IMR SR4759 loads in Cimmaron '76 45-60

[TCRken]

I've taken the plunge and have ordered a Cimmaron '76 in 45-60 and with the 22" barrel.   

I'm supposed to pick it up the 3rd and have ordered a die set and 50 Jamison brass.

I have 7lbs of a 8 lb can of IMR SR4759 and would like to use this powder with both 300 gr Hornady Jacketed and 385 Cast.  Can anyone share any advice or point to any load reference with the 45-60 and 4759?

I used the 4759 to make reduced (trapdoor) loads for my Marlin 45-70 and bowling pin shoots.  I used dacron filler to keep the powder close to the primer.   I've recall recently some warnings somewhere on using Dacron filler in the '76 due to pressure concerns.  Does anyone have any reference to the use of Dacron as a filler?   Any experience with CoW as the filler?

Are the trapdoor loads any guide for 45-60?  I'm treading cautiously with all the warnings about the toggle length weakness on pressure.  I assume I can not trust a powley number based on the 45-60 case volume.

The other load question is whether anyone has used a few grains of 2400 topped by Black Powder?   I've read of this by writers in old books but have never ran into anyone who's done this themselves but I've not been around BP shooters.  Aside from using a side hammer muzzle loader for a Muzzleload deer season I have no other experience with BP, and none in cartridge loading. 

Advice on all  is very welcome.

[ndnchf]

Back in my young and foolish days in the early-mid-1980s I loaded duplex loads of 2400 and FFG Goex in both a .45-70 #1 rolling block and a .50-70 Sharps carbine, both originals.  But I didn't know much about the proper way to load black powder cartridges back then.  This was a popular technique recommended by some shooters and scribes.  But back then, almost nobody knew how to load BP cartriges properly and bad information was common.  Fortunately, I didn't damage my guns or myself.  Now I only shoot straight black powder and my cartridges work fine.  Black powder is what these rifles were designed for.  With a little care, they will shoot great with the original propellent.  My '76 is a .50-95 and it has never tasted smokeless.

I can't speak about smokeless loads.  I got rid of all my smokless powder 15+ years ago and never looked back.  I'm sure others will chime in about it.

[Joe Lansing]

    4759 is a good powder for many BP cartridges. It is also great in duplex loads. The old Lyman Cast Bullet Book(the one with the Sharpes on the cover) gave a duplex load for the 45-70 of 8.0 gr. of 4759 and a sufficient amount of 2F to compress the charge. This is a very accurate load and I have fired hundreds of them in my original trap door rifle.
    From this duplex load, I developed the following load for the 45-60: 8.0 gr. of 4759 plus 45.0 grs. 2F BP under a 300 gr. cast bullet which gives an average MV of 1360 fps out of a 24" barrel.
    As for a smokeless load, I use 23gr 4759 with Quaker Puffed Rice filler  which gives me 1400 fps MV using a 300 gr. cast bullet.

    Hope this will help.
                                J.L.

    P.S. ALL RELOADS AT YOUR OWN RISK!

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[larryo_1]

I have used duplex loads in my 45-90 and my Sharps and, frankly, was not too impressed.  At the 1000 yards down at Virginia City, MT they used to take and pull a round to see if it was a duplex and if it were--GoooBye Sport!  Of course this was over 25 years ago and things may have changed but still I wouldn't recommend it.  Just stick to BP as that was what Grampa used!  AND it worked for him and me too.

As far as 4759 is concerned, it is a good smokeless load--at least in my 45-75 but I have used more accurate stuff  and I haven't used a filler except for fire-forming and then it was the wife's cornmeal.

[TCRken]

Thanks Joe for your information on SR4759.  Your load is close to the one I used for the 45-70 in bowling pin shoots.  My load notebook shows 22.0 gr of 4759 with the Dacron filter.   

I suspect I'm swimming upstream with a lot of the '76 members in wanting to use 4759 or other smokeless instead of BP but I'd appreciate any readers experience with this powder and others for that matter. 

Having 7lbs of it available makes the economics a bit more appealing.   I've got a large supply of cast and jacketed bullets from a bit of buying madness when I was in the pin shoots.   Developers closed the range and that was the end of the pin shoots leaving me supply of powder/bullets not to mention 400 45-70 cases.

[Joe Lansing]

    I can think of worse things to be stuck with. Moving back to duplex loads, which anyone can see are highly controvercial, the thing I like about them is they keep your bore clean from shot to shot. You obviously still have to thoroughly clean your rifle, but only after you've finished shooting for the day. The other thing is that smokeless alone burns hotter than BP and this can be destructive on antique soft steel barrels. I 'm not trying to convert anyone, but each to their own. I personally prefer to load smokeless in my repro BP cartridge guns, but prefer BP only(no substitutes) in all my front loaders.

                                                                          J.L.

[ndnchf]

I re-read my previous post and I may have come across kinda strong - no offense intended to anyone using smokeless.  Its just not my cup O' tea.  Same thing for duplex loads.  I know there are folks who still use them, I just don't see any advantage for my type of shooting and especially in old originals, where their use would concern me. 

[Joe Lansing]

    It.s a good thing to be concerned. I believe everything is good in its place and in moderation. There is no such thing as one size fits all. The trouble is determining what is "its place" and what's considered "moderation"?

                                                                           J.L.

[TCRken]

Gents

Re: BP only... you bet, each to his own.  I figure the shooting/reloading family can be all inclusive.

RE: originals and BP... Amen, I'd never use smokeless in an original '76 or anything not intended for smokeless.   I'm expecting from what I've read the Cimmaron '76 is stronger in the steel than the original '76 and should be safe for smokeless... all within the constraints of a not so strong toggle action.   Having lusted for a '76 frame for all these many years and being on the cusp of retirement and my brides suggestion, I'm getting it! 

So, I'm looking for those in the wise who've used smokeless in these "new" '76's.   As I said, aside from my past 40 years experience of loading smokeless I've got the economics of my stash of 4759 and a few dozen others, 2400, 4198, 2015 and some such that I've used in obsolete calibers while having zilch for experience in BP cartridge.   

In addition to my TCR's, I collect top break pistols, Smiths, H&R's Forehands, etc., .  Those prior to WWI I don't shoot since they were derived as BP frames.  I've got one NIB Iver 38 S&W made in 1905 that is marked in bold letters "Blackpowder Only".   Since it is NIB, there is no temptation to shoot it, even w/BP cartridge. 

At the same time, I've got a'86 that went from the factory in 1890 with 38-56 but was returned to Winchester in 1913 and rebarreled in 33WCF. Since, it's a tight frame, and factory rebarreled in a early smokeless cartridge I shoot it with close adherence to factory load equivilants.

Anyhow, appreciate any load advice for my '76.

[Arizona Trooper]

Here are a couple loads I developed for my Whitney-Kennedy in 45-60. The Kennedy is a good bit stronger than a '76, but these are pretty mild in it.

26 gr. SR4759,  300 gr. Lyman bullet, 1.96" case length   vel 1290   SD 23
21 gr. AA5744, 420 gr. Lee bullet,     1.96" case length   vel 1097   SD 5.7

20-21 grains of 4759 with the Lee 420 bullet should work well. That bullet shoots especially well in the Kennedy.

I usually shoot black powder in antiques, but keep some light smokeless loads for special occasions, like when I sneak out to the range early before church and won't have time to clean afterward. Some guns I won't shoot with smokeless at all, particularly the Spencers and Ballards. Others, like Trapdoors, have a long history of being OK with light loads, and some are just plain strong, like Win '86s, '92 and Kennedys.

[rustyrelx]

Having shot duplex for many moons(40 years) I have to add my 2 cents in here. 4759 is the "standard" smokeless that has been used fore ever in a duplex load. And it has been suggested to use 10%, maximum charge to the black powder load.
50 grns black is 5 smokeless
60 grns black is 6 smokeless
70 grns black is 7 smokeless
 Get the idea? The goal is to burn all the powder within the barrel. Like any load start on the low side and move up. You can see in the barrel if its correct as the residue moves farther up the length of the barrel as the smokeless charge is increased. So you have to look in the barrel. Again goal is to have just enough smokeless to  blow the residue out. No need for a barrel flash. The concept(duplex loads) works good and keeps one shooting accurately longer without cleaning the barrel.
    Don rustyrelx

[TCRken]

Thanks for the tip Don.