44-40 brass?

[Bryan Austin]

If you use the Lee dies, you need to use their 44 mag/spcl powder thru die to open the mouth enough, if you are are using .429 bullets

Yes, but then folks are just over working the brass

[Black River Smith]

To all you 'two step' must do believers.  You are 'essentially' saying that all the Winchester, Marlin, Ideal (&310) - tong tools - destroyed or had issues creating a usable reloaded cartridge.  Is that 'correct' for the most part?  Or are you all implying that through all the years, not one of the manufactures (Lee, Lyman, RCBS, Redding, CH, Herter, Hornaday, Pacific, etc.) have ever created an adequate set of dies to do the job. At least not until Lee, created the Factory crimp dies?

Wrong!

I have made just about every CAS fired BP 44/40 cartridge, since 1994, for both rifle and pistol, in a Winchester tong tool and maybe a few were lost.  All cases fit.

Maybe, you are doing something wrong with standard dies sets.

Yes, I have Lee factory crimps but mainly for smokeless large rifle calibers.

Editted

[Dave T]

I learned a trick back when I first shot BP Cartridge and https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?action=pm;sa=sendit still works just as well as it did 25 years ago.

I went to the hardware store and got a thick washer with about a 1" opening. I set it on top of the press and screw the seating die down until it's tight. That means the pre-set crimp shoulder has been moved up enough to not contact the neck of the case. I screw the seating stem down to the correct position and seat bullets to the correct depth.

I then unscrew the die, remove the washer, and back out the seating stem. Screw the die back in all the way. It now crimps the loaded rounds like a separate crimping die, without the expense of buying a special crimp die. I do this with both the 45 Colt and the 44 WCF.

YMMV,
Dave

[Advertising]

[Bryan Austin]

To all you 'two step' must do believers.  You are 'essentially' saying that all the Winchester, Marlin, Ideal (&310) - tong tools - destroyed or had issues creating a usable reloaded cartridge.  Is that 'correct' for the most part?  Or are you all implying that through all the years, not one of the manufactures (Lee, Lyman, RCBS, Redding, CH, Herter, Hornaday, Pacific, etc.) have ever created an adequate set of dies to do the job. At least not until Lee, created the Factory crimp dies?

Wrong!

I have made just about every CAS fired BP 44/40 cartridge, since 1994, for both rifle and pistol, in a Winchester tong tool and maybe a few were lost.  All cases fit.

Maybe, you are doing something wrong with standard dies sets.

Yes, I have Lee factory crimps but mainly for smokeless large rifle calibers.

Editted

Same here, only a small handfull because I failed to do something I should have. After thousands and thousands of reloads....only maybe 6

[Abilene]

So what I need is a progressive Winchester tong tool press!   

[Black River Smith]

I am new to BPCR and CAS stuff but a long time muzzleloader, and I am working on getting put together to start reloading so.e black powder 44-40 but I am not sure where to start with brass. I know Starline is pretty much the standard, however I have a line on a quantity of Remington RP brass at a good price, my question is which case has the greater capacity. I understand I won't likely be able to get a full 40gns in there but I'd like to get as close as I can.

Thank you in advance for sharing your knowledge and experience with a greenhorn.

Please re-read the OP comments again.  1st - Brand new to reloading cartridges.  Do you start someone off on a progressive press?  Only if he is going to shoot a lot or wants to blow a ~$1000 on equipment.  He is new to CAS. He has probably minimal knowledge of reloading in general (no offense to Original Poster)   2nd - He wants to load BP.  How many Progressive Presses have BP rated dispensers?  I do not know the answer because I never owned one and I still shot CAS for 20 years. Loading several caliber with BP on single stage presses.  3rd - His main question is about what brass to use.  Why put all the fears about any successful reloading, out there, before the person even starts?  He needs to read and learn then ask more questions and learn some more.

Yes there are some very helpful accessories to make reloading easier and simpler.  But anyone with patience and a desire to safely reload, can get the job done, with a press; set of dies; proper powder; proper dispensers for powder, attention to details and most of all knowledge, to work every step needed to get to the finished and fired end result.  Then you can add any extras from there that is desired to increase your volume of production and simplify some steps.

BP 44/40's can be successfully reloaded with the basic tools, is my general point to the OP, with patience and knowledge.

[Dirty Dick]

   Were anyone so foolish as to ask my opinion  , as someone with 65 years reloading experience with everything from Lyman 310 tool to Dillon RL1050s my advice would be a Dillon RL550B. Yes, even to learn on! Load one brass at a time through all 4 die stations, then do another. With BP use the powder measure ONLY to expand and flare the case mouth, remove the case and use a dipper for the powder, back in the press, seat the bullet and crimp. As his knowledge of reloading increases so will his proficiency. Like using a single stage press without all the die changes!

As for .44-40 brass I use any brand I can find. Yes, Starline is probably the best, have not had even one with a split case mouth yet.

It sounds to me that the OP wants the authentic .44-40 experience, black powder and all. The most important thing to remember is to buy quality equipment, you deserve the best.

My $.02

[LeftyLarry]

If you use the Lee dies, you need to use their 44 mag/spcl powder thru die to open the mouth enough, if you are are using .429 bullets

That's a good idea, I was planning on running .430 sized bullets thrown from an Accrate Mold 43-405C so we'll see how things fare but I was planning on finding a larger expander

[Abilene]

That's a good idea, I was planning on running .430 sized bullets thrown from an Accrate Mold 43-405C so we'll see how things fare but I was planning on finding a larger expander

If you were planning to use .430 bullets in an Uberti tight .44-40 chamber I would say good luck!  But I haven't heard much about Miroku .44 chambers.  You still may need to use the thinnest brass (Winchester, Starline).  Let us know how it goes.   

[Cliff Fendley]

I've ran lots of .430 bullets through Uberti rifles, even a couple old ones that have .427 bores.

[Cliff Fendley]

RCBS cowboy dies and I can load .427-.430 bullets in Starline or Winchester brass. Have not found the need to use a 44 mag expander. I flare my cases the bare minimum necessary anyway not to overwork the brass. Just loaded some 800+ rounds of my wifes ammo and this batch of Starline cases she is using is on the 9th loading and I don't recall when I ever saw a split case using Starline brass. I think the trick is don't over work it.

[David Battersby]

I've ran lots of .430 bullets through Uberti rifles, even a couple old ones that have .427 bores.

I shoot .4305 bullets in my Uberti 1873 Winchester with Starline brass.....no problems.

[Rangerider]

Afternoon Guys, John from OZ here .  I've been loading 44/40 since time began-1975 actually. And see all the trouble people seem to have reloading them? and I'm not quite  sure why ? So I thought it's time to for me to put my two cents worth in ? This is just my experience nothing else ? for what its worth. I use one of Dick's BIG LUBE moulds for black, and hard cast for cass normally 428,429, 430. Guns 2 71/2''rugers. 2 Ubertie cattleman, Ubertie 66, Rossie 94 and more nothing but 44/40. Before anyone has a go at me I have also crushed cases over the years, I mainly use star line brass. But most of the time it has been my fault. I find them a grate round to load and never use anything else. (With a little care) But I agree with Dirty Dick four stages on a Dillon 55b is the way to go that's all I ever use with LEE dies only, Would love to get hold of a set of cowboy dies and a Redding crimp die, would have to import them if I wanted them here. Everyone here who have much to do with the 44/40 would probably agree It can be a real learning experience and you experiment to see what works the best for you I realize this is a bit of a ramble on, But you don't seem to here much from this side of the world? ANYWAY "I WOULD LIKE TO WISH YOU ALL A MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY AND SAFE NEW YEAR" 

Kind Regards,
John
(Rangerider)

[greyhawk]

To all you 'two step' must do believers.  You are 'essentially' saying that all the Winchester, Marlin, Ideal (&310) - tong tools - destroyed or had issues creating a usable reloaded cartridge.  Is that 'correct' for the most part?  Or are you all implying that through all the years, not one of the manufactures (Lee, Lyman, RCBS, Redding, CH, Herter, Hornaday, Pacific, etc.) have ever created an adequate set of dies to do the job. At least not until Lee, created the Factory crimp dies?

Wrong!

I have made just about every CAS fired BP 44/40 cartridge, since 1994, for both rifle and pistol, in a Winchester tong tool and maybe a few were lost.  All cases fit.

Who is must who ?? I do two step because I detest case length trimming - so it suits ME what I do. My post on this is a "this is what I do not a this is what you should do thing". Any fool can put a blackpowder round together in a tong tool - heck you dont hardly need a crimp at all - try putting together reliable smokeless rounds for a 32/20 in a clapped out tong tool and see how clever ya are - might just change yr thinkin a teensy bit - my old tong tool is in the bottom drawer, and it aint comin out ever again to make ammo, the new proper dies I bought after years of frustration with stovepiped rounds are 100% reliable and a dream to use 

N who said RCBS dies are no good ? mine (44/40) been doin fine for thirty years or better

[Black River Smith]

greyhawk,

You state right above -- "My post on this is a "this is what I do not a this is what you should do thing".  Any fool can put a blackpowder round together in a tong tool - heck you dont hardly need a crimp at all - try putting together reliable smokeless rounds for a 32/20 in a clapped out tong tool and see how clever ya are"

Lets see here, what did the OP'er state, oh, he is a new reloader and what, he is loading with blackpowder.  So why, give him all your problems with smokeless loading that he is not interested in that, is my only point behind my comments.

But I do, Thank you now, for stating that loading blackpowder is not or will not be an issue('Any fool can put a blackpowder round together").  Unlike what every poster presented to him in the first page of comments.  Maybe it will give him confidence in reloading more, down the line.

[Coffinmaker]

    Aw Come Offit   

Is there any kind of good reason to be throwing Clods at one another   Folks are just trying to provide the best information they can for the New Guy.  Simple.

Now, absolutely, we have, in our zeal, Buried the poor guy in information that may or may not be immediately applicable but at least good information is being shared.

If your only contribution is to slam somebody trying to be helpful, drop over to that "other" forum where the daily sport is Dog Pile on anyone whom disagrees with anything.

SO:  Play nice.  Share Toys.  Or go sit inna corner.

Stay Safe.

[dusty texian]

I am new to BPCR and CAS stuff but a long time muzzleloader, and I am working on getting put together to start reloading so.e black powder 44-40 but I am not sure where to start with brass. I know Starline is pretty much the standard, however I have a line on a quantity of Remington RP brass at a good price, my question is which case has the greater capacity. I understand I won't likely be able to get a full 40gns in there but I'd like to get as close as I can.

Thank you in advance for sharing your knowledge and experience with a greenhorn.

    Hello Lefty , in the 44WCF same as the 44-40 I have used 36.Gr. by Weight of ff2 Swiss . Others may get less or more ,but that is what my Swiss weighs at the right amount of powder to compress about a 1/10 " in.    with the bullet I use in Starline cases . A good place to start fill the case until you can compress the powder about 1/10" in. and then seat your bullet to OAL. of choice . A good place to start . Good luck and have fun .

[Professor Marvel]

   Aw Come Offit   

Is there any kind of good reason to be throwing Clods at one another   Folks are just trying to provide the best information they can for the New Guy.  Simple.

Now, absolutely, we have, in our zeal, Buried the poor guy in information that may or may not be immediately applicable but at least good information is being shared.

If your only contribution is to slam somebody trying to be helpful, drop over to that "other" forum where the daily sport is Dog Pile on anyone whom disagrees with anything.

SO:  Play nice.  Share Toys.  Or go sit inna corner.

Stay Safe.

Thanks Coffin
I Could not have said it better.
But I would probably have needed three pages....

yhs
prof marvel

[Black River Smith]

LeftyLarry,

Here is a link to the best of the best info on 44/40 blackpowder cases and loading.  The link leads you to a sticky in the The Winchester Model '73 section of this website forum section.  Title is 'My 44-40 Black Powder Journey'.

https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=54292.0

It should give you all the info you originally asked about.  Case Capacity.  The gentleman that did this posting was well respected and acknowledged for has work with the 44/40 studies.

IMO reloading tools are what you want to spend and experiment with.


BRS

[dusty texian]

Old John was something wasn't he , miss him .,,,,,DT