1873 Uberti in 44 mag. + toggle-link strength

[PJ Hardtack]

When the Flat Top Ruger Blackhawk in .44 Spl. came out, I bought two of them. Each came with a fired case in a little baggy for you to supply to 'Big Brother', if required.

I think that while safe if in a current rifle, chambering a toggle rifle in .44 mag might lead someone looking to qualify for a 'Darwin Award' to so chamber an older model with disasterous results.

[Bryan Austin]

...., chambering a toggle rifle in .44 mag might lead someone looking to qualify for a 'Darwin Award' to so chamber an older model with disasterous results.

I am afraid I do not know of an older 73 chambered for 44 mag.....however, if it is and is designated as such from the factory I feel pretty sure it is safe......just like a newly manufactured 73 chambered for 44 Mag. by Uberti 

[PJ Hardtack]

There ya go agin', pickin' fly sh*t outta pepper .... ;>)

I thought it was obvious that I was making reference to rechambering an older model '73 repro NOT so chambered from the factory.

In his book on "Gunsmithing The Guns of the Old West", David Chicoine devotes a chapter to the toggle link rifles - '66, '73, '76.
He states:

"Unlike the over-built Maxim machine gun, the toggle link actions used in our lever action rifles are minimalist; their components not occupying any more space than is absolutely necessary for dependable operation, and they have never been considered to be very strong."

Note the choice of words .... he did NOT say that they are NOT very strong. It all depends on the fit and the amount of useage.

He says later in the chapter that the Winchester-type toggle link actions get their strength from the fit of toggles in the frame motrises, not the material of the frames; iron or gun metal bronze.

"While the toggles were made of hardened steel, the mortices in the frame will wear, especially when the gun gas been fed a diet of higher pressure than normal smokeless ammunition. Once that happens, those pins have become the load-bearing axles for the toggles and by this point the head space will have begun to increase, sure signs that the toggles are no longer a precision fit in those frame mortices."

In order to avoid law suits, Uberti must have re-engineered their rifles to a high standard of fit to withstand the pressure of the .44 mag cartridge. Presumably the frames are made of proper steel, not iron like the originals. We await the decision of the jury of public opinion.

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[Bryan Austin]

There ya go agin', pickin' fly sh*t outta pepper .... ;>)

I thought it was obvious that I was making reference to rechambering an older model '73 repro NOT so chambered from the factory.

In his book on "Gunsmithing The Guns of the Old West", David Chicoine devotes a chapter to the toggle link rifles - '66, '73, '76.
He states:

"Unlike the over-built Maxim machine gun, the toggle link actions used in our lever action rifles are minimalist; their components not occupying any more space than is absolutely necessary for dependable operation, and they have never been considered to be very strong."

Note the choice of words .... he did NOT say that they are NOT very strong. It all depends on the fit and the amount of useage.

He says later in the chapter that the Winchester-type toggle link actions get their strength from the fit of toggles in the frame motrises, not the material of the frames; iron or gun metal bronze.

"While the toggles were made of hardened steel, the mortices in the frame will wear, especially when the gun gas been fed a diet of higher pressure than normal smokeless ammunition. Once that happens, those pins have become the load-bearing axles for the toggles and by this point the head space will have begun to increase, sure signs that the toggles are no longer a precision fit in those frame mortices."

In order to avoid law suits, Uberti must have re-engineered their rifles to a high standard of fit to withstand the pressure of the .44 mag cartridge. Presumably the frames are made of proper steel, not iron like the originals. We await the decision of the jury of public opinion.

Yes, my bad...you did say re-chamber and I failed to properly read. As far as I know, heard, read, rummer has it, the only things strengthened was the toggle links and pins. Lets face it, Uberti makes an 1873 chambered for the 44 Magnum. Period 

[wildman1]

SJ you must be gettin a pretty good supply of that fly poop by now.  WM

[Bryan Austin]

SJ you must be gettin a pretty good supply of that fly poop by now.  WM

Yeap. It amazes me the mentality. "For It Is Written"........but who the hell wrote it and why?

[wildman1]

 

[PJ Hardtack]

Savvy jack just doesn't subscribe to the "... everyone knows ..." and " ... it's common knowledge ..." schools of thought. Nuthin' wrong with that.

Once read a piece on the gun myths that we all grew up believing 'cause we read it in article after article in gun magazines. For example - "always sort your brass according to maker for consistency in accuracy, trim to length, etc."

The author shot two high end 1911s from a ransom rest with a control batch of ammo and a mixed bag. He chronoed them for extreme spread and velocity and then shot for accuracy. The most accurate ammo was the mixed bag. Granted, only one test, but it blew the myth out of the water insofar as the test guns were concerned.

All of which has utterly nothing to do with the original topic of this thread .....

[wildman1]

PJ sometimes ya just gotta go where the road goes. That also is a myth but I like it. WM

[PJ Hardtack]

" I came to a fork in the road
and I elected to follow the GPS.

And that's how I got lost .....

[wildman1]

There is one question no one has asked regarding this thread. Why is it in the '76 section? WM

[Martini450]

There is one question no one has asked regarding this thread. Why is it in the '76 section? WM

Can't remember for sure, but I think this question was posted before the '73 forum was launched.

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

44 magnum hmmmmmm.... guess Uberti knows something others do not.  Me thinks like someone else responded to... the toggle link is probably not as weak as some would lead others to believe.   But in my opine I think what John Moses Browning said to his father in the mid to late 1870's while working on the 1873 Winchesters and the Henry's and the 1866 models... "I can do better than this" so sayeth JMB.  And that he did... his 1884 patent proved to be the death of the toggle link. It was a slow death because of the popularity of the '73.  With JMB design (the 1886 in 45-70 caliber and higher / the '92 in pistol caliber / the '94 in 30 caliber) all will handle more heavier loads than the '73 or the '76 will ever handle.  The '73 is ONLY POPULAR in SASS shooting because one can have it SHORT STROKED which gives the shooter about 1/100ths of a second faster than a shooter using a '92. Soooo the 44 mag in '73 by Uberti will be bought by some.... because they just have to have it. Laugh.

[Bryan Austin]

44 magnum hmmmmmm.... guess Uberti knows something others do not.  Me thinks like someone else responded to... the toggle link is probably not as weak as some would lead others to believe.   But in my opine I think what John Moses Browning said to his father in the mid to late 1870's while working on the 1873 Winchesters and the Henry's and the 1866 models... "I can do better than this" so sayeth JMB.  And that he did... his 1884 patent proved to be the death of the toggle link. It was a slow death because of the popularity of the '73.  With JMB design (the 1886 in 45-70 caliber and higher / the '92 in pistol caliber / the '94 in 30 caliber) all will handle more heavier loads than the '73 or the '76 will ever handle.  The '73 is ONLY POPULAR in SASS shooting because one can have it SHORT STROKED which gives the shooter about 1/100ths of a second faster than a shooter using a '92. Soooo the 44 mag in '73 by Uberti will be bought by some.... because they just have to have it. Laugh.

Now thats something more to laugh about than just purchasing a 73 .44 Magnum. Bought a rifle because "it makes me faster" rather than because "I just want one". That is just  

[wildman1]

Now thats something more to laugh about than just purchasing a 73 .44 Magnum. Bought a rifle because "it makes me faster" rather than because "I just want one". That is just 

I'm laughin cause "I just gotta have (want) one".  WM

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

LMAO... I thought you cowpokes would get a chuckle out of that....

[Bryan Austin]

LMAO... I thought you cowpokes would get a chuckle out of that....

 

[Bryan Austin]

How much weight can you hold with you legs locked straight? Now how much weight can you hold with your legs bent? So tell me, what is the weak link? Locked legs or bent legs? So are your legs weak or are your knees weak? Where are your knees the weakest? While straight and locked or while bending?

When do weight lifters blow their knees out? While standing locked or while bending?

So exactly why would the toggle link be weak?

[wildman1]

That took a while SJ. I'm thinkin the links would probably not be all that weak unless there was excessive headspace or looseness in the links, at which point they could be weakened shootin hot loads. Body in motion etc. WM

[Silver_Rings]

I think the weakness of the 1876 / 73 action is a an urban myth.  The only failures that I have heard of were the chamber rupturing from a double charge of smokeless or from firing out of battery.  If someone has evidence of the toggle action failing I would be interested in hearing it.

Silver Rings