The Brown Bess Musket in California

[Wahkahchim]

I understand that the Mexican Army used Brown Bess muskets in the Tejas campaign, including at the Alamo. But were they ever used by the Mexican Army in California? And if so where? Did the Brown Bess occur in the wagons of emigrants via surplus or war capture sales? As war souveniers? Any references welcome. Thanks.

[Tsalagidave]

I haven't done any real research on this topic so please don't quote me as an expert but do correct me if you have the provenance to refine what I say here.  I've heard the Brown Bess referred to as "the AK47 of the 1700-mid1800s". They were widely circulated and they became the official arm of the Mexican Army. (The Mexicans also had rifle-units that carried a Mexican marked Baker Rifle.)

I have seen a few "Bessie's" or "Tower Muskets" in both flint and converted percussion that are reputed to have been in America since the 1860s or before. I know that there were many captured in the Mexican American War as well as in the American Revolution and War of 1812. It is possible if not likely that the US Army cleared out its stores of old muskets by selling these guns to the public.  If anyone has access to any store receipts, advertisements or historical digs that might verify this, I'd love to see it.

The research that I have done on the Californios is that they mostly still carried the antiquated Spanish  Escopeta muskets in addition to Trabucos (horse pistols), sword, shield and lance. During the Mexican American war, it is likely that the Californios carried a mixed bag of old Spanish surplus, American-made guns from the tallow-hide trade era and perhaps even some Tower muskets. Like I said, this is all speculation based on previous California research that I did but I would really appreciate it if someone who has done more extensive research on the subject would share.

-Dave

[Books OToole]

The Brown Bess musket was still being carried by the Mexican army during the Mexican-American war 1846-1848.

So they were probably in California.

Books

[Advertising]

[Tsalagidave]

Books, I agree that it does make sense that surely there were some Mexican Issued Brown Besses here in California at that time. However, I came across some information a while ago that the main defenses of California were all militia and there were no specifics on the types of guns that they commonly carried. Although first hand accounts confirm the presence of militia (lanceros) with little if any reference to regular troops, they never specify more than vaguely about what kinds of guns they carried. Contemporary references such as Dana's "Two Years Before the Mast" confirm the large amount of American manufactured goods imported to California and this may likely have included guns from the US but this as well is only speculation on my part.  I also heard word that Pio Pico Armed & Equipped the California troops out of his own pockets but I don't have a first-hand source to confirm this. I would love to see some documentation on it and it makes sense that Tower Muskets would be here from the Mexican era but I can neither prove or disprove the point.  This would be a great research project if anyone is up to it.  I just don't have the time right now.

Any takers?

-Dave

[JimBob]

Little off the subject but,did Mexico have any armsmaking capability during the time period being discussed?

[Caleb Hobbs]

Sounds like a great idea, Dave. I'm swamped with work right now, but hopefully someone will take up the banner.

JimBob: I've been researching the Mexican Revolution (Villa and Zapata), and was also wondering about Mexican-made arms, although for a later period. So far I haven't found anything, but if I do, I'll try to follow it backward to the TAPS period.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

The way the Spanish ran their Empire in those days, I doubt if there was any incentive to create an industrial base.  Without actually researching, I've not heard of any local arms industry in any spanish territory, at least in those days.  After the French occupation by Napoleon, even the Spanish themselves seemed dependant on foreign arms manufacture.

[JimBob]

JimBob: I've been researching the Mexican Revolution (Villa and Zapata), and was also wondering about Mexican-made arms, although for a later period. So far I haven't found anything, but if I do, I'll try to follow it backward to the TAPS period.

Caleb,note what it says about "no proper arms making facility".


http://world.guns.ru/rifle/autoloading-rifles/switch/mondragon-e.html

[JimBob]

The way the Spanish ran their Empire in those days, I doubt if there was any incentive to create an industrial base.  Without actually researching, I've not heard of any local arms industry in any spanish territory, at least in those days.  After the French occupation by Napoleon, even the Spanish themselves seemed dependant on foreign arms manufacture.

You know,I've never even ran across information on individual Mexican gunsmith rifle builders similiar to our Penn.rifle builders or shops like the Hawken brothers.Was there ever any at all?

[Shotgun Franklin]

Over the years I got to handle some 'counterfeit' handguns that reportedly came out of Mexico. A 'Colt' SAA, operable but a little crude with numbers and the 'Colt' on the wrong side. The serial number didn't near match any Colt Factory numbers. I also handled a couple of 'S&W' copies, oddly marked but serviceable. Each was believed to have been built by some gunsmith(s) but he/they were unknown to the current gun owner(s). Most Texas History speaking of the gun market with Mexico has guns going South except for a few collector guns being brought back as late as the 70s. One of the reasons Pancho Villa raided into the US was in retaliation for the embargo on guns going into Mexico. A market Germany took full advantage of.

[The Elderly Kid]

After the brief Conquistador period Spain actively discouraged the possession of arms in its colonies, not only the natives, but the Spanish colonists came under this ruling. This is one reason so many Spanish soldiers in the New World retained armor and shields and were armed with lances clear into the 19th century. Even royal garrisons had difficulty getting arms and powder. The Spanish crown just somehow felt that it was wrong for mere colonies to be well armed and share in Spanish martial culture. And, like the rest of Europe, Spain saw its colonies as sources of wealth and raw materials, so manufacture and even trade were suppressed. What the colonies needed in the way of manufactured goods they were expected to buy from Spain at inflated prices. Trade with other nations was strictly forbidden and punished with great severity. Upon gaining independence Mexico had a great deal of catching up to do. This cultural history is at the root of much of the backwardness of Latin America to this day.

[Shotgun Franklin]

I do imagine that there were Texans who headed to California during and after the 1840s when surplus Brown Bess Muskets would have been cheap. I've always wondered what happen to the 1,000+ guns captured from the Mexican Army in Texas.
Of course there's also the good chance that Mexicans going to the West took whatever gun they could get their hands on.
If I'd have been a gunsmith around Harrisburg I'd have bought every Brown Bess I could have picked up. Converted to percussion with the barrel shortened I'd have sold'm as shotguns to anyone needing one.
Around Houston, in the 1980s, a Brown Bess would occasionally come up for sale the guns were cheap; the bayonets were more than the guns.

[Tascosa Joe]

A little off the thread but....Last year at the NCOWS Convention an individual from MO had a single action pistol about the size of the Cimarron Model P Jr. in .38 Colt Cal.  Doug Wicklund from the NRA museum was in attendance and he identified the pistol as being made in Mexico in the 1890s.  As Shotgun F. stated I have seen a few full size single actions and S&W copies reported to be made in Mexico that were pretty crud.  This pistol was a lot better than those.

T-Joe

[Wahkahchim]

After lots of research, what I know is that we don't know! I've talked with about six state parks. They all say that the Mexican Army I in California was armed with Brown Besses but that they don't have any genuine proof. The northernmost skirmishes seemed to have involved Californiano lancers using very old Catalan escopetas. But also there's a record of Sutter buying Besses in Hawaii of all places. But then the Russians sold out at Fort Ross and he switched his guards to 1777 Charlevilles. The State of California Parks Service seems to have taken most or all of the historic guns out of the park museums and hidden them. I'm not making this up. I don't know why. I will continue to research.

[Hangtown Frye]

As far as Sutter goes, the muskets he purchased from the Russians along with Fort Ross were "used in the time of Napoleon's invasion" (of Russia, 1812), if I recall correctly.  It wasn't specified as whether they were French muskets left by Napoleon's troops, or Russian muskets used in the defense of Russia however.  On the other hand, the Russian muskets were a general copy of the French ones of the period (1777), so they'd be close one way or another.

As of a few years ago Sutter's Fort had a great display of firearms from their collection, but some other display went in to replace it.  I'm sure that the staff is itching to pull them out of storage again though, so hopefully soon they'll have some of their goodies on display again.

Cheers!

Gordon

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

After lots of research, what I know is that we don't know! I've talked with about six state parks. They all say that the Mexican Army I in California was armed with Brown Besses but that they don't have any genuine proof. The northernmost skirmishes seemed to have involved Californiano lancers using very old Catalan escopetas. But also there's a record of Sutter buying Besses in Hawaii of all places. But then the Russians sold out at Fort Ross and he switched his guards to 1777 Charlevilles. The State of California Parks Service seems to have taken most or all of the historic guns out of the park museums and hidden them. I'm not making this up. I don't know why. I will continue to research.

Probably that rather strange law in Cal that states, no guns in state parks.  It shut down the gun fight re-enactments in Columbia state park.