Author Topic: CVA Mountain Rifle  (Read 21454 times)

Offline Quick Fire

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CVA Mountain Rifle
« on: February 25, 2015, 02:54:51 PM »
Is this gun legal for your events?

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Offline Tsalagidave

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Re: CVA Mountain Rifle
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2015, 03:44:40 PM »
That's a fair enough question Quick Fire.  Regardless if you have approved firearms or not, you are welcome to be part of the group. That being said, if one is representing the group at a match or living history event, here are the guidelines. (below)



The American Plainsmen Society
Weapons Authenticity Rules

These rules will lay down a set a parameters for the individual to choose a weapon or sets of weapons to fit his or her character and exact time period in the 1840-1865 period covered by TAPS.  Any weapon should be able to be documented as used during the period.

Members will have one full year from their date of joining to put together their outfit.

Members who do not intend to participate in shooting matches and/or period encampments are not required to own a period correct outfit. We welcome anyone wishing to further the knowledge of the 1840 to 1865 time frame. Shooting matches and period encampments are only part of our goals.

Approved List:

Rifles/Muskets/Trade Guns:  Any original or correct reproduction of a rifle, musket, or trade gun originally produced post 1803. 

Metallic Cartridge Rifles:  1860 Henry Reproduction in calibers 44 or larger.

Spencer Rifles and Carbines original or reproduction: Original caliber converted to center fire only i.e. no 45 S&W or 44 Russian.

Pistols:  Any original or correct reproduction pistol originally produced post 1803.

Revolvers:  Any original or reproduction produced 1836-1865 i.e. Colt Patterson, Walker, Dragoon, Navy and Pocket Pistols.  Remington Army, Navy, New Army, and New Navy.  S&W #1 or #1 ½.  Reproduction Confederate brass framed Navy’s of 36 cal only.  Pepper Boxes as long as they conform to the basic style of original production.


Disapproved List:


Rifles:  Any of the so called Hawken Rifles by TC, Dixie, Traditions, Lyman Trade/Deerstalker Rifle, et al -- unless modified to appear more correct to the period.

No commerative rifles, such as the Pedersoli Alamo (unless modified to remove engravings).

No Traditions Deerhunter, Woodsman Rifle, Traditions Kentucky Rifle,
Any modern in line muzzle loader.

Dixie Remington Revolving Carbine


Pistols/Revolvers:  Rogers and Spencer, All brass frame Remington’s, Brass framed Colt Navy in 44 cal., Carlton Under hammer match pistol, Guardian Derringer, Remington Ryder Derringer,
Dixie Wyatt Earp Revolver, Hoppe's pepperbox, Traditions Trapper, TC Patriot.

Ammunition:  Black powder or Pyrodex only.  No smokeless powders or moderns black powder substitutes made to simulate smokeless velocities.

Lead projectiles only.

Only bullets correct to the original types of rifle. For instance, round balls only (no modern sabots, etc.) in Hawken style rifles.

Sights:  Traditional open sights only. No adjustable Winchester style sights.


Holsters, shooting bags, rifle scabbards and cases, ramrods, powder horns/flasks, etc.:  All accoutermints must be correct to the period and the firearm. No plastic modern loading tubes, etc.


Just keep in mind that we are trying to be as historically correct as possible, while acknowledging that we live in the 21st century. If you have any questions, please ask. We'll work with anyone who is serious about getting it right, but we won't have much patience with anyone trying to skirt the rules. Thank you.
Guns don't kill people; fathers with pretty daughters do.

Offline Quick Fire

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Re: CVA Mountain Rifle
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2015, 05:25:27 PM »
Appreciate your reply but didn't really get an answer. I read the rules, but am not sure what if any difference in a mountain rifle versus a hawkens.

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Re: CVA Mountain Rifle
« Reply #3 on: Today at 11:10:28 AM »

Offline Major 2

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Re: CVA Mountain Rifle
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2015, 05:31:58 PM »
Generally, two barrel wedge , iron furniture, maybe pewter nose cap...
I  checked a photo of the CVA Mountain Rifle see below ... seems to qualify

If it this one you're good



that said ... to bad this one is not still for sale

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/6821281
when planets align...do the deal !

Offline Quick Fire

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Re: CVA Mountain Rifle
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2015, 05:59:20 PM »
Not sure if this will work, but if it does, this is just like my rifle only in newer condition.

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Offline Major 2

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Re: CVA Mountain Rifle
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2015, 06:03:51 PM »
Tsalagidave is the final word..... :)

I'd say you are Golden .... Dave ?
when planets align...do the deal !

Offline Gabriel Law

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Re: CVA Mountain Rifle
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2015, 06:48:17 PM »
If I may add to this interesting thread, please bear in mind that the CVA Mt. rifle has an adjustable sight.  But it's an easy fix to install a dovetailed semi-buckhorn, or whatever.  Other than that, this rifle is a lot more 'traditional' than most of the reproduction rifles out there.

Offline Quick Fire

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Re: CVA Mountain Rifle
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2015, 07:02:40 PM »
My rifle doesn't have an adjustable sight, unless you classify a dovetail (wind-age) as adjustable.

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Offline Tsalagidave

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Re: CVA Mountain Rifle
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2015, 07:48:48 PM »
I'll agree with the Major here Quick Fire. I have always been a purist who pushes only custom guns but yours does appear to have had the effort put in to look correct for the period so you're good.

There are a lot of brands out there that are so badly made that we make an effort to filter them out. I normally get wary anytime I hear "CVA" but personal prejudices aside, they are pretty good starter guns.

If there is anything from us you need to help you along, please do not hesitate to ask.

We're a club of friends here always looking for one more.

-Dave
Guns don't kill people; fathers with pretty daughters do.

Offline Major 2

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Re: CVA Mountain Rifle
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2015, 08:48:31 PM »
 :)  I hoped you'd agree

" I normally get wary anytime I hear "CVA"

I agree about CVA  (Connecticut Valley Arms)  they imported these from Jager in Spain....
The truth is the barrels were quite accurate actually, and shot quite well.
I knew a fellow (Bobby Lee ) that shot one of the Mountain rifles at Friendship, I want to say in 88 or 89
and won  .... much to the chagrin of some high dollar Custom shooters...
CVA actually ran his picture in their magazine ads for about a year....

I'll offer you this photo , it is the Grand staircase to the NRA Museum in Springfield Ms.
I point out the CVA Kentucky Rifles used a spindles in the railing ... The CVA Kentucky was a historic Anchorism, not replica of anything period.  However, they did have the Jager rifled barrel , and did shoot pretty well .
Kentucky Kits were about $75 and finished guns about twenty more...
They don't bring much more when found today...
I'm speaking about the Kentucky Rifle, and they also offered a Kentucky Pistol & The Philadelphia Derringer.

I believe your Mountain Rifle is a much better representation....  :)  
  







 
 
when planets align...do the deal !

Offline Quick Fire

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Re: CVA Mountain Rifle
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2015, 09:41:06 PM »
Actually, Major, the early CVA Mountain rifles were made here in the USA and the barrels were rumored to have been Douglas barrels.
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Offline Major 2

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Re: CVA Mountain Rifle
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2015, 10:08:19 PM »
 :-\ I have not seen a US made CVA's....  Might well be though

I know Ithaca Arms made them here ... for a short while (I think Uberti wound up with the tooling )
I think The Browning was from Japan  :-\

when planets align...do the deal !

Offline Reverend P. Babcock Chase

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Re: CVA Mountain Rifle
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2015, 10:34:27 PM »
Guys,

Here's the straight story on the CVA Mountain Rifle. I was in charge of the development and initial production of the gun and Kit (built the first one ever to write the instructions). The guns were originally assembled in the U.S. from American cut maple stocks and Spanish parts. The very early barrels were conventional button rifled, but were changed to a unique extruded barrel was rifle and formed in a special high pressure die in Spain and shipped to the U.S. for final crowning and fitting of the breech. After a few years, the guns and kits were fully made in Spain.

The original prototype was made by the late Don Kammerer, a noted custom rifle maker from Indiana, also a great shot. It was he who shot the rifles at the national championship in Friendship Indiana. He challenged a writer who had been tough on CVA (with some justification) to a match - the writer's custom target gun of choice against the Mountian Rifle. Don shot his target with 5 different rifles and the writer used his custom gun. Don's target was better due to the writer's flyer which ruined the group. Don offered to let the guy fire a 6th shoot discounting the flyer. The guy's best 5 shots fractionally edged Don's group, but the point was made that those mountain rifles could really shoot. It was a big deal at the time. The range was closed for the match and a large crowd gathered. Great PR for CVA.

If you can find a good older version with the maple stock you might have a real good shooter. The gun wasn't a copy of any particular original, but Don built a very good compromise between authentic, yet easy to assemble, especially as a kit. I still have the first one ever built from a kit.

Reverend Chase

Offline Tsalagidave

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Re: CVA Mountain Rifle
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2015, 10:53:46 PM »
I have a GR Douglas barrel  on my custom plains rifle. Words  cannot describe how much I have enjoyed it.  I once hit a chukar at 200m with a free-standing shot.  A Douglas barrel really was from the golden age of custom front stuffers.
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Offline Quick Fire

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Re: CVA Mountain Rifle
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2015, 10:58:05 PM »
Thanks for all the info guys, I learned a few things today. Enjoyed talking with you all.

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Offline Major 2

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Re: CVA Mountain Rifle
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2015, 01:46:20 AM »
I too have a Douglas barrel on a 1/2 stock Custom Flinter on a Maple stock.

Grenadier reminded me ..I should have said mine was 32 Cal.

Douglas Barrel is just down the road from where I live. As far as I know, they stopped producing BP barrels decades ago. However, they do occasionally pop up locally from old time gun builders. I have a .32 squirrel rifle built with a Douglas Barrel. Unfortunately, my Yahoo cousin had it for awhile and fired it with Pyrodex and never cleaned it. I have been tempted to call them to see if they could rebore it for me....matter of fact, I am gonna call them right now.
when planets align...do the deal !

Offline Grenadier

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Re: CVA Mountain Rifle
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2015, 09:34:26 AM »
I have a GR Douglas barrel  on my custom plains rifle. Words  cannot describe how much I have enjoyed it.  I once hit a chukar at 200m with a free-standing shot.  A Douglas barrel really was from the golden age of custom front stuffers.

Douglas Barrel is just down the road from where I live. As far as I know, they stopped producing BP barrels decades ago. However, they do occasionally pop up locally from old time gun builders. I have a .32 squirrel rifle built with a Douglas Barrel. Unfortunately, my Yahoo cousin had it for awhile and fired it with Pyrodex and never cleaned it. I have been tempted to call them to see if they could rebore it for me....matter of fact, I am gonna call them right now.

Offline Tascosa Joe

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Re: CVA Mountain Rifle
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2015, 02:56:27 PM »
The CVA Mountain Rifle was a great starter rifle for a person that could not afford a custom gun.  My wife gave me a TC Hawken back in 1973 and with her permission I sold it to a fellow and bought a CVA Mountain Rifle kit.  About that time John Baird published and article or 2 in the Buckskin Report on some cosmetic changes to the CVA to make it look more like an authentic half stock plains rifle.  They changed the hammer, put in a nice entry thimble, and poured a nose cap. 
When I wrote the standards for rifle and pistol authenticity for APS, I did not include the CVA Mountain Rifle because it is out of production.

T-Joe
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Offline Tsalagidave

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Re: CVA Mountain Rifle
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2015, 03:21:10 PM »
Thanks for the insight Joe.

Reverend, thanks for the full story on the the CVA Mountain rifle. I never met Don Kammerer but I really admire his work. I have a .40 left-handed flintlock from him and it is an absolutely fantastic shooter. I always wondered why the CVA performed so well despite its classification as a cheap-shooter and you solved the mystery for me.

Grenadier and Major 2, I hope to see those Douglas guns soon. I'd appreciate the company and I can only imagine those small caliber Douglas barrels would make excellent match rifles.

Quickfire, thank you for starting an interesting topic and welcome to the group.

I had the opportunity to grow a little more from the discussion and learned something new today. Thank you gentlemen. Its a privilege to count you among my peers.

-Dave

Guns don't kill people; fathers with pretty daughters do.

Offline Major 2

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Re: CVA Mountain Rifle
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2015, 03:52:04 PM »
I did remember Don Kammerer, as you jogged my memory...didn't about his involvement in the prototype.

Nor had I heard of the challenge to the Writer.... I do know Bob Lee , from Woodstock Ga. and saw the Magazine CVA advertisement with his photo & his winning CVA Mountain rifle...
I was working one of the two Films I did in Woodstock at the time (1992) and Bob had won his class the previous Friendship.
 Bob was one of my crew members, I don't recall which, either "Class of 61" or the made for TV Movie "Shenandoah".
But I think it was "Shenandoah"  :-\ which was shot in the Fall of that year .  
  

when planets align...do the deal !

 

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