ANY one made there own backplate for a 58

[Gassaway]

Just looking for advise on this on just picked up a 58 kirst fcylinder less backplate $135 I own a lathe and small mill so I figure I would give it a go. any advise on this one. darn backplates sell for more the the cylider so i figured it was worth a shot.
any experiences would be appreciated

[Flint]

Haven't made a backplate, but I could.  If you've got the equipment, you can try it, you would need a mill at least, or one VERY good drillpress and a mill table or vise that can be adjusted to put the cutter exacxtly where you want it, and control over "Z" depth.  Don't try to cut a groove or sideways, as drillpress'.quills are not set up for side load.  To get anyone to make it for you would cost more than Kirst would charge.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Ottawa Creek Bill here on CAS City made a TRUE "thin plate" Remington .44 conversion. 

[Advertising]

[Professor Marvel]

Greetings Monsiuer Gassaway -

Since the introduction of Herr Kirst's ported, gated plate it's popularity has overshadowed the solid "thick plate" which seems to no longer be readily available.  Fortunately for those of us with somewhat "scottish" frugality and the desire for a non-ported thick plate conversion, the "thick plate" can be readily manufactured by the enterprising fellow .

Starting with common 3/8 steel  plate, you will find a piece 2" by 2" will be more than ample.  Remarkably, this is the very thickness one needs with the pietta NMA. Your Kirst ought to have come with an instruction sheet, which has a little graphic that I believe was designed to assist in the cutting of a loading port. you will find this graphic can also be used to lay out the plate as well. I would make several xerox copies so that they can be cut out with scissors and applied directly to your steel plate stock. In fact, for a trial run it could be most efficacious to use 3/8 plywood to dummy up a wooden model. 

The use of machine tools at this juncture is not absolutely necessary as the fit in the frame can be easily accomplished by hand with files.  I am finding that perhaps the most difficult aspect of fitting is achieving the curvature fit to the frame.

I found these photos of the front and back of the kirst plates, perhaps these will help you locate the relief cuts you will need to to make for the hand.  I am attempting to post them here, and they can further assist with determining your interpretation of the firing  pin.  I believe you will find your mill to be more useful in this project than your lathe :-)
 
Once you have achieved the desired fit, you may wish to harden the plate with casenite, but I do not believe it is absolutely  necessary given the pressures with which we are dealing.

While cold blue is perfectly satisfactory, there is a caustic but extremely durable hot blue finish that you can find here:
http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?s=e3a61634fb762bded45c7f685a86c75c;act=ST;f=22;t=17857

Your source of chemicals will be left as an exercise for the student . However, when dealing with substances from the alchemists, be absolutely certain to read all labels and have solid knowledge of what you are doing, especially if substituting ingrediants, as these can be very toxic and can produce heat and noxious or lethal fumes.

When in doubt, commercial supplies from Brownell come with ample instructions.
 
hope this helps
yhs
Prof marvel

[Gassaway]

wonderful information. thanks for the encouragement,.

[Professor Marvel]

You are quite welcome sir, those of us who aspire to being "rennaisance men" need to encourage each other... :-)
I neglected to mention, the central  hole in the plate is a common inch drill size (which escapes me at the moment)
and further, Herr Kirst has even designed into the cylinder the correct lip in the "star" to provide the correct clearance for the cartridge rims!

 yhs
Prof Marvel
 

[Slowhand Bob]

HAR HAR HAR, Those are actually photographs of my ported plates which are listed elsewhere for trade towards a solid pair..  You are correct in that the old style solid plates are now harder to come by than hens teeth.  It is my opinion that Kirst did not want to offer the much cheaper to manufacture solid version so discontinued it in preference of the much more expensive to manufacture gated and CW versions.  The market did not dry up but rather the product was just discontinued for, well you fill in the blank!

Though I am sure there would be a small market for those of us still wanting the solid ring version, it would probably be illegal.  I know nothing about patent law but it would seem that making these for sale would be a violation of Kirsts intellectual property.  I even considered having these welded up and reground but decided it might take time but sooner or later a trade will present itself and certainly be more desirable.

[Professor Marvel]

Thank you Herr Bob!
I had saved your photos for reference, but had misplaced from where they had come! I posted them to show how Herr Kirst has implemented his version of the original conversion ring/plate, which is based on prior work of the later 19th century.

I appreciate your concerns regarding possible infringement of patent laws.

On the one hand Patent Law is a means to protect the patent owner's rights to commerce, and forbids unauthorized commercial production (ie for commercial gain or profit) .  Since there is neither commercial production, nor profit involved on the part of a private hobbyist, patent law is not necessarily relevant. However, If I built a number of copies of a patented item and tried to sell them that would be a clear patent violation, and said patent is enforceable through civil litigation.

On the other hand We as hobbyists are attempting to recreate individual copies of the historic Remington "thick ring backplate" conversions that were being widely produced ca. 1870 ish , rather than actually copying Kirst's ring exactly.  Any patents relating to the original work concerning the conversion ring have long since expired, and the patent office holds that current works which are essentially copies of prior work (without any improvements) are not themselves patentable. There are other photos of the historic rings available in various books on the subject. 

One might try to make a case that manufacturing  replacement parts for a Colt's patent Model P revolver is a violation of patents, but those patents have long since expired and are no longer enforceable.  One also might make a case that that manufacturing  replacement firing pins for the R&D cylinder might be an infringement, but the firing pins themselves are not "new and unique" - firing pins are now so generic that they are generally considered unpatentable .

Herr Kirst's patents are most likely due to his major improvements in the cylinder design. His exact interpretation of the converter ring may be protected by patent. Out of curiosity I shall do a patent search on his work and see what exactly his patents cover, and I shall post what I find.

While I am not a patent attorney, I spent way too much time pestering the one assigned to me :-)

yhs
Prof Marvel

[Flint]

There is no reason to violate Kirst's patent, whatever he's covering cannot cover features found a hundred years ago.  If I made a backplate, I would probably use a firing pin more like the R&D with a threaded ferrule retainer rather than Kirst's crimped in version, and lose the hand clearance groove if it's patented.  Anyway, I could make it on my mill easily enough, given a cylinder to start with, that is the hard part.

I have both 45 and 38 Kirst cylinders, but only one set of backplates, as they fit either cylinder.  They are the older solid ones, which I prefer as the reload is so much quicker than a loading port.

[Slowhand Bob]

On the pictures, I would be glad to send them, by email, to anyone who might want to post them in a better place for a more secure display.  The ones in my sales add will disappear as soon as I find a pair of solid plates for trade or sale.  As I said, patent law, or any law, for that matter, is beyond me but I have always heard that 'personal use' one offs are legal.  The rub could come a year or so later when one decides he no longer wants his copy and sales it to another. But, BIG BUT, it is usually not financially practical for MOST patent holders to go after a 'one off' example such as this even then.  My gripe is based on the attitude, at least that was my impression, that these were discontinued because they bit into the sales of the newer more expensive versions.  We all know that the rings are not cast with a gate in place or the faux nipples intricate appearance, these are extensive machine operations beyond the orriginal basic ring so do not tell me that it is about saving money cuz I know thet aint yellow rain on on my back.

[Professor Marvel]

There is no reason to violate Kirst's patent, whatever he's covering cannot cover features found a hundred years ago.  If I made a backplate, I would probably use a firing pin more like the R&D with a threaded ferrule retainer rather than Kirst's crimped in version, and lose the hand clearance groove if it's patented.  Anyway, I could make it on my mill easily enough, given a cylinder to start with, that is the hard part.

I have both 45 and 38 Kirst cylinders, but only one set of backplates, as they fit either cylinder.  They are the older solid ones, which I prefer as the reload is so much quicker than a loading port.

Greetings Herr Flint!
I had in fact intended to use the threaded retainer, I believe that was in use on several of the period conversions. Regarding the hand clearance groove, I do not have access to originals to determine if it was incorporated, have you any information in that regard? It seems like a somewhat obviously desireable feature in order to keep from hanging up the works, altho ramping the back of the ring might suffice for "getting it in" , then jiggling the cylinder to "get it out"  :-)

yhs
Prof Marvel

[Professor Marvel]

Greetings Citizens -

For your edification, education, and entertainment I offer, a link to Herr Kirst's patent:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=T-wCAAAAEBAJ

(please note, BTW the reference to a patent for a "smokeless cylinder for a muzzle-loading revolver" .... hmmm )

His important points which satisfy the process of "new" and "useful" and  which are not dependant upon "prior art" are

a) the "fixed" breechplate in which the cylinder is allowed (nay encouraged ) to freely rotate, as opposed to the R&D in which they are attached

2) a single firing pin, fixed in relation to the hammer, as opposed to the R&D which has 6

III) Lugs or pins which secure the plate from moving , thus  modification is not necessary to the revolver.

so the relief groove is not covered.

Please bear in mind I like others am attempting to replicate the "old stuff". I admire the Kirst Products and greatly appreciate  his efforts & etc, and in fact purchased his cylinders as the hardest part after boogering up a percussion cylinder of my own. I am only offering this information for instructional purposes. I advocate purchasing his products, honoring patents, and  support pursuit and prosecution of patent violators, software pirates, etc etc.

have fun
be safe
support those who support our sport.

yhs
Prof Marvel

[Hoof Hearted]

Mr Marvel, howdy!

Walt's main pantent point is the "foot" or protrusion at the bottom of the "Konvertor" plate which keeps the plate from rotating. This is the very thing that Uberti indeed infringed upon. Walt tells me that his attorneys letters fell on deaf ears and the distance across the pond weighed heavily on his persual.

You indeed are correct, it is not a problem to make your own plate.

The "thick ring backplate" conversion does not really have a historical nature in the way you are trying to recreate it. Remington and the Armouries used the thin plate and soldered on cylinder section (or newly made longer cylinders) for the Army pistols. The "thick plate" was primarily used on the Navy and it was this plate that was screwed to the modified revolver (recoil shields removed). It also had a loading gate.

A blank "thick plate" with no firing pin (pin riveted on the hammer as on the pocket conversions) with a Kirst style foot, would be easy to make and much more "period gunsmith" correct. No need for the hand groove necessarily.

Just my .002 worth (adjusted because of Obamafication).

Regards
HH

[Professor Marvel]

Mr Marvel, howdy!

Walt's main pantent point is the "foot" or protrusion at the bottom of the "Konvertor" plate which keeps the plate from rotating. This is the very thing that Uberti indeed infringed upon. Walt tells me that his attorneys letters fell on deaf ears and the distance across the pond weighed heavily on his persual.

You indeed are correct, it is not a problem to make your own plate.

The "thick ring backplate" conversion does not really have a historical nature in the way you are trying to recreate it. Remington and the Armouries used the thin plate and soldered on cylinder section (or newly made longer cylinders) for the Army pistols. The "thick plate" was primarily used on the Navy and it was this plate that was screwed to the modified revolver (recoil shields removed). It also had a loading gate.

A blank "thick plate" with no firing pin (pin riveted on the hammer as on the pocket conversions) with a Kirst style foot, would be easy to make and much more "period gunsmith" correct. No need for the hand groove necessarily.

Just my .002 worth (adjusted because of Obamafication).

Regards
HH

Why Thank you Hoof-Hearted, I was hoping you might see this thread and I am grateful for your input!  Your advise on the historic examples is most appreciated.

For the uninitiated, Hoof-Hearted is a dealer of the Kirst products, and has Herr Kirst's ear,  with  well as offering smithing services of his own. He is a first rate fellow and a pleasure to do business with.

yhs
Prof Marvel

[Gassaway]

Good to here all the helpful encouragement. I started mine with a piece if 1.75 round bar stock and have filed flats on top and bottom thus far and open one side for the kirst cylinder to be removed for reloading. I am now in the process of thinning it to the propper thickness . i will keep you all advised. Not to ignite any uproar MY test gun is a 58 brass frame I got for $50 bucks. plan is a 45long colt case 20 grains of black over a cast round ball. it is going to be along the lines of this fellows work

http://www.time-slice.com/mohave.gambler/favorites/Remington/Lil%20Bruiser/Lil%20Bruiser.htm

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

For a light load in your brass frame conversion, try the roundball in a .45 Cowboy special case.  I use a similar solution in a 1889 REICHSREVOLVER, because its old and was hitting high.  A sized roundball in a .44 Russ. case gave me a light load that shot POA.

[Wolfgang]

For a light load in your brass frame conversion, try the roundball in a .45 Cowboy special case.  I use a similar solution in a 1889 REICHSREVOLVER, because its old and was hitting high.  A sized roundball in a .44 Russ. case gave me a light load that shot POA.

A shootable Reichsrevolver . . that sounds like FUN . .     

[Skinny Preacher 66418]

Be sure to post pictures of your progress. Thanks, Skinny P

[Gassaway]

well plate is installed and firing pin. works but looks crude thus far. on vacation as of today back in town thursday I will try and post some pics. only issue thus far is since firing pin does not have a rebound spring it hangs on the saftey notch of the kirst cylinder. works fine on chambers with round in them.  may have to fill the faftey notch on the kirst. o yea reloads are facilitates by cylinder removal. back plate is screwed into left side of recoil shield.

[Hoof Hearted]

well plate is installed and firing pin. works but looks crude thus far. on vacation as of today back in town thursday I will try and post some pics. only issue thus far is since firing pin does not have a rebound spring it hangs on the saftey notch of the kirst cylinder. works fine on chambers with round in them.  may have to fill the faftey notch on the kirst. o yea reloads are facilitates by cylinder removal. back plate is screwed into left side of recoil shield.

Gassaway (let 'er rip)

I'm mulling over the above description of your firing pin "problem". Can you describe this situation in more detail" I'd like to offer up some suggestions.

On the surface, my first comment would be that the firing pin is too long. Does it drag on half cock? Or maybe it is catching the edge of the "safety notch". I believe you are referring to the blank 6th safety rest on the cylinder (which makes it SASS legal).

Yours
HH