Two problems with 38-40 resolved!

[rbertalotto]

Yesterday at the Ledyard CT CAS shoot I had issues with the first two stages. In my 1866 in 38-40, the bullets were being pushed into the case and jamming the gun. This was all new brass that I had recently loaded.

The second issue was once fired brass being tight in the chambers of my Uberti revolvers in 38-40. Sometimes they would not seat all the way in and drag on the recoil shield. New , unfired brass worked perfectly.

Last night I sat down and did some pondering.

Seems this last load of Starline brass is just a smidge shorter than the other brass I've been using. This caused the RCBS Cowboy seating / crimp die to not give the mouth of the case a good crimp on the bullet. I put the die in the lathe and with a carbide cutter I removed .050" from the bottom of the die...PERFECTO! Now the case goes deeper into the die and forms an excellent crimp.

To figure out what was happening with the once fired brass, I smoked a few cases and inserted them into the chamber of the revolver and I could see that the shoulder of the once fired cases was too far forward. The die was hitting the shell plate so I couldn't push the shoulder back any further.
 Back to the lathe and I cut .050" off the bottom of the sizing die. I adjusted it to move the shoulder pack just a few thou and now the cases fit perfectly.

 The 38-40 has been quite a row to hoe.....I have two revolvers and 6 rifles in this caliber and all the chambers are slightly different. Thank God it head-spaces on the rim and I can size the cases once and they will fit all my firearms.

 I love the 38-40 for CAS because at the pressure we shoot, the 45LC and other cartridges the bras in the neck is to thick and the cases can't seal the chamber well. With the 38-40 (and the 44-40), being black powder cases, they have extremely thin necks and seal the chamber very tight. My guns are clean as can be after a match. In fact, I rarely clean my guns during the season. I might swab the bore here and there. But there is no need to disassemble and clean like I used to do with 45LC.

 Hope this helps someone that might be having the same issues.

[wildman1]

If ya use a factory crimp die ya can properly crimp cases of different lengths and get a proper crimp. If ya don't ya will get crimps that are not tite enough on short cases and too tite on longer cases. 44wcf has several posts on this site concerning the factory crimp die.  Course if alla yer brass is perfect length ya shouldn't have ta worry about that. WM1
ps enjoyed seein ya at Tristate

[Navy Six]

rberlalatto, the 38-40 is my favorite cartridge for Cowboy shoots and I have always loaded it with blackpowder. I have experienced this problem you mention mostly in Uberti single actions, to a smaller degree in Colt single actions and not at all in Uberti lever actions.
The problem, as I understand it, is that most factory sizing dies do not re-size the fired case back to its original dimensions. Specifically, the shoulder of the case, upon firing, is expanded forward and most sizing dies do not push it back far enough. I had this rude surprise at a match after acquiring a pair of Uberti Cattlemen and using previously reloaded ammo that worked fine in my Uberti 1866s' and "73. At the match, most of this ammo would not chamber in the Uberti pistols but continued to function fine in the rifles. My fault for not checking this in advance and lesson learned! Anyway, about this time(mid 1990's) I read an article by Dave Scovill in Legacy Of Leverguns, first edition, describing this unusuall situation with 38-40 fired brass and sizing dies. Dave's solution was to contact RCBS and have them custom make a sizing die that pushed the fired case shoulder back to its original, unfired position. Dave also provided a part number. I called RCBS and ordered one myself ("38-40 SCOVILL FL SIZER, PN55010 ). I have been using this sizer die now for almost 15 years and never once had that same problem occur again.
 You would think that this much resizing would overwork the brass, but I can't remember the last time I lost a 38-40 case due to split neck or shoulder. I have about 2,000 38-40 cases, mostly Starline but some Winchester, that I bought those 15 years ago and of course I shoot a number of other calibers so that those 38-40's sometimes get a rest. I have often wondered about the disparity of the 38-40 chamber dimentions among manufacturers, especially Uberti. After all, they(Uberti) chamber this caliber in both their rifles and pistols, so why the problem? Doesn't matter, the 38-40 is still my favorite cartridge for the Cowboy matches as it strikes a nice balance between large caliber, case capacity and moderate recoil.
By the way, by using the Scovill die which resizes the case to original dimensions, I have been able to utilize a grease cookie which most people will tell you is not possible with this cartridge. With the now long case neck, the same as new, unfired cases, the base of the bullet ( I normally use Lyman # 401043 ) will not protrude below the case neck which leaves a little room for a card wad and the grease cookie. I don't always load this way, but when I shoot a two day State Match, usually Purgatory in the Pines in NJ, I can shoot all ten stages over the two days, again all this with blackpowder, and I never touch the guns as far as cleaning. This has worked for me for 15 years now so I guess I'll continue.
Sorry to ramble on so long, but when someone mentions the 38-40, it gets my blood going a little bit.  Good Luck,   Navy Six

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[rbertalotto]

The 38-40 is just such a great cartridge. I'm so happy that I finally figured it all out.

This past weekend I shot two CAS matches...Saturday in CT and Sunday in MA. Six stages each...out of 12 stages I had 1 miss......And my times were good enough to take my class at both shoots!

Once you have 100% confidence in your equipment it is one thing you don't have to worry about.

Now just speed and accuracy!

[Isom]

Rberlalatto,
38-40 is also my favorite go to, right behind 44-40. When I started with it back in '09 I too had a few problems. I shoot B/P in them, and after I'd load a batch I'd have to seperate it into pistol / rifle use by taking a cylinder out of a pistol and dropping a cartridge in the holes. If it went in it was a pistol round,,, very tireing. I also noticed that I had to give a little extra squeeze on the rifle lever when shooting sometimes pulling cartridge back out with rifling marks on bullet. Long story short, in a time span of about 8-9 mos, taking advice ,,,,, I tried different dies,, no change. Bought a cylinder reamer, reamed all holes,,,,slight improvement. Pulled barrel, ran reamer in it,,,,,,,,,,, big improvement. Uberti short chambers their 38-40 barrels, why,I  don't know. Have 3, all had short chambers. I'm a "Warthog", was asked how much powder I used, ans. almost to top, push bullet in . Was told I might be pushing the shoulder just enough so it won't drop in. Get a resizer/deprimer die, take the pin out, take a cartridge that stuck out the most, put it in the press, turn the die down until it touched, take it down a 1/4 turn, try it in the cyl. hole unti it drops in, give it an extra 1/8-1/4 turn and lock it down. All problems solved. Now ,,,, seeing and hitting the target is a story for another time Glad your 38-40 problems are gone.
Later on,
Isom Dart

[Sloan Dodgy]

 I know this is an old thread, but I thought I'd bring it back to life with news from my recent conversation with RCBS.

 I've had problems with .38-40 dies of various makes too, including my set of RCBS "Cowboy" dies, in not pushing the shoulder back far enough to secure the bullet well, cover the grooves and body fully, and even to allow chambering in several modern .38-40 repros, rifle and handgun.  The Dave Scovill custom die mentioned above by Navy Six is actually still available from the RCBS custom shop, even if it doesn't appear on their web site and can only be discovered by a long process of phone transfers and waits.  The current part number of the ".38-40 Scovill FL sizer" is 57081 and I've just ordered one.  John at the custom shop said that it would take approx 12 weeks.  It also isn't cheap, but at this point I'm willing to pay and wait because of my like for (...and investment in!) .38-40 firearms.  I'll report back with pix after it arrives.

[Montana Slim]

I'll also add another solution is to take your existing sizing die, remove the decapper pin and then shorten the die..... (.010 - .020) will do. Use machine tools if you have appropriate ones...or use a flat medium grit stone, apply oil and work it down (length) by hand with a figure-8 or circular pattern. Pretty simple, just takes 10 minutes of hand work. This lets the die be adjusted lower and push the shoulder back a bit lower, too (enough to chamber in your gun).

Lee shortened a set of dies for me (44-40) and my Dad (38-40) years ago. This was considered a free warranty repair since the dies were withing their warranty. I later modified a second set of 44-40 an used the same technique on a set of .223 dies I'd had a number of years. Cost me a couple dollars to mail the sizing die. It came back in a week or less. So, if you have a set of Lee dies, contact Lee (they won't be surprised)...or DIY.

Slim

[rbertalotto]

Yup...See my original post at top....Shortening the dies is the answer.

[sail32]

I shoot .44-40 in a Uberti Henry and a Pietta colt.

I full length resize and decap with Lee dies and crimp with a Lee Factory crimp.

I have no problems with either black or smokeless powder cartridges.

[Montana Slim]

Yup...See my original post at top....Shortening the dies is the answer.

Yup...saw it. I've covered this a few times on CAS-City & CAS-L (email) forum. Fixed my die issues over 15 yrs ago.
I often see "complicated" or costly solutions to the issue. My key addition is that hand-work with a stone can get the job done...if not for free, if you have Lee Precision dies.

Slim

[Sloan Dodgy]

Great solutions all!  I like long necks ~ prolly 'cause I have one myself! 

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

 I'm new to 38-40 having recently purchased two Colt Bisleys and two 1880's vintage Winchesters. I bought Lee dies  for loading. The original neck length of the 38-40 is .231" and the Lee dies actually size the cases back to that dimension. Cases sized as such chamber perfectly in all four firearms. So I'm wondering if some of the problems detailed here have more to do with improperly cut chambers than improperly cut dies....?

    I purchased the RCBS 40-180-FN mould and have used those bullets almost exclusively. One thing I noticed though is when the neck is sized back to original dimensions about half the bullets lube groove is below the neck. Right or wrong this has always been something Ive avoided at all costs evendors way before I began casting and loading this cartridge. I have no proof, but I surmise that when the lube is exposed to the hot gasses of burning powder it likely melts, maybe even vaporizes. Again, this is an assumption. So I ran the die to a machine shop owned by a friend and in far less time than it took me to type this he removed .100" from the bottom of the die thus enabling me to be able to lengthen the neck of the case enough to keep the lube from being exposed to hot gasses.

  I don't know that I'll ever notice a difference but I'm about to slog out to the shop and load a few dozen after which I'll slog out to the bench and try the loads at 100 and 200 yds.

  CHT

[kemerson2002@yahoo.com]

Hello! New to this forum. I have a 38-40 Bisley Colt made in 1910 (well up into smokeless powder). I also have two problems. The first, intrinsic to the revolver, is that the cylinder was bored at a slight angle, making each chamber a slightly different length. I have to resize each time to the shortest chamber. So it goes. The bigger problem is that the case design changed somewhere along the line. The Winchester early 1970s cartridge is on the left in the first attached picture and it's fairly easy to see why it always fits where the Ultramax (Starline case) on the right doesn't. To me it appears that the Starline case is designed for a more modern chamber where in the old days they designed the case to accommodate looser tolerances in firearm manufacture. 

So I have been reloading old-style cases after sending the die back to Lee twice to get the bottom shaved off so the case would go deeper (and the shoulder moved back). I can't get the Starline case to size at all with the more forward shoulder and, I think, a thicker case. Anyone know where I can get the old style cartridges or at least the old style brass?  Thanks!

[RoyceP]

I don't have any Starline brass. I also have had zero problems with 38 WCF. Maybe you should avoid Starline brass?

[wildman1]

If I were you I'd take one of those cases that won't chamber and coat it including the bullet with a black magic marker and then try to chamber it and then by looking at where the marks are on the case you will know exactly where the problem is.
wM1
PS I have 4 38-40s and they are all different. The one with the shortest neck is a Colt Lightning made in the late 1880's.

[bear tooth billy]

Maybe try just resizing Starline, make sure to lube it. Now see if it fits, if it does are you getting a bulge
when seating the bullet. On 44/40 I bought a Redding competition seating die and a Lee factory crimp
die, and all issues went away.


                                 BTB

[Froogal]

Maybe try just resizing Starline, make sure to lube it. Now see if it fits, if it does are you getting a bulge
when seating the bullet. On 44/40 I bought a Redding competition seating die and a Lee factory crimp
die, and all issues went away.


                                 BTB

That LEE factory crimp die is a wonderful thing.

[Cliff Fendley]

Yep, I don't know how many times I myself have mentioned it for the WCF cartridges. It should be a sticky at the top of the page, almost a must for loading those cartridges. Just makes life easier.