size with my standard full-length sizing die, it's all a matter of adjustment.

  Might I ask how does that work?  If its a FL die how can it neck size with out sizeing the rest of the case too?

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Easy-Peasy!

Just adjust the sizing die upwards.  For 45-70 I seldom have the bottom of the die protruding below the opening in the press.  That leaves it about 1/2" from fully touching the shellholder.  Its not really neck-sizing only, but it sizes the neck enough to hold a bullet fimly enough, and leaves the bottom of the case snug in the chamber. The middle of the case is somewhat tapered in this operation, but is of no real consequence. The neck expander should just barely true up the neck to "uniform" the diameter of the case-mouth and just slightly bell the mouth for the entry of the bullet.

Bottleneck ammo reloaders often do something similar.  Adjust the die up a bit to avoid pushing the shoulder back.  Same trick;  Different purpose.

[Eric F]

Well I finaly have everything ironed out now on my setup. I thought I would share. Since this has been such a feet for learning and understanding.

I have the lee classic cast press and lymen dies.

in position 1 I have a blank die that I moved the decaping pin to. I also use this for a powder compression plug.

in position 2 I have a full length sizeing die that is turned almost all the way out for neck sizing/crimping only(explination comes later)

in position 3 in the expantion die set to barely start my lead bullet

in position 4 is the bullet seating die, set to seat the bullet only

I am shooting in a sharps rifle so I do not full length size my brass, I only neck size when the brass gets hard to chamber(has not happened yet).The crimp is the funny thing, I have been told to crimp from some taper crimp by others, and yet still others say no crimp at all if it chambers.

when I taper crimp I use the sizeing die and aply just enough force to hold the bullet snug. Sofar my most accurate load formula has been with new brass neck sized only and no crimp.

So here is my process in loading. Assuming I am going to size.

1. I lube all brass
2. size and prime
3.bell all brass
4. insert powder via 36 inch copper drop tube
5.insert wads compress powder and insert lube plug
6. seat bullet
7.if crimping back to the sizeing die adjust 1.5 turns out from the neck sizeing position

after shooting and washing brass in hot soapy water I deprime in the blank die set up for powder compression. I have a stack of washers I set with the compression plug to keep a consistant setting. Just take the plug and washers out and insert the decaping pin.

Taking my time I can load roughly 40 an hour if I premeasure my powder charges in film canisters.

My setup can work for any of the blackpowder cartridges. Maybe I am making more steps than necessary but sofar it works for me.

I never recall having to do this much when I loaded 45-70 but it was a bp substitute and lee dies which was a lot faster setup.

[Grogan]

Eric,

I think if I was doing it I'd make the following changes:

1. I'd get myself a Lee (hand) Decapping Set for the .45 Rimmed Rifle cases (they do make them although I'm not sure they list them?)  This is the kind with the little circular steel base and the Heavy Duty Decapping Rod that you use a Hammer with to tap out the spent Primer.

Then, I'd either turn it around, what I do with mine to make it work w/the .50 Sharps case, or else have a machinist open up the cavity to accept the larger .50 cal's rim.

Reason is if you're not depriming your cases BEFORE you wash them, you're leaving some BP residue in the Primer Pocket, and eventually it will start attacking your brass at that point. 

2.  I think I'd consider using the Roll Crimping feature on my Seating Die to either just straighten out the belled case mouth or else put a slight crimp on your case, whichever works best for you...

The reason I say this is THINK about what happens if you're using a Sizing Die to put a "crimp" on your cases.  1st, it's happening along the length of  your bullet which is touching the inside walls of  your case.  It would seem to me that any appreciable "grab" by the case is actually SWAGING your bullet down (albeit maybe only slightly).

Remember brass has a certain amount of "spring" to it (elasticity) and in order to make it "grab", you're actually having to crimp it MORE than what it seems (because it springs back to where you see it), whereas the soft Lead bullet DOES NOT!

My 2 Cents anyway

[Eric F]

good thoughts, the bullets I am curently using are not in any way touching my sizeing die at the current seating depth.  It may with a diffrent bullet.  I have had problems getting any crimp on my seating die.  I also like the taper crimp better any way.  My 500 mag dies should be in today so I will try them next loading.  Thanks for the good information

[Grogan]

good thoughts, the bullets I am curently using are not in any way touching my sizeing die at the current seating depth.  It may with a diffrent bullet.  I have had problems getting any crimp on my seating die.  I also like the taper crimp better any way.  My 500 mag dies should be in today so I will try them next loading.  Thanks for the good information

Eric,

I don't think you understand what I meant.

I wasn't referring to any external portion of your bullet, the part that's outside the case (and no, that wouldn't touch the die).

I'm referring to the portion of the bullet INSIDE the case.  (The part that's getting "squeezed" when the case is taper crimped)

[bear tooth billy]

Let your gun tell you what is the best crimp for you, it knows what will work best better than we can tell you.
Shoot at paper from at least 200 yds 300 is better and see what groups best. Shoot off of a bench or however
you can shoot well. I didn't have a 50 cal case trimmer and my brass varied up to .015'' this was enough to vary
my crimp. I built my big 50 mainly for historical purposes but it shoots almost as well as my 45/90 and that 650 grain
bullet just smashes the target