Author Topic: .44 American  (Read 2559 times)

Offline ndnchf

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Re: .44 American
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2021, 06:57:57 AM »
Dredging up this old thread because I was loading some .44 S&W American for my #2 rolling block.  I mentioned earlier that I use Lyman/Ideal 427098 bullets (the classic .44-40 bullet) by turning a heel on them with the lathe.  I had to make more the other day, so I made a short video showing how easy it is to do. This bullet is on the right, next to an Old West Molds bullet.




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Offline Major 2

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Re: .44 American
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2021, 10:11:26 AM »
Buffalo Arms be right proud of their 44 American.  Of course, since it is a obsolete cartridge with a very small market base, and limited production cost is higher, probably not all that bad.  I'd personally substitute 44 Russian (already do) which is readily available and a whole LOT more frugal (Cheaper).

Stay Safe

Buffalo is right proud of all their brass Etc. , I went to them for 41 Swiss brass ,course "if" you're the only-ist supplier of formed  CF 41 Swiss, " It " stands as the only game ?  ya pay's to play  :)

But on the flip side , I'm quite flush in 44 Russian - 700 new Starline  came in the deal with this
when planets align...do the deal !

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Re: .44 American
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2021, 05:09:04 PM »
Dredging up this old thread because I was loading some .44 S&W American for my #2 rolling block.  I mentioned earlier that I use Lyman/Ideal 427098 bullets (the classic .44-40 bullet) by turning a heel on them with the lathe. .....


Ah My Good Sir

You make me feel almost normal!
Here I thought I was the only person crazy enough to be turning lead bullets on a lathe!

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Offline ndnchf

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Re: .44 American
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2021, 05:55:45 PM »
Well professor, as they say "necessity is the mother of invention"  ;D
"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

Offline Drydock

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Civilize them with a Krag . . .

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Re: .44 American
« Reply #25 on: Today at 05:56:31 PM »

Offline ndnchf

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Re: .44 American
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2021, 05:28:08 AM »
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=44-220A

That's a nice looking mold. I've been thinking lately of a bullet with two lube grooves for more capacity in my rifle length barrel. The dip lubeing shown earlier provides plenty of lube, but almost too much.
"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

Offline Drydock

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Re: .44 American
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2021, 06:52:08 PM »
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-310B

Take this one, have Tom remove the bottom band and groove to leave a standard heel, Set the diameters as you wish for the upper part of the bullet.  End up around .80 long.  Would it be too long for your rate of twist?  Tom will make anything you want if you can describe it well

Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline ndnchf

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Re: .44 American
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2021, 08:52:51 AM »
Drydock - thanks, that could work. But I need to be careful not only of the weight, but how far out the first driving band is. I don't want to shorten the case any in order to seat the cartridge. Powder capacity now is about 23gr of Old E 3F, compressed. The original balloon head capacity was 25gr. I need to go back and get some good chamber measurements.
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Offline Drydock

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Re: .44 American
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2021, 09:28:58 AM »
Make the upper bands bore diameter.  You'ld want to do that for easy chambering anyways.  You can make these bands any diameter you want.  Most heel base RIFLE bullets with multiple exposed lube grooves run bore diameter bodies with only the base band at groove diameter.  You pretty much have to do this with most of the bullet outside of the case.  The bullet I'm using here is the italian Vetterli design, I use this mold in my Vetterli's with excellent accurracy. 

I would also say though, that burning only 23 grains of powder, a single good lube groove like the 220a would probably work just fine. 
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline ndnchf

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Re: .44 American
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2021, 10:29:45 AM »
Good point about making the upper bands bore riding. Here are the three bullets I've been using so far. L-R heel turned 427098, old West Molds .44 S&W American and BACO's .44 S&W American.

"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

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Re: .44 American
« Reply #30 on: Today at 05:56:31 PM »

Offline Drydock

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Re: .44 American
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2021, 02:09:00 PM »
All fine molds.  Whyever did you start cutting heels on the old 427098s?   ???
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline ndnchf

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Re: .44 American
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2021, 02:55:53 PM »
All fine molds.  Whyever did you start cutting heels on the old 427098s?   ???

Just because I like to experiment , LOL!

I had 427098s on hand. When waiting for the BACO bullets to arrive I figured why not give it a try. A little later I ordered the Ol West mold. All 3 shoot well, but I do believe the 427098s have a slight edge.

I've done the same thing to make bullets for 32 rimfire and 32 Ballard XL. It's just a cheap and easy way to make heel bullets  ;D

Here is another video I made about making the 32 heel bullets.

"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

Offline AntiqueSledMan

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Re: .44 American
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2021, 04:25:48 AM »
Great Video's Steve,

Here's what I did for my 44 Colt.
I took the LEE 450-200-1R, the 200gr Black Powder bullet.
Then I swagged a heel on it with my little two piece die on an arbor press.
Gives me a 0.428" heel at whatever depth I set it at.
Down fall is it's a set diameter.
Plus is no cutting of lead bullet.

AntiqueSledMan.

Offline ndnchf

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Re: .44 American
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2021, 07:03:34 AM »
The ingenuity of old gun nuts always amazes me  :)
"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

Offline ndnchf

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Re: .44 American
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2021, 10:21:15 AM »
Browsing the Accurate Molds catalog for ideas for a slightly heavier bullet for my rifle, I see a number of heel molds that have a lube groove in the heel, rather than outside.  Here are a couple examples:

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=44-230H


http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=44-250H

I don't know if this is a modern innovation or if this design dates back to the 19th century. Perhaps it was an evolutionary step along the way?  I'm wondering how effective this would be. Assuming a soft alloy, the heel should expand into the grooves. But I have no experience with this design. Has anyone else ?   What do you guys think?
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Offline Drydock

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Re: .44 American
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2021, 12:03:16 PM »
Several 19th century designs used something like this.  Both the Swiss and Italian Vetterli bullets did this.  Basicly a bore riding tail.  I  would think combustion pressure would help evacuate lube from the groove and mix it with fouling as its generated.  But its going to cost you powder capacity in a small case.
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Offline ndnchf

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Re: .44 American
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2021, 12:28:13 PM »
Good point about losing powder capacity. These heels are much longer than the normal .150" of a .44S&W American bullet. 
"We're all travelers in this world.  From the sweet grass to the packing house, birth till death, we travel between the eternities"  Prentiss Ritter, Broken Trail

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Re: .44 American
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2021, 04:29:56 PM »
Accurate 44-230H was designed for the .44 Evans Long but should work in .44 American, although there is the powder capacity issue Drydock mentions--you would be limited to lighter loads.

Accurate 44-210M is similar, but a lighter bullet and you would have the same case capacity issue in a .44 American, although you should be able to get a little bit more velocity on account of the lighter bullet.  44-210M was designed for the .44 Merwin Hulbert (long), which is about the same case as .44 Special, except the MH case is dimensioned for a heeled bullet.  With the longer case powder capacity is not an issue.

--DJ

Offline ndnchf

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Re: .44 American
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2021, 04:45:23 PM »
Both the Old West and BACO .44 S&W American bullets are about 218gr. The heel cut 427098 is about 208gr. So there is really nothing to be gained with another bullet of similar weight. I don't know if a heavier bullet would gain me anything either. Just speculating at this point.
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Offline Abilene

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Re: .44 American
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2021, 05:50:43 PM »
Regarding availability of the gun...
Someone mentioned on the Colt clone forum that they just got a Cimarron Cavalry from Midway USA.  I checked their stock, and they do have a very small selection of guns in stock.  Including: the American in 45 Colt.  And the price is $999 with free shipping, which seems decent to me.  With guns as hard as they are to find these days, thought I'd mention it in case someone is looking for one.

 

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