Author Topic: My 44-40 Black Powder Journey  (Read 14196 times)

Offline w44wcf

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1148
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
My 44-40 Black Powder Journey
« on: January 28, 2015, 07:31:10 PM »
I first began my .44-40 black powder journey back in 1999. Just prior to that, I had obtained some early .44-40 black powder factory W.R.A. CO. head stamped cartridges for study. Dissecting them, I found that they contained a pure lead 200 gr. bullet with two shallow grease grooves.  The 40 gr. FFG charge was compressed an average of about .20”.


In 1875, to give its readers some idea of what their .44 W.C.F. (44-40) black powder factory ammunition was capable of in their then new 1873 rifle, Winchester featured a letter they received from a E.H. Pardee, M.D.  of San Francisco, CA

“It affords me much pleasure to communicate to you the result of 30 consecutive shots at a distance of 110 yards with one of the improved Winchester rifles (1873). The firing was done without wiping, which proves the Winchester to be steady in her performance…..”

Illustrated was a target containing 30 shots, all inside of a 4” circle, and all fired with no cleaning between rounds. Pretty impressive, even now..
 


Today, Lyman’s 427098 mold is a close replication of the original bullet and bullets from it typically measure around .427” - .428” diameter depending on the alloy.  Most .44-40 rifles made currently usually have a groove diameter of .429” with some barrels as large as .432”. I did find that if undersized bullets are soft enough (no harder than 50/1) they will bump up and give accurate shooting.

However, it is better to have a bullet that is at least .001” over groove diameter if possible..  That is what a good friend of mine who goes by the handle “Fairshake” did several years ago when he contacted Accurate Molds to have them produce a 427098 clone mold, which, could be purchased to produce bullets in a specific diameter to fit an individual rifle’s specifications. In addition, the lube grooves would be square bottomed like the original factory bullets but with a bit more lube capacity.

I began my journey with the Lyman mold. Bullets were lubed with SPG and loaded over Goex FFG powder sparked by CCI 300 primers in R-P cases.  All was well for about 10 rounds” or so in the 24” barrel but accuracy began to degrade rapidly shortly thereafter as a hard ring of fouling started to build from the muzzle back into the barrel.

I then tried magnum large pistol primers, but still the hard ring of fouling made its appearance. I came to the conclusion that, based on Doc Pardee’s excellent results, the early b.p.’s were of better quality than the Goex powder I was using.

SWISS B.P.
I had read about Swiss b.p. made in Switzerland that was said to have similar characteristics to the early b.p.’s  so I ordered some.  What a difference! Now I was able to shoot 50+ rounds with no hard ring of fouling and accuracy being maintained throughout.  I found that with bullets from the Accurate 427098 clone (43-210B) pioneered by “Fairshake” over Swiss FFG powder,  the accuracy and performance of the original factory b.p. cartridges could be replicated.


GOEX B.P. – Bullet Development for use with -
But what about those who wanted to use a b.p. made in the U.S.?  Back in 2002, a fellow with the handle PRS (Pigeon Roost Slim) had been working with the .45 Colt to develop a bullet that would carry enough lube to keep the more fouling Goex powder from fouling out in repeated shots. Lee made the mold to his specifications and it has worked very well.
Following that, a fellow with the handle “Mav Dutchman” had Lee make a similar mold for the .44-40.

Thankfully, a fellow by the name of DD (Dick Dastardly) made it possible to procure those molds today at www.biglube.com.

“MAV D” (Big Lube) - I purchased some of the “Mav D” bullets from the supplier listed below and, sure enough, loaded over Goex powder,  I could fire many shots in a row with accuracy being maintained throughout.

Accurate 43-215C - Being a traditionalist, I decided that I wanted a bullet that would exactly match the original .44-40 bullet nose profile and would carry enough lube for the 24” trip many times accurately using standard Goex black powder. In addition, I had found that the original nose profile is best for down range accuracy (100+ yards) which is one of the things I like to do.

To start with, I used the 427098 and machined away the middle driving band a bit at a time, thus adding a bit more lube capacity until testing indicated that I had reached the IDEAL lube capacity for the task at hand.. It is now the 43-215C made by Accurate Molds. Thankfully, it runs very well with Goex and continues to produce very good down range accuracy (100+ yards) for many rounds with no foul out.

 
 

BULLET SUPPLIERS
1.) “Mav D” (Big Lube)
2.) 43-210B (427098 clone) Not shown on Mark's website but he offers it. Contact for information
www.whyteleatherworks.com

427098 - http://www.buffaloarms.com/Hand_Cast_Bullets_it-157239.aspx?CAT=4135-
 
Black Dawge - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/137773/goex-black-dawge-bullets-44-caliber-430-diameter-205-grain-lead-flat-nose-box-of-100?cm_vc=ProductFinding

Accurate 43-215F – no commercial supplier presently

BULLET MOLDS
www.biglube.com
www.accuratemolds.com
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/index-pistols.php



BLACK POWDERS > GROUP A  - 
 Goex / Schuetzen / Diamondback
 Works best with the Mav D (Big Lube) or the 43-215C bullets

BLACK POWDER > GROUP B
KIK – with the 427098 / 43-210B, accuracy was maintained for about 2X longer than Goex or about 20 rounds after which accuracy deteriorated as the black ring of fouling was building in the 24” barrel at the muzzle inward.  .

BLACK POWDERS > GROUP C
Swiss / Olde Enysford
Works very well with the original 2 lube grooved bullet … 427098 / 43-210B
(Testing the newer introduced Olde Enysford powder last year, I found that it worked as well as Swiss producing very good continuous accuracy for many shots.)   
 
BLACK POWDER SUPPLIERS (will ship as little as 5#)
http://blackpowderva.com/
http://www.powderinc.com/
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/3501
 

LOADING .44-40 BLACK POWER CARTRIDGES
I typically use a Lyman 55 powder measure which has markings for b.p. and mostly Ioad with the measure set at the “40” setting.  Because the densities of different black powders vary, the actual weight varies as this pic indicates.
.


I dump the powder charge slowly into the case with the pan held 4-5” above the powder funnel to settle it.  Some folks use a drop tube but I find that I get pretty much the same result in the .44-40 case)  Another method that I have recently adopted is to drop the charges in a block of 50 cases, then put another block on top and lightly rapidly tap the cartridge block which also settles the powder.



A hand held body massage vibrator will likely work as well…..


Lesser powder charges can certainly be used as long as the powder is compressed.  Some folks use the Lee 2.2 CC scoop for their .44-40 b.p. loads. It holds 32.5 grs. by weight of Goex FFG. Compression is about .10” on a settled charge (Winchester or Starline cases) at a seating depth of .36”.

To determine the amount of power compression a particular load requires, I use a fired case where the bullet is a slip fit in the case neck. First determine the o.a.l. of your loaded cartridge. Then after placing the powder charge into the fired case (pouring it in slowly to settle it) place the bullet into the case neck, push it down on the powder and measure the o.a.l.  The compression is the difference between that length and the final loaded cartridge length..

In the loading process, if your bullet is at least 10-12 BHN hardness, it can be used to compress the powder charge when seated. If less than 10 BHN, it would be better to pre compress the powder before seating the bullet……depending on the amount of compression and the actual hardness of the bullet.  Pre compressing the powder can be done with the neck expander, a compression die, or a slightly smaller caliber jacketed bullet like a 10MM. 

Velocities recorded with different black powders loaded at the “40” setting – Lyman 55 measure. Because of the different densities, the actual weights of the various powders do vary, but by using the volume measure, the compression is the same for all.. 
Case – R-P  .44-40 /  Primer – CCI 300   
Bullet – 210 gr. 427098 / 43-210B


With Swiss FFG and Olde Enysford, I found that the “36” setting  produced velocities comparable with the original 44-40 b.p. cartridge.

So just how accurate can a well crafted .44-40 black powder cartridge be?  Very accurate.

Remember the 30 shot group I mentioned in the beginning fired in 1875? 30 shots under 4” @ 100 yards. Awesome! Fast forward 135 years or so later at 100 yards…...that performance is still obtainable today …….

For the accuracy testing, I had a scope mounted on the .44-40 Marlin Cowboy (24”) rifle since it needed to be about the true accuracy of the cartridge rather than a test of how well I can see iron sights with my aging eyes.

Note: The bullet was actually the 43-210B



And a follow up 10 shot group ….


In the late 1800’s Winchester claimed that it’s .44 W.C.F. (.44-40) was adequate for deer and bear out to 300 yards. Well, I have no desire to try that but I do love to shoot at steel silhouettes out a ways….

300 meters (327 yards) on the steel javelina





Accurate Bullet molds with the original .44-40 bullet nose profile




So far, so good!
W44wcf

EPILOGUE
A short time ago,  I discovered that U.M.C. (Union Metallic Cartridge Co.) from 1906 - 1916, offered a 28 gr. 44-40 cartridge version in addition to their standard 40 gr. loading. Interestingly, that powder charge was the same that was used in the earlier .44  Henry Flat R.F. I decided to replicate that loading to see how the accuracy / velocity would have been.
U.M.C. would have used a wad to take up the lost powder space but I used PSB (Polyethylene Shot Buffer) after first compressing the 28 gr by weight charge .10”.   Velocity was very similar to the .44 Henry Flat at 1,125 f.p.s. and the accuracy at 100 yards was pretty close to the same as the standard 40 gr. charge in my rifle..


aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
aka w30wcf (smokeless)
NRA Life Member
.22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F., .45 Colt Cartridge Historian

Offline Coal Creek Griff

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2078
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 633
Re: My 44-40 Black Powder Journey
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2015, 09:13:02 PM »
VERY nice write-up. Thank you!

CC Griff
Manager, WT Ranch--Coal Creek Division

BOLD #921
BOSS #196
1860 Henry Rifle Shooter #173
SSS #573

Offline Buck Stinson

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 785
    • Old West Reproductions, Inc.
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: My 44-40 Black Powder Journey
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2015, 11:06:24 AM »
w44,
Very good report.  I find it especially interesting because I've been shooting and loading for the .44WCF for over 50 years, both black and smokeless.  In that time frame, I've owned dozens of 1873's, 1892's, several 1st gen Colts and even a Whitney Kennedy in this caliber.  My very first bullet molds were the Winchester 5th model and the Lyman 42798 as it was numbered back then.  Both bullets were nearly identical in size shape and weight.  I most often used the Lyman, because I didn't want to damage my Winchester mold.  Thousands of bullets have been cast in the Lyman mold and nothing has changed except the finish wear.  Now however, with all the cast bullets available today, I generally buy instead of cast.  One thing I noticed early on, was the wide variances in bore size on the 1873 Winchesters.  Some (but not all) of the 1st models and early second model rifle and carbines I've owned had very large bores, ranges from .427 to as large as .431.  This .431 rifle (2nd model, shipped 1881) was a special order straight grip deluxe, checkered wood, 26" octagon, full mag, set trigger and case colored.  It was in exceptional condition and no wonder.  It wouldn't shoot, because the bore was WAY oversize.  There wasn't a factory round or a reload on the planet that could be fired accurately through this rifle.  Very unfortunate, because I loved the gun.   I still shoot an early 1st model carbine made in 1875 and a rifle made in 1887.  Both of these guns are .427 bore size.  All of the Winchester model 1892 rifles and carbine I've owned in .44WCF have bores sizes of .427.   When loaded properly with black or smokeless the .44WCF is a deadly accurate cartridge in any of the old guns.   Again,
excellent article.

Buck

Advertising

  • Guest
Re: My 44-40 Black Powder Journey
« Reply #3 on: Today at 02:22:22 AM »

Offline w44wcf

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1148
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: My 44-40 Black Powder Journey
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2015, 10:15:35 AM »
CC Griff, Buck,
Thank you for the kind words.

Buck,
Wow! You have been at this much longer than I.  At this point I'm just a teenager (16 yrs) with the .44 W.C.F. / .44-40.
Do you still have the deluxe rifle with the 28" barrel?  Sounds like a real Winchester treasure!

I have only owned 1 original 1873 WInchester (1882).  It has an oversized barrel that averages .435" diameter  in the groove.
Thankfully the chamber neck diameter is large enough to chamber a cartridge with a .436" diameter bullet made from a custom mold and despite a somewhat rough barrel it shoots pretty well with groups  averaging in the 1 1/2" range at 50 yards if I do my part.

Along the way I had though about how this rifle would have performed for it's original owner back in the 1880's when the only ammunition produced was manufactured with a pure lead bullet pushed by black powder.

So....I made some pure lead bullets from the 427098 mold, lubed them with SPG and loaded them over 40 grs of b.p. Like the early factory cartridges, I did place a .03" thick card wad between the powder and bullet.

The results were interesting.  The .009" undersized pure lead bullet shot pretty well..... just like the original factory ammo likely did 130 years ago in that Winchester! Groups at 50 yards were in the 2 1/2" range which I thought was really well considering the bullet had to bump up almost .010" in diameter.

Obviously when smokeless rounds were introduced  in the mid 1890's and .426" bullets my rifle would most likely have placed them into a shotgun pattern.

w44wcf    

 
 
aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
aka w30wcf (smokeless)
NRA Life Member
.22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F., .45 Colt Cartridge Historian

Offline Buck Stinson

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 785
    • Old West Reproductions, Inc.
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: My 44-40 Black Powder Journey
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2015, 11:24:29 AM »
I had the 26" straight grip deluxe for many years, but decided last summer to sell it.  Put it on my table at the Winchester show in Cody last July and it was gone within two hours.  Although I had a mold cut for the gun, I was pretty sure it wasn't going to work and I was right.  The neck was too large for the chamber once the bullet was seated.  I don't know how the original owner was ever able to shoot that gun with any accuracy.  Obviously he wasn't and that's why the gun was in fine condition.

Offline Fox Creek Kid

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4558
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 104
Re: My 44-40 Black Powder Journey
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2015, 01:07:32 AM »
As those who have slugged/miked the barrels/chambers on 19th century guns know:  the specs were all over the map. It was literally luck of the draw so to speak.

Offline Horseapples

  • Active citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 41
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: My 44-40 Black Powder Journey
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2015, 03:13:48 PM »
I have an Armi Sport Sharps 1874 No3 Lightweight Sporter in 45-70, not a 44-40 wcf I know but it shares the overbore problem.  It came from the factory at .4665 instead of .458 and most batches or rounds i have tried tumble 1 in 3 before 100y. However, my mate puts together ammo for me containing lots of Swiss black powder and pure lead bullets, using this combination the rifle has regularly scored low to mid 40's out of 50 possible at 200y as the bullet "plumps" up to the bore.  Could not this solution have helped your overbored Winchester?

Excellent thread by the way with very interesting detail, thank you for sharing W44wcf.

Offline w44wcf

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1148
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: My 44-40 Black Powder Journey
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2015, 08:59:49 AM »
Buck,
Thank you for the update. If you never had tried it before selling the rifle, I wonder how a pure lead bullet would have worked over b.p. like it did to provide good accuracy in my oversized '73(?).

FCK,
Yep, "luck of the draw" with the pre smokeless era barrels.

Horseapples,
Wow, that is oversized for a .45-70. Glad to hear that pure lead bullets over b.p. resolved the accuracy problem like it did in my oversized '73.

w44wcf
aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
aka w30wcf (smokeless)
NRA Life Member
.22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F., .45 Colt Cartridge Historian

Offline john boy

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1488
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: My 44-40 Black Powder Journey
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2015, 02:20:05 PM »
For some current events respective to 44-40's and the Accurate 43-215C:

A prior project J.M. Marlin No 2 Sporting rifle, vintage 1879 or 1880, followed me home to bring it into shooting condition by adding sights - 44-40 TJ liner - single extractor - stock bolt and butt plate with screws ...







The Accurate 43-215C mold of John's design was ordered .430 and dropped 220gr bullets.  To chamber, the bullets had to be resized to 427.
John and I discussed powder charges that I deviated from.  The action on this Ballard is cast iron and I want to keep the fps under the 1180 fps of original rimfires.  Found a German website with loading data for 220gr 44-40's.  Calculated the imperial velocity, all under 1000 fps using 6.5gr Unique - 7.5gr Unique - 5.2gr TiteGroup and the new ETR7 powder that is TiteGroup equivalent of 5.2grs

In a few days, the reloads will be shot through the chronograph down the bore of a rifle that hasn't been shot in I don't know how long  ;D
Regards
SHOTS Master John Boy

WartHog ...
Brevet 1st Lt, Scout Company, Department of the Atlantic
SASS  ~  SCORRS ~ OGB with Star

Devote Convert to BPCR

Offline Coal Creek Griff

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2078
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 633
Re: My 44-40 Black Powder Journey
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2015, 03:10:18 PM »
Wonderful.  Breathing life back into a long "dead" firearm is pure joy.  I look forward to the shooting reports!

CC Griff
Manager, WT Ranch--Coal Creek Division

BOLD #921
BOSS #196
1860 Henry Rifle Shooter #173
SSS #573

Offline Mike

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 637
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: My 44-40 Black Powder Journey
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2015, 03:42:43 PM »
Saw one of those here in NZ at the last auction, was in 44 rim fire with nice bore. Did not sell i belive. I thought of converting it to CF and find a case or make case to shoot it.
Great looking 44WCF, lookforward to range report.
Buffalochip

Offline john boy

  • Top Active Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1488
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: My 44-40 Black Powder Journey
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2015, 09:06:54 PM »
44WCF Chronograph Reloads Test
Jun 24th - My 48th Wedding Anniversary!  :)
82 degrees - 41% RH
220gr Bullet - No patching

6.5gr Unique
Avg Velocity - 1017 fps
STDev - 16.5 fps

7.5gr Unique
Avg Velocity -  1125 fps
STDev - 9.7 fps

5.2gr TiteGroup
Avg Velocity - 975 fps
STDev - 22.9 fps

5.2gr ETR7 (comparable TiteGroup loading data)
Avg Velocity - 820 fps
STDev - 8.6 fps

* Primers showed no signs of high pressure for any charge
* No blow backs
All charges except the ETR7 had a 'cracking' sound on ignition

No opinions yet about the 'best' load because I only shot at 50yds.  But I liked the lower ignition sound of the ETR7.  Here's the link to the powder ...
http://www.expansion-industries.com/ETR7-PISTOL-POWDER-p/etr7-4lb.htm  It is Spanish Maxum CBS1 powder

New go round will be shooting groups.  Today @ 50yds, put up a new target after the chrono  testing shot the remaining reloads for all charges.  20 rounds created a 6" long group about 2" wide.  The different velocities of the charges using the same aim point was the reason for the string.  Later am going to fiddle with the powder charges & chrono them.  I want to get in the mid 950 fps velocity to insure there is no damage to the cast action but I do like the ETR7 powder!
Regards
SHOTS Master John Boy

WartHog ...
Brevet 1st Lt, Scout Company, Department of the Atlantic
SASS  ~  SCORRS ~ OGB with Star

Devote Convert to BPCR

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk

© 1995 - 2023 CAScity.com