Which 1860 Henry clone is best?

[BlueSteelDuke]

I'm asking from a hunting standpoint and not which one can be slicked up easier than the other. I currently Deer hunt with my Henry Big boy, but I really would like to venture out with an 1860 clone and Tang sights, so which one can withstand the +p .45 Colt cartridge from Buffalo Bore? Any input would be appreciated! 

BSD

[Abilene]

All of the 1860 Henry's are made by Uberti.  It will withstand SAAMI spec ammo, but not +P.  The toggle link action, and the brass frame, are not up to hot loads.  Henry's have been ruined (frame stretches) by hot loads.  The '92, '94, and Marlin (and your big boy) will handle the hot loads.

[Forty Rod]

MY 1860 Henry clone is best.

Next question?

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[Abilene]

I guess I should add that the steel frame Henry has a stronger frame than the brass frame model, but all of the importers will tell you not to shoot hot loads in any of the toggle link guns.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Several years ago I saw a M. Venturino article where he harvested a Texas deer with a Henry, and the .44-40 round loaded with an RCBS 44-200-FP bullet over BP at about 1,200 fps.  So, I guess +P ammo would be a personal choice?

[Pettifogger]

Several years ago I saw a M. Venturino article where he harvested a Texas deer with a Henry, and the .44-40 round loaded with an RCBS 44-200-FP bullet over BP at about 1,200 fps.  So, I guess +P ammo would be a personal choice?

1200 fps with BP ain't +P.  Winchester used to make hi-velocity .44-40 and .38-40 but people apparently didn't believe the warnings on the boxes that they were only for used in Model 92s.  The rounds were discontinued in the early 1960s.

[BlueSteelDuke]

All of the 1860 Henry's are made by Uberti.  It will withstand SAAMI spec ammo, but not +P.  The toggle link action, and the brass frame, are not up to hot loads.  Henry's have been ruined (frame stretches) by hot loads.  The '92, '94, and Marlin (and your big boy) will handle the hot loads.

Well, you learn something new every day. Will the Uberti's handle the Hornady Leverevolution ammo at 1400 fps?

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Pettifogger;  I guess I used too many "weasel-words".  My point was that regular loads work on deer given a competent hunter.

[Pettifogger]

Pettifogger;  I guess I used too many "weasel-words".  My point was that regular loads work on deer given a competent hunter.

Definitely.  Doesn't matter how powerful the round, you still have to put the bullet in the right place.

[Stillwater]

I'm asking from a hunting standpoint and not which one can be slicked up easier than the other. I currently Deer hunt with my Henry Big boy, but I really would like to venture out with an 1860 clone and Tang sights, so which one can withstand the +p .45 Colt cartridge from Buffalo Bore? Any input would be appreciated!  

BSD

I haven't seen one, however, I have heard Uberti is chambering the 1873 reproductions for 44 Magnum...

That means a steel receiver firearm, not a brass framed firearm, if this is a true fact about Uberti and their 1873 reproduction firearms.

I wouldn't want one for myself, chambered in 44 Magnum. The .44-40 cartridge has stood the test of time. My grandfather (1850-1950) hunted with a 1873 Wichester rifle in .44-40, and always got his game...

Bill

[Abilene]

Duke, I have heard of Leverrevolution ammo but don't know much about it.  So I just looked on Hornady's website and they do not list that round for the 45LC as far as I could see.  If they do make it, I would contact them and ask if it is within SAAMI spec.

Regarding the 44 Mag Uberti 1873 - there is a current discussion on that topic on the SASS Wire.  Although Uberti advertises it on their website, it apopears that they have only produced one rifle, and it may not have been to the proof house yet.  In a previous discussion, someone had contacted Uberti and received the reply that the 44 Mag model was beefed up in some aspect.

[Stillwater]

<snip>

In a previous discussion, someone had contacted Uberti and received the reply that the 44 Mag model was beefed up in some aspect.

"Beefed up in some respect...!" That would be the proper thing to do...

I have several rifles  in .44 Magnum, Marlin 1894's. I have several Uberti 1873 Winchesters. Right at this time, I don't need another of either.

I do have an Marlin 1894 limited (expensive) edition chambered in .44-40 that I really like well that I could open up the throttle on a lilttle bit more.

However, I would then have to keep the different .44-40 loads clearly marked and seperated from each other, to keep from making a mistake. Sooo, I will just keep shooting my formula that works in all of my .44-40 firearms.

Since there aren't any wild Indians, or bad guys, to shoot anymore, I don't need to push the accellerator on my .44-40's, I just need a box car load of cartridges to shoot in them.

Bill

[BlueSteelDuke]

Duke, I have heard of Leverrevolution ammo but don't know much about it.  So I just looked on Hornady's website and they do not list that round for the 45LC as far as I could see.  If they do make it, I would contact them and ask if it is within SAAMI spec.

They're surely making it, my son and I both used them last season. If I recall correctly they were traveling around 1000 fps, and the only thing we found to be faster was the Buffalo Bore. The Hornaday FTX tip reminded me of a Sabot slug in a shot gun. I'll look up the data and get back with you.

BSD
Additional.......The Leverevolution is at 950 fps, while the Buffalo Bore is a whopping 1450 fps!

[Abilene]

BSD
Additional.......The Leverevolution is at 950 fps, while the Buffalo Bore is a whopping 1450 fps!

Well, 950fps doesn't sound overly hot to me.  BTW, keep in mind that 1.600" is the max OAL that the toggle link rifles will feed from the magazine.

[Pancho Peacemaker]

Brass vs. steel is a one issue regarding strength.  The other (more significant) issue is the toggle-link design.  The toggle link is not designed for heavy recoiling smokeless rounds.  These old toggle length rifles were designed and shot in the hey-day of low recoiling black powder cartridges. 

If you are going to shoot heavy hunting cartridges, I'd move up to the 1886 or 1892 designs.  Browning's goal in the '86 design was to develop a strong action that could withstand heavy rifle caliber rounds.  The dual locking lug design of the '86 and the '92 are a whole lot more durable than the old toggle link actions ('60, '66, '73, etc...)  The '92 was adapted from this design to shoot pistol cartridges.

There are a whole lot of deer, elk, moose, and bear harvested in the 20th century with "antique" Winchester 1886's chambered in .45-70, .45-90, .50-110, and .33 WCF.

There are many collectors who consider the '86 to be one of J.M. Browning's greatest designs (and that's a big statement considering what Mr. Browning was responsible for.)

The recent Miroku 1886 reproductions marketed by Browning & Winchester are very nice guns as well.

Pancho

[Stillwater]

I'm asking from a hunting standpoint and not which one can be slicked up easier than the other. I currently Deer hunt with my Henry Big boy, but I really would like to venture out with an 1860 clone and Tang sights, so which one can withstand the +p .45 Colt cartridge from Buffalo Bore? Any input would be appreciated!  

BSD

It seems to me, that most people, sooner or later,  are inflicted with a disease called MAGNUMITIUS. I used to be inflicted with a near terminal dose of it.

Most shooters and narrow-between-the-eyes gun writers, think that a magnum cartridge will kill an animal "more dead, quicker" than a standard cartridge will. When proper bullet placement means everything when you are hunting.

If you want to use a rifle with the toggle link action, you need to forget about +P ammunition and practice your shooting and hunting skills. I know many toggle link action rifles are chambered for the .357 magnum cartridge, but why do you think you need a +P cartridge?  

I watched my grandfather shoot a very large grizzly bear, with an 1873 Winchester chambered in .44-40. It took one shot to do it with proper bullet placement.

Don't fall into the trap of where you feel that you need a higher powered load, to hunt with. Shoot your rifle enough, so that you are very familiar with it's characterists.

While I prefer the .44-40 to hunt with, the .45 Colt (there isn't a 45 long colt) isn't anything to take lightly. The only thing a faster shooting load in your rifle will do, is give you a slightly flatter trajectory.

Familiarity with your rifle and cartridge, is necessary in any shooting situation, be it target shooting, informal plinking, or hunting. Go shooting, but leave the paper targets at the range. Shoot your rifle at unknown distances, observing the bullet impact. Learn how to be a good judge of distances. To learn this, I stood at the end of a football field and looked at the opposite end, fixing the distance in my mind. Then I went out with my laser range finder and started judging distances and verifying them with the laser range finder. I became very good at judging distances.

My 1860 steel reciever Henry is made by Uberti, although it wears Cimarrons name on it. Cimarrons fonts are more suggestive of the originals in style and placement.

I prefer Marbles tang sights because of the windage adjustment feature in the base of the sight.

Bill

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            

[Stillwater]

Brass vs. steel is a one issue regarding strength.  The other (more significant) issue is the toggle-link design.  The toggle link is not designed for heavy recoiling smokeless rounds.  These old toggle length rifles were designed and shot in the hey-day of low recoiling black powder cartridges. 

<snip>

Pancho

While I agree with you comments on the toggle link action, and the gun metal vs steel receiver, I've seen many 1873 Wichester replicas chambered for .357 Magnum cartridges and doing quiet well.

The .357 Magnum isn't exactly a pip squeak cartridge.

I prefer the .38-40 and the .44-40 cartridges because they can be loaded strong, and are original to the 1873 firearms.

For my personal preferences, I don't like the .45 Colt cartridge in the 1860 Henry, the 1866 Winchester, or the 1873 Winchester. In the early days of the west, it was strictly a pistol cartridge, and I feel it is well placed in the pistol cartridge only roll.

The powers that be, in the various CAS shooting associations, have allowed the 1860 Henry and the 1866 Winchester to be chambered in center fire cartridges. If that chambering were limited to the .38-40 and the .44-40 I would be in more agreement with allowing those chamberings. The .45 Colt was never chambered in any rifle, until the CAS shooting became wide spread.

For my personal preferences, I wish the .45 Colt would have been left a pistol cartridge and never allowed in CAS rifle shooting stages. But that is just me and my personal preferences based on historical precedents.

I can't resist this... When you call the .45 Colt a .45 Long Colt, you're showing the world you're a newby dude, unaware of historical precedents too...! 

Bill

[shieldsmt]

I'm with you on your assessment of the 44-40 in the 1873 Winchester.  I wouldn't want to shoot a grizzly with it, but it is PERFECTLY SUITED to hunting any deer type game, which I know for sure.  I was so aprehensive about this until that first antelope dropped.  Nobody told that antelope and the subsequent antelope, whitetails and mulies it that it wasn't hit with a copper jacketed smokeless round out of a scoped bolt action rifle. Can't wait for October to hunt antelope and deer with it loaded with BP, for my third year. I just don't want to go back to a modern rifle.  Know your gun, place your bullet where it belongs. 

[Stillwater]

I'm with you on your assessment of the 44-40 in the 1873 Winchester.  I wouldn't want to shoot a grizzly with it, but it is PERFECTLY SUITED to hunting any deer type game, which I know for sure.  I was so aprehensive about this until that first antelope dropped.  Nobody told that antelope and the subsequent antelope, whitetails and mulies it that it wasn't hit with a copper jacketed smokeless round out of a scoped bolt action rifle. Can't wait for October to hunt antelope and deer with it loaded with BP, for my third year. I just don't want to go back to a modern rifle.  Know your gun, place your bullet where it belongs.  

Thank you for your comments. I wouldn't want to purposefully hunt a grizzly with an '73 either. I've heard a grizzly can run a human down pretty easy.

When my grandfather heard the disturbance in the corral behind the barn, he didn't know what was there. When you live so far out in the country as we did, around Columbus, Montana, any loud live stock disturbance meant take a rifle with you.

Grandpa peeked around the cornor of the barn and saw that big grizzly about to go after his new herd bull. One round, where the head joined the neck, and peace settled on the country side.

Getting close enough to take antelope with a '73 in .44-40 means you must be a really good hunter. Congratulations...

What areas do you hunt Antelope in?

Bill

[shieldsmt]

Between the Shields River and west side of the Crazies. There's enough broken country so you can put on a pretty good sneak. Heck of a lot more difficult than a scoped 270, but it really gets one's attention when they see an antelope in the truck and a '73 in the gunrack!