Author Topic: S&W Mod. 3 substituting modern .44 special for old .44 russian ?  (Read 5323 times)

Offline blackpowder

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Hi Everyone,

I recently acquired a S&W Model 3 Russian made by Uberti in Italy. A very solid and good quality weapon working flawlessly and reliably right out of the box (something that cannot be said for Uberti's blackpowder clones - they always seem to need more or less fitting to work smoothly). It also shoots to POA and to my surprise, all I had to do was clean off the generous amounts of preservation oil that they bathe their guns in before boxing and shipping.

The only drawback is the price of the ammo. As far as I know, only the Italian Co. Fiocchi makes .44 Russian and they are quite pricey. So I bought one box of 50 for the shells and reload them. Recently, however, I heard from at least one Person that you can shoot .44 Special cartridges without any problems. Checking the cartridge specs they are exactly identical except for case length - the .44 Spl has a slightly longer case.

Are there any comments on this and/or has anyone actually substituted one for the other? Does the .44Spl work in the Model 3 Russian?

Thanks for inputs  :)

"A horse is a horse, it ain't make a difference what color it is" -  John Wayne

Offline Abilene

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Re: S&W Mod. 3 substituting modern .44 special for old .44 russian ?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2021, 12:19:59 PM »
The Russian also comes chambered in 45 Colt, so it would have no problem with the power of the 44 Spcl, however I don't know that the special will chamber.  If you have some 44 Spcls, see if they will completely chamber in the cylinder.  If so, you are good to go.  Otherwise, you will have to stick with the Russians.  Black Hills sells 44 Russian also (and also pricey), and I think there may be others.  Starline sells the brass.

Offline Dave T

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Re: S&W Mod. 3 substituting modern .44 special for old .44 russian ?
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2021, 02:09:41 PM »
I heard from at least one Person that you can shoot .44 Special cartridges without any problems.

Your source of opinion on this had it backwards. One can shoot 44 Russian ammunition in a 44 Special, much like one can shoot 44 Special ammunition in a 44 Magnum...or for that matter the 38 Special in a 357 Magnum. The shorter, parent case will work in the longer chamber. The reverse is not true.

If you try to force a 44 Special cartridge is the too short chamber of a 44 Russian revolver you could encounter excess pressure when the tight throat of the chamber restricts the too long case from releasing the bullet.

Even if you can chamber a 44 Special in your Russian I would advise against the practice.

YMMV,
Dave

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Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: S&W Mod. 3 substituting modern .44 special for old .44 russian ?
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2021, 07:39:12 PM »

 :)  PLUS ONE for Dave T   ;)

I second, your "one person" has it quite 'up-side-down."  Or "Backwards" as it twer.  It the chamber is actually "44 Russian" a 44 Special case is a NO-GO.  Other way around is just fine and even recommended.  Running 44 Russian in 44 Special chambers is an excellent method to reduce case volume for reduced charge.  Or even loading BP and Subs for a little less oompah without resorting to fillers.

When testing your chambers, use only very light pressure when attempting to seat 44 Special cases and only test fit empty cases that DO NOT have a crimp.  I have had several Uberti guns (Open Tops) in my shop, marked 44 Colt that chambers 44 Special without problem.  In fact one set of Open Tops I owned were market 44 Colt and would chamber 44 Special.  My current Chameleon Open Top set has 44 barrels that are marked 44-40.  Uberti never made Open Tops in 44-40.  Strange stuff comes out of Uberti from time to time.

Stay Safe Out There 

Offline Abilene

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Re: S&W Mod. 3 substituting modern .44 special for old .44 russian ?
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2021, 08:03:01 PM »
Since the Russian is not sold in 44 Spcl, to my knowledge, I doubt that Uberti bored the cylinder deep enough to chamber the Special, but they might have.  In the case of Opentops and conversions, Uberti sold them chambered for 44 Russian only (some early ones, and so marked), 44 Colt, and 44 Special.  Customers tended to want the guns to be marked 44 Colt or Russian because it sounded more old timey.  So finally Uberti finally just started making all the cylinders 44 Special to simplify it, no matter which marking was on the barrel.  And later they just marking them all 44 Spcl to simplify things.  Howsomever, the Russian topbreak is a different animal.  I still say if the gun will chamber them, meaning any 44 Spcl including an empty case, it will be perfectly fine to shoot.

Offline blackpowder

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Re: S&W Mod. 3 substituting modern .44 special for old .44 russian ?
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2021, 01:18:14 AM »
Since the Russian is not sold in 44 Spcl, to my knowledge, I doubt that Uberti bored the cylinder deep enough to chamber the Special, but they might have.  In the case of Opentops and conversions, Uberti sold them chambered for 44 Russian only (some early ones, and so marked), 44 Colt, and 44 Special.  Customers tended to want the guns to be marked 44 Colt or Russian because it sounded more old timey.  So finally Uberti finally just started making all the cylinders 44 Special to simplify it, no matter which marking was on the barrel.  And later they just marking them all 44 Spcl to simplify things.  Howsomever, the Russian topbreak is a different animal.  I still say if the gun will chamber them, meaning any 44 Spcl including an empty case, it will be perfectly fine to shoot.
The gun is a current 2020 Uberti production of the S&W Russian Mod.3 topbreak. I think If it chambers an empty .44 Spcl case, which would be at max length after being fired, it should be ok. If not, one could shorten the significantly cheaper .44spcl brass a bit and handload to modern .44spcl standards. New Ubertis are made with modern steel and should withstand the higher pressures of modern ammo.
"A horse is a horse, it ain't make a difference what color it is" -  John Wayne

Offline Blair

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Re: S&W Mod. 3 substituting modern .44 special for old .44 russian ?
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2021, 06:10:32 AM »
blackpowder,

I would suggest cutting the cases (.44 Special and/or .44 Mag.) down to .44 Russian case length.
You will then be sure you will have no problems as has been mentioned above.
I hope this helps?

 My best,
Blair
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Offline Drydock

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Re: S&W Mod. 3 substituting modern .44 special for old .44 russian ?
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2021, 09:35:08 AM »
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/526?

If you're gonna handload anyway, just get the brass.  I have a Uberti #3 marked for Russian, and Special brass will not fit.  Starline prices their Russian brass and Special brass the same.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Dave T

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Re: S&W Mod. 3 substituting modern .44 special for old .44 russian ?
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2021, 09:50:14 AM »
...one could shorten the significantly cheaper .44spcl brass a bit and handload to modern .44spcl standards.

If you want 44 Special performance then buy a 44 Special handgun. Don't try to make a 44 Russian into a 44 Special by over loading it. The shorter case loaded "to modern .44 Special standards" is problematical to say the least.

Dave

Offline Major 2

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Re: S&W Mod. 3 substituting modern .44 special for old .44 russian ?
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2021, 10:17:52 AM »
If you want 44 Special performance then buy a 44 Special handgun. Don't try to make a 44 Russian into a 44 Special by over loading it. The shorter case loaded "to modern .44 Special standards" is problematical to say the least.

Dave

That makes the most sense , saves the time , labor if they have it in stock.


I acquired 700 pieces of new Starline and 500 255 grain BP lubed bullets  when I bought my original 2nd model Russian.

 
when planets align...do the deal !

Offline blackpowder

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Re: S&W Mod. 3 substituting modern .44 special for old .44 russian ?
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2021, 11:15:56 AM »
If you want 44 Special performance then buy a 44 Special handgun.
Absolutely right ! But I'm not looking to get .44 Spcl performance. I am handloading to .44 Russian specs. I am just looking for reasonably priced brass. In fact, a friend of mine can give me a shoebox filled with .44 Spcl brass for next to nothing. That's why I am wondering if I can/should use them to make cartridges for my mod. 3 Russian. 
"A horse is a horse, it ain't make a difference what color it is" -  John Wayne

Offline Drydock

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Re: S&W Mod. 3 substituting modern .44 special for old .44 russian ?
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2021, 12:08:41 PM »
Ah, now we see.  Yes, get the brass, then cut it down to Russian spec.  You will be fine. 
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Blair

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Re: S&W Mod. 3 substituting modern .44 special for old .44 russian ?
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2021, 01:48:51 PM »
blackpoweder,

That is what I thought you were asking about in your Original Posting... which is why I suggested just cutting down the cases.
 Fired Special and Mag. cases can be found at good prices, I have used them for years, and can be loaded with BP for use in original S&W's.

My best,
 Blair
A Time for Prayer.
"In times of war and not before,
God and the soldier we adore.
But in times of peace and all things right,
God is forgotten and the soldier slighted"
by Rudyard Kipling.
Blair Taylor
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Offline blackpowder

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Re: S&W Mod. 3 substituting modern .44 special for old .44 russian ?
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2021, 02:01:07 PM »
@Blair,

Right. I will measure my chamber length and resize the .44Spcl cases as necessary.  :)
"A horse is a horse, it ain't make a difference what color it is" -  John Wayne

Offline Abilene

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Re: S&W Mod. 3 substituting modern .44 special for old .44 russian ?
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2021, 02:06:28 PM »
Cutting down special cases all the way to Russian size is likely to have a thicker case wall at the case mouth.  Russian brass is not that expensive.

Offline Drydock

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Re: S&W Mod. 3 substituting modern .44 special for old .44 russian ?
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2021, 02:09:19 PM »
1.16 to .97 I doubt  he'll see much if any difference.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline U.S.M.R.

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Re: S&W Mod. 3 substituting modern .44 special for old .44 russian ?
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2021, 02:57:20 PM »
I was always under  the impression that the special was loaded to the same velocity as the Russian. The case was longer to accommodate smokeless powder. My Uberti Russian is chambered for the Special even though it’s marked .44 Russian.

Offline Drydock

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Re: S&W Mod. 3 substituting modern .44 special for old .44 russian ?
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2021, 06:04:04 PM »
This is true to a point as far as performance.  The case was longer to keep the specials from being loaded in the old top break Russians, as the pressure curve for smokeless is radically different from that of BP. 
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline blackpowder

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Re: S&W Mod. 3 substituting modern .44 special for old .44 russian ?
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2021, 11:19:04 PM »
....My Uberti Russian is chambered for the Special even though it’s marked .44 Russian.
You may have hit on a very interesting point here. Perhaps the guy who claimed to shoot regular factory .44Spcl ammo out of his No. 3 Russian, had just that - a Russian chambered in .44Spcl.....
"A horse is a horse, it ain't make a difference what color it is" -  John Wayne

Offline Abilene

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Re: S&W Mod. 3 substituting modern .44 special for old .44 russian ?
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2021, 11:34:33 PM »
Well there you go.  Uberti wouldn't have chambered it for the Special if they didn't want it to be used.

 

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