Author Topic: Carrying More Than One Gun  (Read 67459 times)

Offline St8LineLeatherSmith

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #80 on: May 30, 2014, 10:52:23 AM »
Ya wild animals were much more dossile back then and did not attack cowboys or the cows they were charged to look over while working the range so there was no need for any firearms ::)
if you can use common sense to speculate why cowboys would have adopted reasons why to use more than one gun dont you think some of those cowboys would have had the same common sense to think about the same thing back then when it would have actually been relevant?
there were even possibly things in history that was not written about because it didn't seem important to write about at the time.
just because it was not written about by some historian don't mean something didn't happen.

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Offline GunClick Rick

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #81 on: May 30, 2014, 11:23:30 AM »
Lets see,i'm a trail boss,i need a bunch of transients with some exsperience to ride herd,well i ain't gonna have a bunch of yayhoos with guns that would most likely shoot me and run off with the herd,maybe those few i trust and have worked with.
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Offline St. George

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #82 on: May 30, 2014, 11:47:56 AM »
This thread's reached the end of it's useful life when 'Woulda If They Coulda' enters into the picture.

I'll close it soon.

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #83 on: Today at 03:34:12 AM »

Offline Books OToole

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #83 on: May 30, 2014, 12:43:16 PM »
The Walker Colt came out in 1847.  There were 1100 produced.  One thousand went to the army (Regiment of Mounted Rifles).  Only one hundred were made for the civilian market.


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Offline Doug.38PR

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #84 on: May 30, 2014, 01:20:42 PM »
With all due respect, you are basing that on what primary historical source? As a note, John Wesley Hardin noted about having to hold a cylinder steady on a cap 'n ball revolver as it was so loose. One would think that a gunman of his stature would have grabbed his second revolver if he had one. Truth be told, not all cowboys were armed as they worked. The areas they travelled were for the most part totally safe from Indian depredations by the mid 1870's. Weapons were often stored in a wagon.

In order to properly understand this era one needs to literally purge their mind of all Hollywood nonsense and the idea that every "waddy" (the term used for cowboys at the time) worked with a saddlebag brimming with spare revolvers.

I'm not saying "everybody" and I'm not saying they always carried them.  I'm just saying it very possible based on the documented fact that a lot of Confederate soldiers, particuarly cavalry, carried more than one pistol.  Two or as many as four (I.E. Terry's Texas Rangers).   In spite of what appears in Josey Wales, a lot of these soldiers didn't just hand over all weapons to union officials and get gunned down, most of them just went home after their respective armies surrendered to try to rebuild or make something of a life after finding out their home had been destroyed.  Many of these soldiers went to Texas or came back home to Texas to work as cowboys on the trails to drive beef to markets north.   They didn't need to go out and buy new guns, many of them likely already had old ones.   

Traveling back then was dangerous business.  Even moreso than today.   

Offline Fox Creek Kid

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #85 on: May 30, 2014, 03:18:15 PM »
Doug, you keeping going over "plowed" ground here over & over. Your question has been repeatedly answered here in this thread. An objective look at history does not deal with "possibilities" or theories in as such. What matters are concrete & verifiable facts. Conjecture & proselytizing are best left to the preachers, politicians & philosophers.

Offline MJN77

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #86 on: May 30, 2014, 04:42:53 PM »
All I can say is read the memoirs written by the men that were actually there. The ACTUAL cowboys of the time. I bet a couple of you would be highly surprised at what they did and didn't do.

Offline FriscoCounty

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #87 on: May 30, 2014, 04:55:42 PM »
If you look at the production numbers, it just doesn't hold up.  The US population varied from about 17 million in 1840 to 40 million in 1870.  

Less than 20,000 Walker/Dragoons over a 13 year period.  215,000 of the 1851 in 23 years.  300,000 of the 1849 in its 23 production life.  200,000 1860s over 13 years. 230,000 of the Remington 1858.  



In comparison, 174,000 Winchester 1866 were produced. 720,000 Model 1873.  63,000+ Model 1876.  
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Offline St8LineLeatherSmith

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #88 on: May 30, 2014, 07:08:54 PM »
The Walker Colt came out in 1847.  There were 1100 produced.  One thousand went to the army (Regiment of Mounted Rifles).  Only one hundred were made for the civilian market.


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what about the US Model 1847's that went to Captain Samuel Hamilton Walker and his Texas Rangers How many was made for them?
How many of those 1000 soldiers kept their weapon after they were discharged from service?
tHERE ARE A LOT OF DIFFRENT VARIABLES IN HISTORY THAT IS FAILED TO BE DISCUSSED HERE .
SO ya the thread should be closed if you refuse to adress the not so mainstream behavior of some folks back in the day.
we are not talking about the general population. cowboys were a small group of people who made up a very small part of the population.
l
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Offline St8LineLeatherSmith

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #89 on: May 30, 2014, 07:18:11 PM »
If you look at the production numbers, it just doesn't hold up.  The US population varied from about 17 million in 1840 to 40 million in 1870.  

Less than 20,000 Walker/Dragoons over a 13 year period.  215,000 of the 1851 in 23 years.  300,000 of the 1849 in its 23 production life.  200,000 1860s over 13 years. 230,000 of the Remington 1858.  



In comparison, 174,000 Winchester 1866 were produced. 720,000 Model 1873.  63,000+ Model 1876.  
you also have to take account of the several thousand Colt clones that were made by various companys in the southern states during thebreaking away of the south from the union
Starr, Smith and wesson London colts and other gun manufacturers have not been discussed.
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Offline St8LineLeatherSmith

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #90 on: May 30, 2014, 07:41:09 PM »
I would also remind everyone how the term "cowboy" came about to begin with
in the Tombstone Arazona territory  was a notorious group of outlaws and they were called the cowboys.
I am pretty sure all those guys carried one or more pistolas ;D
back in the day the term cowboy would be a description of a thug in todays terms.
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Offline St. George

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #91 on: May 30, 2014, 10:49:29 PM »
Actually, that term came about to describe young boys who herded cows in England - well before they arrived on these shores.

It wasn't a revered job description, by any means.

By the way - they didn't carry guns at all...

There's more to the 'real' Old West that there is to the 'reel' Old West, and watching an AMC Western movie filmfest isn't going to make anyone smarter, because that's achieved by research and study.

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Offline St8LineLeatherSmith

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #92 on: May 31, 2014, 11:25:01 AM »
Sorry St George I was thinking more along the lines as to who popularized the term not the terms origin
never the less the cow boy gang was a real gang regardless of how the movies depict them.
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Offline Doug.38PR

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #93 on: May 31, 2014, 04:02:46 PM »
Doug, you keeping going over "plowed" ground here over & over. Your question has been repeatedly answered here in this thread. An objective look at history does not deal with "possibilities" or theories in as such. What matters are concrete & verifiable facts. Conjecture & proselytizing are best left to the preachers, politicians & philosophers.

Good research into history starts with possibilities, theories based on other concrete facts and going forward from there.  I'm not citing Hollywood but history. 

Offline flyingcollie

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #94 on: June 01, 2014, 09:47:35 PM »
. . . First of all, there could be problems with your horse throwing you, a foot stuck in the stirrup, and the sixgun might save your life by shooting the horse! Rabid skunks, coyotes, etc., . . .

I just can't let this post go by without a big thumbs up. What a picture that paints !! "First of all . . . " shoot the horse !! Priceless.

Offline Mean Bob Mean

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #95 on: June 02, 2014, 01:31:27 PM »
I can't put my finger on the book right now, but IIRC there are several photos of cowboys up Montana-way (1880's - 1910 or so), wearing a sixgun in a crossdraw holster.

Yes, but the average picture did not accurately reflect the reality of the west.  For example, every dude that came west bought a stylish, loud "Real Cowboy" outfit complete with guns and had his picture taken.  Most photos of working cowboys at corrals, riding herd, etc., show fewer firearms.  Rollins notes this fact in his study:

The Cowboy: An Unconventional History of Civilization on the Old-Time Cattle Range

Rollins participated in drives and was an educated man who went back to the range several times to study and carefully document actual cowboys.  He also noted that almost all real cowboys carried full length pistols and says they knew how to shoot.  He says that cowboys never carried unless they would be riding in territory expected to be dangerous or knew there were in fact dangerous animals about.  He says that they did carry in town because they were showing off and that they always carried when courting because they felt it made them more attractive to the fairer sex.  But when pushing cattle, he says firearms stayed in the wagons unless need dictated otherwise.  So, our perception as shaped by photos of actual cowboys must take into account how many of those photos were staged.  If a character wanted to get photos of real cowboys, they obliged by putting on all their crap, including guns.  The amount of the book dedicated to guns is small, indicative as to their actual, not perceived, importance in the West. 

Now, if you lived out there--say prospecting or living alone or such--you might be closer to a weapon at all times as you relied upon yourself more.  I have known old timers and they always owned guns and could get to them, but they did not think about guns much or worry about them like we do today, it was simply a tool you could fetch and use like any other.  Again, Lawmen and badmen and idiots who dressed like what they thought cowboys should be were the outliers, not the norm.  
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Offline FriscoCounty

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #96 on: June 02, 2014, 03:42:23 PM »
you also have to take account of the several thousand Colt clones that were made by various companies in the southern states during the breaking away of the south from the union
Starr, Smith and Wesson London colts and other gun manufacturers have not been discussed.


The 20,000 number for Walker/Dragoon includes the 1,100 1847 model and all 3 Dragoon models.  The 200,00  production run of 1860s includes the military contracts.    I didn't take into account the several thousand revolvers made by the southern states.  Nor did I account for S&Ws production or Colt Model 1873, Remington 1875 cartridge revolver production.  I was looking specifically at Percussion revolver production and the largest volumes.   

From 1847 to 1873 (25+ years) less than 1 million .36-.44 caliber revolvers were produced in the US.  The small pocket pistols, derringers, and small caliber rimfire pistols were much more popular.   

The percussion revolver was a vast improvement over prior technology.  Standard pistols only gave one or two shots.  Now you had 6.  Pepperboxes were very heavy and most required hand indexing.  Even so, percussion revolvers were heavy.  With the introduction of the large caliber cartridge revolver the need to carry more than one handgun wasn't there.  Except for a few well known exceptions, it didn't happen.  It wasn't until Hollywood came along that the need arose again. 

If you think about it why would you carry more than 1?  They are heavy, they impede your movement, they aren't useful beyond a few yards, they are expensive.  A lever action rifle with 14 shots and longer range was a far better investment than a revolver.  A double barrel shotgun was an even better investment for most. 
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Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #97 on: June 02, 2014, 03:44:48 PM »

Again, Lawmen and badmen and idiots who dressed like what they thought cowboys should be were the outliers, not the norm.  

That is a great way of emphasizing what I said back on March 28, 2014!
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Offline Mean Bob Mean

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #98 on: June 02, 2014, 07:07:33 PM »
Pepperboxes were very heavy and most required hand indexing. 

Dad says:  "Son, if you have to hand index too much you might go blind!"
Son says:  "Over here dad . . .dad . . .dad I'm over here . . ."
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Offline Books OToole

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Re: Carrying More Than One Gun
« Reply #99 on: June 04, 2014, 12:24:09 PM »

From 1847 to 1873 (25+ years) less than 1 million .36-.44 caliber revolvers were produced in the US.  The small pocket pistols, derringers, and small caliber rimfire pistols were much more popular.   


Approximately 250,000  of that 1,000,000 were 1849 pocket models.

The Walkers and Dragoons were designed to be carried in pommel holsters.  They are a bit heavy to wear a pair on your belt.
The  1851 Navy was the most popular belt model of the era.

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