Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Darksider's Den => Topic started by: Mako on April 08, 2024, 05:53:09 PM
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Okay Gentlemen (excuse me I mean cowboys),
You get two votes so don't choose two hulls or two wads. You can change your vote if necessary. If you use more than one type then vote your most common but tell us about your others in the reply I'm asking you to make.
Hulls:
• Tell us your brand, tell us why.
• You can also tell us your gauge and why.
• Star crimp? If so, 8 or 6 point?
• Roll crimp? If so tell us your finished length. I wouldn't be surprised if Coffin Maker was loading mini shells to go with his mini pistol loads...
• Are you enough of a masochist to use brass shells? And if you do, how do you get the initial resistance to get a decent powder burn? If you do these tell us more, my hat is off to you (and my sympathies).
Wads:
• Tell us why you choose either plastic or fiber
• Tell us your stack combination if you use fiber/cardboard/nitro cards or a hybrid fiber with plastic.
Not on the numbered poll above but tell us your Powder grain size size and charge weight
~Mako
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Green STS or Gold Nitro (preferred cuz they look more like brass) plastic hulls. Any 209. slightly less than full 4.3cc dipper, ~60gr by weight, of whatever BP but prefer 1F for the additional flame. Red plastic wad, formerly Winchester now Claybuster 1138-12 (I think - it's red) with 1 to 1 1/8 oz shot, regular star crimp, all on a Lee Loadall except for dipping the powder. I can get 5 BP loadings out of these Remington hulls. They get to looking pretty frosty but continue to shuck!
When loading brass, I use the same load except use an 11ga .125" Nitro overpowder card over the powder and under the red wad. This gives a good seal. Then an 11ga over shot card glued with wood glue.
Several lustra ago an old shotgunner on this site, Strawberry Lars I think?, said that old timey shotguns worked better with fiber wads and newer work better with plastic, having to do with forcing cones or such. I shot some fiber but quickly went to plastic wads and since it ain't been broke I haven't fixed it. Cleanup in the bores has always been super easy in Baikal and TTN shotguns.
I have roll crimped a few shells with an antique tool and they are cool but I really need 12ga overshot cards because the 11ga are too big and I have to trim them, plus my method of trimming the plastic hulls is tedious.
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Green STS or Gold Nitro (preferred cuz they look more like brass) plastic hulls. Any 209. slightly less than full 4.3cc dipper, ~60gr by weight, of whatever BP but prefer 1F for the additional flame. Red plastic wad, formerly Winchester now Claybuster 1138-12 (I think - it's red) with 1 to 1 1/8 oz shot, regular star crimp, all on a Lee Loadall except for dipping the powder. I can get 5 BP loadings out of these Remington hulls. They get to looking pretty frosty but continue to shuck!
Abilene I knew you used the Gold Nitros because I do too and we talked about it several times (Including the 1F). I remember how it always upset "Judge Menday Coming" because we were shooting 15 to 20 feet of flame. But he was so easy to tweak, do you remember the time I used the load that was nothing but feathers when the Cabs were still over on the range off of RR967? I thought he was going to swallow his tongue thinking I had plastered a bird flying in front of the target. He was so worried about the birds when we were in the cedar thickets. He tried to get me thrown out of the match.
I had switched to the Clay Busters but I lucked into about 500 Winchester wads and have been using those. I can't tell which one leaves the most "snake skin" but I think it is the Clay buster. Yep, a red wad, a 209 of any flavor including magnum, 4.3ccs of 1F and a scoop of what ever size shot I have. i think it is actually between 1 and 1 1/8th ounces because I adjust for column height to get a pretty crimp. I also use 40 pounds of wad pressure on a MEC press to get my seating depth which controls the crimp consistent.
~Mako
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For monthly matches my load is:
Gun Club, Federal Top Gun (Old style with the silver base)
CB0178-12 Wad
35 grains by weight of APP
7/8 oz of shot.
Winchester 209 primer
Annual or above matches:
AA Hulls (only use them once)
WAA12R / CB1138-12 wad
3.5cc FFg or FFFg
1 oz of shot
Win 209 Primer
Extra lite loads smokeless loads. I loaded these for my late wife. Less felt recoil than the AA LNLR.
STS Hull
CB0175-12 Wad
13 gr 700X
3/4 oz shot
Win 209 Primer
Note that the shot weights are approximate. I have adjustable charge bars in all my MEC presses and adjust the shot charge to give me the best crimp.
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Dave, you are shooting those out of an '87 though, right? The silver base gun clubs would stick in a SxS I would think.
And on your AA hulls for annual matches, I'm surprised that your load would get a good crimp since it seems like the same load I use but I use 4.3cc of powder. I do this in Remington hulls now but used to use AA's.
Mako, when I dropped my BP loads last year from 1 1/8 oz of shot to 1 oz, I started dropping a cheerio on top of the shot since the crimp would occasionally be a little concave without it and possibly leak shot. Someone on the Wire mentioned he did that, and I already eat Cheerios so I had them handy. :)
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My shot charge may be a little more than 1oz.
When I was using my MEC Grabber AA hulls wouldn’t crimp well. Always had a hole in the center. When I switched to using my 600jr. I got good crimps.
My 600jr is old enough that it has the metal crimp starter and final crimp die.
It will make crimps that look like factory crimps.
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>:( NO NO NO NO :(
NONE OF THE ABOVE. I have no capability to load plastic or paper hulls. So I load/run/shoot ALL BRASS MAGTECH.
Is that a vote of ONE??
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>:( NO NO NO NO :(
NONE OF THE ABOVE. I have no capability to load plastic or paper hulls. So I load/run/shoot ALL BRASS MAGTECH.
Is that a vote of ONE??
Yes that is a vote of one.
But I'm about to ROCK your world!
You, YES YOU only need one tool and it costs a mere $19.80, less than one pound of powder, 10 pounds of lead, 3 Starbucks coffees, and at current inflation probably one Bic Mac.
https://www.amazon.com/Tactical-Corp-12-Reloading-GA/dp/B0B6FW6JWS/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2MQ7DV414R87O&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.XWuSuB8kDBzCwoxK2_SalI-0y7FxLBCgnWdMz8O3SqKnrX8lE9_gzfMG0FvyxJowGI9sVBCPNu6wFsY_wf3HBwoYveSolDyt9jKsJ6_P7yKIPsHfU8XBK7O3LLW0rFU-Tg7y9U7obaTtxImYOwXbxztSEh6_e3Z8p98tesfJoErYzYdTqSIkq89SWz4799bt.Xe5ERs0FnJZmqFk0q6_VL5lqOuV8_dRAtUayFXyo-Gw&dib_tag=se&keywords=12%2Bgauge%2Broll%2Bcrimp%2Btool&qid=1713235165&sprefix=12%2Bguge%2Broll%2Bcri%2Caps%2C98&sr=8-3&th=1 (https://www.amazon.com/Tactical-Corp-12-Reloading-GA/dp/B0B6FW6JWS/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2MQ7DV414R87O&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.XWuSuB8kDBzCwoxK2_SalI-0y7FxLBCgnWdMz8O3SqKnrX8lE9_gzfMG0FvyxJowGI9sVBCPNu6wFsY_wf3HBwoYveSolDyt9jKsJ6_P7yKIPsHfU8XBK7O3LLW0rFU-Tg7y9U7obaTtxImYOwXbxztSEh6_e3Z8p98tesfJoErYzYdTqSIkq89SWz4799bt.Xe5ERs0FnJZmqFk0q6_VL5lqOuV8_dRAtUayFXyo-Gw&dib_tag=se&keywords=12%2Bgauge%2Broll%2Bcrimp%2Btool&qid=1713235165&sprefix=12%2Bguge%2Broll%2Bcri%2Caps%2C98&sr=8-3&th=1)
You don't need anything else other than a hand drill motor or if yer high falut'n, a drill press. You already have the means of pok'n out a primer and you can seat one the same way as you do on you brass shells. You can roll crimp once fired star crimped shells, even better you can roll crimp trimmed shells and make them 2 1/2" equivalents. Slightly shorter and easier to load with your short temper...
That's a cheap one, I have 4 different ones including that one, it actually works. You already buy fiber wads, cards, nitro cards, over shot cards, etc. You just have to buy them in 12ga now instead of 11 and 10 gauge. JOIN the 20th Century man!. Seriously the problem I have with the brass cases is loading them into the chamber. The roll crimped shells will spoil you...
Me: I want to say one word to you. Just one word.
You: Yes, sir.
Me: Are you listening?
You: Yes, I am.
Me: Plastics.
You: Exactly how do you mean?
Me: There's a great future in plastics. Think about it. Will you think about it?
~Mako
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Let's see, was that line from The Graduate? :)
The pics in that Amazon ad showed some white hulls, but I've seen some roll-crimped clear hulls and seeing the shot and powder through the hull is pretty cool. Although you do need fiber wads to see the shot.
I have an antique roll crimper that I use just occasionally, works fine, so no need for 20th century stuffe. But my method for cutting the plastic crimp off the hulls is pretty crude.
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>:( NO NO NO NO :(
NONE OF THE ABOVE. I have no capability to load plastic or paper hulls. So I load/run/shoot ALL BRASS MAGTECH.
Is that a vote of ONE??
I added your "category", sheeeeesh...
Now go vote.
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Last time I was in Baltimore I swung by the grocery store to pick up some Tastycake pies and had to pay .05 each for the 2 paper bags I needed. Baltimore County’s silliness. FYI.
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I shoot brass from Rocky Mountain Cartridge. I have a side by side, they work great. I also appreciate anything I can reload using a stick with a nail, a mallet and another stick. Use 80 grains of ffg black powder, card, wad, lead shot, and card. Usually top the card with some white glue.
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Last time I was in Baltimore I swung by the grocery store to pick up some Tastycake pies and had to pay .05 each for the 2 paper bags I needed. Baltimore County’s silliness. FYI.
Gotta pay for the Bridge some how ::)
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I shoot brass from Rocky Mountain Cartridge. I have a side by side, they work great. I also appreciate anything I can reload using a stick with a nail, a mallet and another stick. Use 80 grains of ffg black powder, card, wad, lead shot, and card. Usually top the card with some white glue.
Mogorilla,
You didn't vote, neither did Coffinmaker (one wurd). We have two Brass shell users who need to be proud of their Luddite tendencies!
I have probably a hundred brass shells, but I don't use them except for show because they hang up on loading and give weaker results without a good crimp. I saw some of them a week or two ago and thought about cleaning them up and selling them except for one box, I think 3 boxes have never been used or opened.
All in jest... but please vote above.
- Have you ever considered crimping the mouth with a tool like the RCBS die set? I don't know anyone who does that and I always wanted to ask how well that worked and whether or not the crimp "opened up".
- Do you anneal your brass if you do?
- Do your shells use 209 primers or Large Pistol?
- I'm not familiar with those shells, are they the ones turned on a lathe?
- If it doesn't ruin the shot column getting out and I might consider Brass shells again, but I would want to build the column height up to actually use the crimp to contain the load and build pressure.
- I'll bet you get lower velocities with 80 grains that we can get out of a plastic wad or fiber wad in a star crimped or roll crimped plastic hull with 40-50 grains. I don't need more fire or smoke I already use Fg just for that.
- My experience with Brass hulls is that about half of the powder is ejected out the front with less flame and a lot of unburned powder lying on the ground.
- I've tried all kinds of glues and even got some water (sodium silicate) since I was told that was the answer. I didn't notice better result than a wood glue or Duco cement.
Maybe I'll add Brass shells to my list of things to try again.
~Mako
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Since I already voted, it won't let me vote again for brass shells. But I also don't use them very often these days, partially because they slow me down on loading into the SxS (no crimp), and they don't always eject as well. I know some of that is the old Rem-UMC hulls needing to be annealed, because even though they go in round, the mouth is a bit out of round after firing. However, Mako (with one dorsal) I have not had any problems with lack of oomph out of my brass loads.
But I do still like shooting the all brass at times. My reloading has been split between two locations with limited time for a while now, but that is changing as I get things consolidated and moved over the next year, so hopefully will get some more brass loading done. I've also got a lot of Alcan brass hulls, which are thicker than the REM-UMC / Winchester / Magtech but not as thick as RMC. They use a Remington 57-style primer (I think that's it) that looks like a 209 but is smaller. Fortunately I have a couple thousand of those. One problem I have with those is that a lot of them 2.5" but some are different lengths up to about 2.75". When firing them, I have to pay attention that I'm shooting the longest ones first, followed by shorter, or they will stick in the chamber from prior fouling. They need to be all trimmed to 2.5" but I have no way to do that.
Mako, yes the RMC hulls are the machined ones with the same internal dimensions as a plastic hull and use 209's. They're still around, last I looked those were about $8 each. I have a half dozen of them but don't use them much any more because the primer pockets are so tight that priming and depriming are both very difficult.
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I too voted prior to brass being an option. The RMC are stout and I bought 10 eons ago (less than $4 a piece). They take the 209s well.
I have an oddish loading.
Drive spent primer out with dowel, fitted with blunt nail. It is a 5/8 dowel and taps the spent primer out easily. Next, thumb seat 209 primer (after cleaning of course) and use a 2nd dowel that is dished to seat with just another tap. Pour in 80 grains of ffg, through a 24 inch drop tube. Place card stock over and seat with dowel. Add fiber wad, seat with dowel. Using the 80 grain measure (I made it from a plastic tube), measure and pour in #7 lead shot. top with a card stock and seat. Then run a bead of elmers white glue around the edge to seal.
I do the same with plastic hulls that have had the crimp portion cut off.
I will say, I have never patterned them. We do not shoot a lot of shotgun in NCOWS, but we do a texas star with shotgun, rifle and pistol. with the brass shells, it is the one of the 3 I will take all five targets out with.
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OKAY...
I had to redo the poll, everyone vote again.
I couldn't add the option to change your vote or the number of times to the original poll. We are still locked into only two votes. I'm sorry, but it complicates the wad selection. So, do your best and muddle through it please.
So you have two votes, use one for hull type(s) and the second for wads. You now have the option of going back and changing your vote if you realize there was a better option for you. And if I add more categories later because someone points out I missed something you can go back and change your vote now.
The main purpose of the poll and the thread is to instigate discussion, secondarily it allows me to see what the community has chosen to use. We are an outlier bunch by our very natures so we will not be anything like other scattergun users. I for one like a shot cup just to keep the shot pattern tight so I even use a cup on top of a wad column in brass shells. We are aiming at targets at very close ranges and our pattern is ideally about the size of a softball. I want every pellet on the plate.
I attached what the poll count looked like below before I redid the poll to answer the conundrum Coffinmaker (one wurd), Abilene and Mogorilla found themselves in as to an answer about shell types.
~Mako
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Awrightie!! I been shamed. Shamed I tell ya!! But Never Surrender (Stolen Semi-Famous Movie Line) Marching onward!! Challenge ACCEPTED!! I went back to da TOP and voted I did. So There. TAKE THAT!! Ha !!!!!!
My recipe is (NO, not for cake) started with a nice Magtech Hull. Prime it. Use any Large Pistol Primer, just make sure it seats fully. I use a press. Flip it over (very important). Dump in 40Gr APP 2F. Yea, that's right, APP, stuff works a treat. Poke in a BP SPITFIRE plastic (at'z right you heathens, "Plastic") wad for a one ounce pay load. I use to use fiber wads but they blew a gaping hole inna middle of da pattern. Found a "shot cup" of some sort is super beneficial. I also use to use a BP 1044 wad but got tired of cutting the petals for a one ounce payload. Then dump in one ounce of shot, new or used dudden matter. Shove in TWO over shot cards, seated with a three quarter inch stick. NO CRIMP!! Done. Any popper fair hit goes down. For maximum Oohs and Aahs, must be shot thru a Hammer Double, none of that non-cowboy pump handle stuff atall. So there it be!! TA DA!!
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Coffinmaker (one wurd),
So you admit to dabbling on the "wild side" your vote includes PLASTIC hulls. Interesting, what other habits do you have?
~Mako
PS- I don't slit my shot cups when I use them in a Brass hull, the shot and wad probably hit as almost a clump. I have a bag of BP12 un-slit wads actually meant for non lead loads and a bag of TPS-12 wads (no compression section and used to be called something else).
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Butt Butt wait!! Da new poll gotz no boxes to putt da X in?? :P
NO NO NO!! Plastic "WADs". Just plastic WADs. Da wad includes the ever necessary Shot Cup. All Brass Hulls ONLY
Coffinmaker (one wurd)
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No boxes to check?? I can't see that because I am the creator. I hope I didn't mess it all up.
SO, change your hull vote to the category in your honor.
Let me know if it still isn't allowing you to change.
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Nope. No Presto Changeo. Boo Hissssssssss.
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Okay, I changed my votes, since I use both plastic and brass. But on wads, I checked both plastic and nitro, etc cards because that's what I use in all brass. Plastic hulls get plastic wad only.
Now for the question, I've never heard of reifenhauser hulls. What common hulls would be an example?
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Yo Coffinmaker, will this work?
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:) DEACON ;)
You Betcha Red Ryder!! Most KOOL indeede ;D My Kinda Shotgun it are 8)
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Okay, I changed my votes, since I use both plastic and brass. But on wads, I checked both plastic and nitro, etc cards because that's what I use in all brass. Plastic hulls get plastic wad only.
Now for the question, I've never heard of reifenhauser hulls. What common hulls would be an example?
Abilene,
Your primary preference for a plastic Hull is not a Reifenhauser style shell, you use a one piece compression formed or unibody Hull.. Those include the Rem STS and Nitro Hulls, the Peters Blue Magics (i still have a large bag of those from over 30 years ago), Win AA hulls, not the newer AA-HS and the Federal HOA shells. There may be a few others and the Federal Gold Medal used to be but it has changed. People are now hoarding the One Piece Win AAs like I do the Peters Blue Magics.
In the second photo below the old Federal Gold Medal Compression hull is flanked on either side by two different kinds of Reifenhauser two piece hulls.
(https://i.imgur.com/nuJ7XrQ.jpeg) (https://i.imgur.com/2YJkOa0.jpeg) (https://i.imgur.com/ED1ezgl.jpeg)
A Reifenhauser style is named after the company that developed the extrusion process maybe 70 years ago to make extruded tubes strong enough and heat resistant enough to make shell bodies out of. Almost every shell I didn't list above is a Reifenhauser style and that arguably includes the newer Win AA-HS hulls (but Winchester wants to act like they are a "one piece" equivalent). If you look down into the shell if there is a separate base wad whether compressed paper or plastic then it is a Reifenhauser style. Those shells are described as "two piece" which is confusing because they are actually three piece if you count the metal base. Technically the unibody shells are "two piece" because they have a metal base.
(https://i.imgur.com/uI1loT8.png)
Most but not all Unibody hulls have a tapered interior, they get thicker towards the base, so they require a wad that gets a bit smaller at the base. You can use the red WAA12 wads in your Rem Nitros as well as the Win AAs. Actually Winchester made the Win AA-HS mimic the tapered shape so you can use that wad in the AA-HS even though it is a two piece plastic hull.
These are the new AA-HS hulls: (https://i.imgur.com/8qEbskL.jpeg) Note the "taper" type of bases.
Paper Hulls are actually very strong and they resist the heat, but they wear out faster than a unibody shell. The Win AA, the Rem STS/Nitro and the Blue Magic hulls all have a tapered compression formed base and will last until you literally melt them. As you know Real Powder burns a lot hotter than the smokiless powders.
Reifenhauser hulls with flat base wads normally have more room for powder and they will accept a larger variety of wads and often work better with fiber wads. Your Nitro Card will fit deeper if you are using a load like 40-60gr of BP. If you use a full 3 Dram equivalent (80gr BP) then you will probably be above the tapered area in a Compression Formed Hull enough that the Nitro Card will fit well.
Does that help?
~Mako
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Thanks for the explanation, Mako, and I knew some of that stuff but not that name. However, the pictures did not show up for me. And when I tell one to open in a new tab, I get a message from https://live.staticflickr.com... that says "These aren't the droids you're looking for."
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Thanks Mako; that was informative.
FYI I can see the pictures on both my Android and my PC.
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Hmm, so I checked again this morning, and the pictures did not show up here nor on my Android phone. Then one minute later, they show up on both. Weird. But now I see them!
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The Photos are still just boxes (outlined) with a question mark inna middle. Same Same on my iPhone as on my MAC. :o
I must also say thank you for the information, as I am/was ignorant of all of that shotgun hull information. Of course, that is because I have never had the equipment nor the inclination (off center) to reload Paper or Plastic hulls. Strictly All Brass hulls, which, near as I can tell, never wear out (unless some ham hock steps on one).
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OKAY cowboys and Coffinmakers (one wurd),
Look at the post above (with the pictures) now, I'm trying a different image hosting site and thy also allow a a larger image.
Tell if it works for everyone.
~Mako
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...Strictly All Brass hulls, which, near as I can tell, never wear out (unless some ham hock steps on one).
Yep! When I bought my Rem-UMC hulls years ago before Magtechs were around, a few at a time here and there (mostly $2 each on ebay), I have no idea how many times they had been previously reloaded. But I have reloaded them at least 50 times each since then. One hull had a tiny split at the top in the beginning that I ignored. One more hull developed a tiny split at the top. Yeah, you gets your moneys worth outa dem der shells, youbetcha! (famous Coffinmaker word).
Mako, to correct my earlier statement, the pics started showing up on my laptop, but not on the Android. But now, they show up on both and yes they are bigger.
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Abilene,
I aim to please my friend...
Now Coffinmaker(one wurd) is another matter, I'm not sure what would make him happy. ;D
The ability to embed larger photos helps in the way I commonly post. Not only do "I wax elephant..." and tend towards the verbose, but I like pictures, they're purty. In a former life we used coloring books a lot and the habit stays with you, I even learned not to eat them (the crayons that is).
~Mako
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Okay, this is slightly related I guess. In 2022 I bought several boxes of commercial BP-sub shotshells from a shooter getting out of the game for health reasons. It was made by Ammo Direct and used Pinnacle in paper hulls with an ounce of shot. I expect this ammo was a dozen or more years old at the time. I tried it out at a monthly match. It shot okay, smoked, and took down the targets. Seemed a little hot, compared to my BP shells. Buy OH MY! The shells disintegrated! See top pic. On the first two, the hulls stuck in the chambers and the extractor pulled out past the heads (I think they flexed). It was a pain to get them out of the chamber. Next two shots, the extractor pulled the heads off the hulls, and I had to put my finger inside the empty hulls to pull them out of the chamber. It was a VERY slow stage!
In the second pic, you can see the wad they used compared to a red wad. Looks to me like their wad was too long, which compressed the Pinnacle (made by APP) which isn't supposed to be compressed. It was like a rock and had to be chipped out of the hull with an ice pick. Of course just being old might have made it hard as well.
My theory is just that the chemicals in that BP sub (is ascorbic acid one?) reacted with the paper over time. Anyway, a few months ago I wanted to try something, so I emptied out a few of the hulls and reloaded with BP and roll crimped. I figured if this worked I could reload them all, even though it was a bit of a hassle to disassemble. Well, they looked okay as you can see, but they still disintegrated, so the damage had already been done to the paper. (didn't take another picture, but they split just like the first ones). I might reclaim the shot out of them, anyway.
Oh yeah, the way this is related is that Mako needs to re-do his poll again to add paper hulls. :)
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Oh yeah, the way this is related is that Mako needs to re-do his poll again to add paper hulls. :)
ARRRRGH!!!!
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Our chief objects of discussion are Shotgun Shells, there are 3 types! Reifenhauser, Unibodies and Brass! ARRRRRGH!!!!!
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!
THERE ARE FOUR!
There are four types, Reifenhauser, Unibodies, Brass and Paper....
~Mako
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:) WELL !! ;)
I for one, am completely satisfied. Spanish Inquisition not withstanding. I am completely happy. The pretty pictures now show up just fine. I like the Pretty Pictures MAKO posts. I have also been a fan of the Pretty technicolor CAD drawings MAKO posts. Especial since I have never been able to post pictures on this site.
Seeing the hulls in actual cross section also explains what "others" have described about certain Shotgun Hulls and why they say they may not be as good as they once were. Although again, seeing the actual hulls in stunning technicolor, cross sectioned explains a bunch. And to me, would indicate some of those who whine about the newer hulls, really have nothing to complain about. After all, the rounds still go BANG, the poppers go down (or the clays bust) and the hull can be reloaded numerous times, unless loading with Black. Brass Hulls, of course go "To Infinity And Beyond" (stolen famous movie line).
I do admit however, I have acquired an amount of once fired AA hulls for a project, and as soon as I can figure an efficient way to cut 'em down to Two and a Half inches, I'm gonna begin that project. It's just for Funzies, not a long term replacement for my favor'd Brass Hulls to be understood. Diet Coke SUX