Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Barracks => Topic started by: Pitspitr on October 18, 2009, 03:18:21 PM
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The Grand Muster Report thread kind of took off on the subject of the wild bunch and Wild Bunch uniforms so I formed it's own thread.
With so many excellent uniforms in appearance, we seriously need to begin considering awarding 1st, 2nd and 3rd place for both the field and dress uniform competitions at future Grand Musters, as well as establishing a more formal grading system so that everyone knows what is expected.
Thank you for the kind words General.
Agreed about the uniforms. In fact several of us at the muster commented that with the outstanding uniforms at the wild bunch match, we may need to consider the possibility of judging the wild bunch uniforms as kind of a side competition.
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Thank you for the kind words General.
Agreed about the uniforms. In fact several of us at the muster commented that with the outstanding uniforms at the wild bunch match, we may need to consider the possibility of judging the wild bunch uniforms as kind of a side competition.
I think that is a great idea.
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Thank you for the kind words General.
Agreed about the uniforms. In fact several of us at the muster commented that with the outstanding uniforms at the wild bunch match, we may need to consider the possibility of judging the wild bunch uniforms as kind of a side competition.
I had much the same thought myself while both watching the Wild Bunch stages and later on while flying to Arizona. The high quality of the uniforms during the entire match is impressive, but that so many would go to the effort of putting together a ca. 1916 uniform for a side match is even more impressive. I would welcome any ideas on how we can incorporate the WB side-match into our overall competition without detracting from the fact that we are primarily focused on the Victorian era.
Perhaps we can just have a separate WB uniform competition without including it in the Battle Rifle (and thus Iron Trooper) competition. The GAF is unique in the CAS-type hobby in that we give equal attention to the attire, as well as the individual firearms and shooting ability.
US Scout
GAF, Commanding
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I would say to continue to hold it as a friday side match, as we have done, and award a WB uniform medal/certificate. I would NOT want it as part of the main match, we are too new to add distractions to the core of what we do (IMHO)
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I agree with Drydock. Keep WB as a fun sidematch, and dont include it in with the main match. A separate WB uniform award would be a nice addition tho. The folks that go to all the work to look the part deserve something for their efforts.
DM
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Yeah that was what I was saying
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The WB match is another one of the fun parts of the Muster. The uniforms are an important part and they can stand on their own as part of the Uniform competition.
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Only inasmuch as the WB timeframe is later than our stated end date, I would like to see it remain as a fun side match where people can dress as accurately as the spirit moves them, but not expect any award for doing so.
RCJ
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I like the idea of the WB side match sort of standing on its own. It would be nice to see some sort of award, but it could be as simple as a certificate. It doesn't need to be included in the criteria for the Brigade Champion award, but it might provide an arena for someone who can't afford a dress uniform, but wants to compete in both the shooting and uniform competitions. The Wild Bunch stuff would seem to be a way better fit in this organization than SASS, especially the way we do it. There were some great uniforms in the WB match at the Muster this year!
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Keep those comments coming. I am taking them ALL under consideration.
US Scout
GAF, Commanding
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Only inasmuch as the WB timeframe is later than our stated end date, I would like to see it remain as a fun side match where people can dress as accurately as the spirit moves them, but not expect any award for doing so.
RCJ
John,
You're basically correct, as the GAF primarily focuses on the Indian Wars in the US, and the military in general during the Victorian era.
However, the GAF uniform policy does permit a "Wild Bunch" uniform for those with an interest, primarily for the purpose of shooting in WB matches (to which I give credit to our Chief of Staff, Col Matt Lewis). This caveat would also include the Marine expedition to Vera Cruz in 1914.
6. Time Period. The Victorian-era, as defined for the GAF is between the years of 1860-1904, or as roughly equates to the black powder cartridge era.
a. Some leeway on the exact time period is permitted, depending on the member's individual interests but should not exceed that of the Crimean War (1854-1855) and the Pershing Expedition into Mexico (1916). Uniforms of the First World War are not authorized.
US Scout
GAF, Commanding
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Only inasmuch as the WB timeframe is later than our stated end date, I would like to see it remain as a fun side match where people can dress as accurately as the spirit moves them, but not expect any award for doing so.
RCJ
John,
You're basically correct, as the GAF primarily focuses on the Indian Wars in the US, and the military in general during the Victorian era.
However, the GAF uniform policy does permit a "Wild Bunch" uniform for those with an interest, primarily for the purpose of shooting in WB matches (to which I give credit to our Chief of Staff, Col Matt Lewis). This caveat would also include the Marine expedition to Vera Cruz in 1914.
6. Time Period. The Victorian-era, as defined for the GAF is between the years of 1860-1904, or as roughly equates to the black powder cartridge era.
a. Some leeway on the exact time period is permitted, depending on the member's individual interests but should not exceed that of the Crimean War (1854-1855) and the Pershing Expedition into Mexico (1916). Uniforms of the First World War are not authorized.
US Scout
GAF, Commanding
Let me restate then that I feel any Uniform competition should be reserved for the main Muster matches.
This opens up the interpretation/question- then can someone enroll and shoot the main stages in uniforms and arms of the 1911- 1914 period?
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Let me restate then that I feel any Uniform competition should be reserved for the main Muster matches.
This opens up the interpretation/question- then can someone enroll and shoot the main stages in uniforms and arms of the 1911- 1914 period?
In my view, the uniform criteria for the main stages should remain limited to the Victorian era, in keeping with the mandated focus of the Grand Army of the Frontier.
I was one of the people who commented on the quality (and quantity) of "Wild Bunch era" uniforms this year, and suggested that with such thought and effort being expended on attire so specifically suited to what is admittedly just a side match, then perhaps a separate "side award" for those uniforms should be considered .... I do agree that certificate(s) or the like would be fine, and would hopefully enhance the Wild Bunch side match experience without diverting GAF in any way from its primary purpose.
If you think about it, the Wild Bunch concept is actually more closely associated with GAF's military focus than to the milieu of SASS, where it originated., and to my mind is accordingly a very appropriate "side match" for a Muster. Having said that, however, it should remain entirely secondary and/or supplemental to our Victorian-era military criteria.
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In my view, the uniform criteria for the main stages should remain limited to the Victorian era, in keeping with the mandated focus of the Grand Army of the Frontier.
I was one of the people who commented on the quality (and quantity) of "Wild Bunch era" uniforms this year, and suggested that with such thought and effort being expended on attire so specifically suited to what is admittedly just a side match, then perhaps a separate "side award" for those uniforms should be considered .... I do agree that certificate(s) or the like would be fine, and would hopefully enhance the Wild Bunch side match experience without diverting GAF in any way from its primary purpose.
If you think about it, the Wild Bunch concept is actually more closely associated with GAF's military focus than to the milieu of SASS, where it originated., and to my mind is accordingly a very appropriate "side match" for a Muster. Having said that, however, it should remain entirely secondary and/or supplemental to our Victorian-era military criteria.
These is my thoughts as well, though I'm inviting GAF personnel to make known their opinions before any ruling is made. So far it appears that most are of a similar opinion, though with some minor variations - all of which are useful.
We recognize the top shooters in the WB side match and I'm thinking we should also recognize those who put forth an effort in dressing the part as well. WB shooting scores are not used for the Iron Trooper/Brigade Champion Award, nor should any WB uniforms.
Likewise, we're now getting so many quality field and dress uniforms at the Grand Muster that we need to provide for 1st, 2nd and 3rd place awards - not just 1st place. And we should probably be recognizing those who dress the part of the frontier scout, as opposed to the typical SASS/NCOWS cowboy/lawman/outlaw/townsman.
US Scout
GAF, Commanding
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I would think a dedicated 2 stage sidematch on the friday preceding the main engagement is entirely in order, with its own awards and its own uniform requirements, is entirely appropriate.
Moreover, perhaps we should remake this sidematch in a GAF image. Make it for the military arms of the era 1900-1916, ie prior to the involvement of the US in WW1. What I call the "Incursion era, Boxer Rebellion to the 1916 Mexican Incursion". Rifle based, uniforms of the era associated with the rifles. Here is where the SMLEs, the 03s, the Mauser 98s can come out to play. Stripper clips, bloc clips, chargers allowed, period speed loaders for the wheelguns.
BUT ONLY AS A SIDEMATCH! A walk down the historical path leading to our Victorian era Main Match. Moreover we should then limit our sidematchs to a dedicated few. Long range rifle, the WB, and perhaps a "School of the Soldier" should be offered. Not much else, lest we spread ourselves too thin.
Perhaps this discussion should have its own thread?
IMHO, LTC Drydock, ComOrdGAF.
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After reading my earlier post again, I think some may have gotten the impression I would want a Wild Bunch uniform competition included in the Iron Trooper award. Not so! I think the criteria for that should stay as it is now, with perhaps a second and third place added. I do like the idea of a seperate Wild Bunch uniform competition to go along with the shooting, but keep it a stand-alone thing. Field uniforms are usually less expensive to put together, so someone on more of a budget could compete for an overall award more easily in the Wild Bunch category. It would in no way interfere with the Brigade Champion award.
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Ned, Those are my thoughts as well. I don't have the money for the expensive uniforms. I would rather have a field unifrom with period correct firearms than the fancy uniforms.
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Moreover, perhaps we should remake this sidematch in a GAF image. Make it for the military arms of the era 1903-1916, ie prior to the involvement of the US in WW1. Rifle based, uniforms of the era associated with the rifles. No "cowboy" rifles. Here is where the SMLEs, the 03s, the Mauser 98s can come out to play. Stripper clips, bloc clips, chargers allowed, period speed loaders for the wheelguns.
I very much like that general concept I can already envisage "mixing and matching" various firearms already in my 'arsenal' - i.e. Ross or SMLE rifle .... and an even wider range of suitable handguns: Mark V or VI Webley, Colt Government Model, Colt New Service, S&W Hand Ejector ...... ;D
However, I can see a bit of a problem with the General's thought that WWI-era uniforms would not be allowed ..... unless he was thinking solely in the US context. Keep in mind that, by the end of 1916, the British Empire and the other major combatants (France, Belgium, Russia, Germany and Austria) had already been hotly engaged in the Great War hostilities for almost 2 1/2 years! And for the most part, they entered into that conflict in mid-1914 with uniforms, arms and equipment introduced at various times in the preceding ten or fifteen years .....
For example, the basic service uniforms, equipment and weapons used by British and Empire forces throughout WWI originated in the 1902-1908 time period, following the Boer War .....
In other words, care would be required in how any restrictions are formulated.
On the other hand, if the primary concern would be to avoid inclusion of items which are really "WWI-specific" - such as steel shrapnel helmets and respirators (gas masks) - I would certainly have no objection to that .... indeed, neither of those items of equipment were introduced for British Empire forces, at least, until 1916.
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That would be my thought as well, to avoid the WW1 Specific items found on the Western Front, such as the steel helmets, gas masks and such. Most were introduced well into 1916, mostly with the introduction of modern Chemical Warefare. I think that would be fairly easy to define and police should need be.
I think I should say I would not want to get rid of the "Cowboy" rifles per se, simply deemphasize them as we have in the Main match.
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I like your idea Drydock, of including weapons and uniforms up to WW1. It would allow the SMLEs to be used (a favorite of mine), as well as 1903s, G98s, etc. It would be a fun thing to see some of these girls work like they were meant to.
I dont mind getting rid of the lever action either, but if you do, I would not call it a Wild Bunch match, as that may lead to confusion amongst us SASS folks. I knew that I could bring my 73, my 1911, and my 97, and shoot the WB match at muster. If we disallowed levers, and still called it WB, we may have uninformed people showing up expecting to shoot with their levers, assuming that Wild Bunch rules apply.
DM
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While the GAF and the Battle Rifle Classes have grown considerably, I don't believe we've grown to the point to where we can afford to take the chance of being viewed as "elitists" i would strenuously argue against eliminating the scout classes and it wouldn't make any more sense to eliminate the lever action classes from the WB match. After all the characters in the original movie that the match was named after use lever guns.
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Folks,
Perhaps we are along the lines of allowing those "second generation" bolt guns and WW1 uniforms, but precluding steel helmets and gas masks. Handguns would allow for for Mauser Broomhandles, M1911 (only - no M1911A1a), Colt M1909, the various Webleys in His Royal Highness' Empire. Bolt guns would have the G98 Mauser, M1903 Springfield the SMLE, the M1891 Moisin or other military bolt gun made prior to 1916. Begging the pardon of Rattlesnake, yes, the Empire and other troops were involved in the "Great War" in 1914, but for this side match, being "Americentric" will allow a maximum of potential participation with a minimum of being the uniform police...
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Do ya think that we could include my 1917 Eddystone?
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Lawdog,
I doubt if the 1917 will work, as it's pretty Great War - specific, as are steel helmets, gas masks, etc. I'm not the one who makes the call, but that would be an educated guess.
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I would like to see Wild Bunch divided into two categories, 1911 & DA Revolver with an award for uniform as well. That way you give out three certificates for the match.
both shooting classes would have to use a period correct Battle rifle with the separation being whether you shoot a 1911 (or other auto) or a DA Revolver i.e. a Colt M-1917. Loading aids such as moon clips are to be allowed. So you either drop a clip and reload or eject out your empties and pop in another moon clip loaded.
Those are my suggestions.
Regards,
Capt Mack.
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Wild Bunch shooting:
I really like the idea of allowing other handguns of the era besides 1911-type pistols. I reckon that Webleys, early DA S&W's/Colts, Lugers, Mausers, etc, etc oughta be allowed in Wild Bunch.
My opinion only---Your mileage will vary. ;D
MG
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It seems to me the Wild Bunch venue is a SASS concept and doesn't really have anything to do with the GAF concept of the Victorian era military. As a matter of fact I believe the Wild Bunch movie lead to the founding of SASS. Let's leave the WB to SASS. If we MUST have something akin to it let's call it something else and establish our own rules for it.
We have a cut-off of 1904 and this discussion is now mentioning WWI!! The GAF is not meant to be everything to everybody. I agree that shooting early 20th century military firearms is fun but I don't believe most of them have a place in the GAF
Col Bull
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While I am not in GAF, I have been watching this thread. Earlier this year in Victoria, The Grey Fox, Cary Kangas entered our club match under Wild Bunch rules as an introduction to this event. (His results were not really part of the match.)
Interesting! But I kinda agree with Bull Schmidt; - Its NOT my idea of GAF!
All of the ideas being bandied about can fit easily into GAF and its period and subject matter, just leave WB out of it.
BTW, in 1914, the Canadian Expeditionary Force, C.E.F., was equipped with 5,000 model 1911's. Some of these pistols served well into WWII with our Para's. The Colts were later augmented with revolvers of several makes.
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Nothing like throwing a grenade in the pond to see what floats up. But i'm starting to rethink this. . .
Frankly, (Just me now) I'm becoming a little uncomfortable with anything right now that detracts from our central focus on the arms and accoutrements of the Victorian era. I think I'd rather see a School of the Soldier, or a full power on paper long range match, than the Wild Bunch. Even better, how about the Skirmish run in the 1890s rifle quals.
I think SASS is about to lose control of the intent of the WB, and it'll mushroom fast if they do. And if it does, it'll spill over on all of us, to our detriment. We need to keep to our core I'm thinking.
I think too, of the distances we're asking folks to travel. Adding a whole other set of guns to the load might not be the most considerate thing.
'Course, I'm just a thinkin' . . .
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Let there be absolutely no misunderstanding. There is no intention, I repeat NO INTENTION, of expanding the focus of the GAF beyond our stated period of interest. The GAF will continue to focus on the Victorian era military between roughly 1866 and 1900. You will note from our uniform policies that we will allow some expansion for a few years either way, but our primary focus is and will remain the last half of the 19th century.
However, the so-called "Wild Bunch" side matches have proved extremely popular at our Grand Musters, as evidenced by the early 19th century firearms being used, along with appropriate, and I might add very impressive, uniforms for the period.
What we are trying to do is define what is, or is not, acceptable for these side-matches so that we do not end up making the mistakes that SASS has done because they didn't give it any real thought until it was too late to take effective action. Also whether we should recognize the effort to both shoot well and look good doing it.
We can easily define what we will or will not accept, just as we can easily determine that these "Wild Bunch" side-matches are inappropriate for our Musters. This is why I am encouraging this exchange of opinions and ideas. If we determine that these matches are detrimental to the GAF, we will no longer allow them. On the other hand, if they are not detrimental, then we need to determine what we will or will not allow before it gets out of hand.
US Scout
GAF, Commanding
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Hello!
I guess I don't see how "Wild Bunch" stages have to be detrimental to GAF, AS LONG AS THEY ARE KEPT STRICTLY A SIDE MATCH THAT DOES NOT COUNT TOWARDS THE BRIGADE CHAMPIONSHIP! I think we all agree that the primary focus of GAF is the Victorian era, but that doesn't mean we can't have lot of fun with a slightly later period. It worked very well at the Muster this year to have the Wild Bunch match the day prior to the actual muster. That way you could participate or not as you wished. As far as being concerned with the travel, if I'm going put that much effort and expense into a long and extensive shooting trip, I'd rather have the option of an extra day of shooting, competition, and camraderie.
I think one way we could limit it is to put the upper time limit at August 1914. The Great War changed everything, so its beginning would seem to be a good cut-off point. Another suggestion would be to change the name, maybe to something to do with the Age of Expansion.
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I had a great time at the last two wild bunch SIDE matches at the last 2 National musters. Last year I used my 1917 with limited results and my 2 tone Llama 1911 and had a great time. this year I once again used the Llama along with my trusty Rossie 92.
From some of the ideas mentioned, I would be out of luck on both rifle and pistol.
To disiallow the 1911A1 would pretty much eliminate all but originals and purpose built reproductions of the WW! era pistgol. When most people think 1911 it's the A1 that they think of and that is what is mostly availabel to use. I think it's great to allow other handguns of the era like the double action revolvers and other pistols. Lets not be like SASS and allow only 1911s but lets not be like NCOWS either and requier that the guns have to be excactly the ones built back then.
on the Rifle, the 1917 is the closes't thing I have to a battle rifle. Remember that the m1917 or P-17 rifle is the American verrsion of the British P-14.
I really liked the relxed atmosphere of the last couple of Wild bunch side matches at the musters. I would hate to see thing taken so seroiusly as to forget that this is a game.
I think the Side mach rules should be up to the match direxctor. This includes the Wild Bunch side match.
Simply adding the rifle calib er rifles puts the GAF touch on it.
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One of the things I like about the GAF is that we are allowed ANY service weapon that was actually used in our era, like pencil barreled DA .38s, New Service Colts, Webleys, M1878 Colts etc.
On the separate classes for the revolver and auto in Wild Bunch, I agree with Capt Mack because I would like to see the big N Framed Smith & Wessons fired. If loading devices for the revolver are not allowed and the revolvers were to be pitted against the automatics, I would just shoot an automatic-easy choice. If there was a separate class for revolver and automatic, loading devices for the wheelgun would be unnecessary, although finding auto rim .45s for the M1917 Colts and Smiths may be a bit of a challenge for the people that use them.
I think the .45 autos should be in basic service type configuration, not the beavertailed, extended this and that, Novak sighted, funneled mag well gee wiz 1911s. Yeah, I have one of those modern configured 1911s, but I use a standard service .45 for wild bunch because I feel it is more in keeping with the spirit of our organization!
Whatever the outcome is on the status of the "Wild Bunch" in our organization, I am sure that Col
Drydock will make sure that the criteria for allowable weapons and loading methods will be logical and fair.
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Well, OK, here's what I would do: (and thank you, Charles Isaac!)
As was done at Hartsuff, split the class between Levers and Milspec. Lever class stays as is (SASS Standard)
Milspec class: Milspec rifles and handguns of the Era of Expansion 1900-1916, items identified with WW1 excluded (No helmets, gas masks, etc.) period loading aids allowed (Stripper clips, bloc clips, chargers for the Krag, half moon clips for revolvers, etc) NO shotgun, shotgun targets engaged with the handgun. (do this at my local match, its a hoot) Shooter has 4 options for dress: cowboy with any weapon, Villista with any weapon, US army with any weapon (In the Movie after all, the US Army outfits were a disguise) Or uniform to match the rifle. Both 1917s (rifle and pistol) and the basic 1911a1 allowed, developments of earlier weapons. NO OTHER EXCEPTIONS!!
THIS IS A SIDEMATCH! Don't even think about asking to use any of this in the main match!
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Drydock to your description I would add that certificates would be awarded for placing in the shooting and the uniform competition. And as you say this would NOT count to the BC.
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I concur with the good Col. It's all about having fun. Keep it a side match and not to interfere with the core values of the GAF.
Capt Mack
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And if we want to separate ourselves from SASS call it the "Pershing" Side Match.
Mack
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And if we want to separate ourselves from SASS call it the "Pershing" Side Match.
Mack
I like it!
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And if we want to separate ourselves from SASS call it the "Pershing" Side Match.
Mack
Capt Mack,
See my comments in the "SASS Takes Notice" thread.
I noted on another CAS City forum that the GAF "Wild Bunch" matches are not based on the movie but on the Pershing Expedition into Mexico in 1916. I would also include the Marine landing at Vera Cruz in 1914 as well - though I didn't say it there.
US Scout
BG, GAF
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Col. Drydock....I like the sound of your rules! No need to worry about that cranky '97 I bought...Now, what to use...SMLE, P-14,'98 Mauser, Moisin Nagant, Maybe even the Berthier, if I can find more than just the one clip I have for it(And more than 20 cases!)
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Pony express I have two berthier carbines one in WWI config and one in WWII config.
The both will take either the 3 or 5 shot clip.
Mine are extrememly accurate out to 70 yds (longest distance I have been able to test out)
I may take mine into the deer stand later this fall - they are nice compact well handling and seemingly well built rifles.
3 shot clips are very hard to find, if you want me to look at next antique gunshow - i am sure i would find some 5 shot clips - more than willing to buy for you and then ship for payment later.
they are too fun not to help a pard out!!!
PR
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Gee, folks allready making plans! I want to say something up front concerning the Moisin Nagant: ONLY the M1891 is eligible for GAF use, either in the Main Match, or any milspec side match. The Soviet era 91/30 is NOT eligible. For WB I would also NOT allow the 98K. Only the earlier 98 is eligible. Basicly, no WW2 configuration of any weapon can be used. Even 1903s better have barrel sights, the ww2 reciever sights are verboten . . .
IF! We decide to do this. IF! The command staff gives Ordnance direction to formulate such policy. IF! I survive the administrative beatings sure to accompany said direction . . .
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Pony Racer, I just checked, ans it turns out I had 2 5rd clips for mine. I thought there was just one in the reloading room, but there was another in the gun. I guess that would do for most stages, but any more than 10 rounds it would become a single shot.Mine is a WW1 type long rifle, I never have shot it much. Bought it years ago for $75 or so, and got one box of shells from Old WesternScrounger. They probably cost half as much as the gun! Never got set up to reload for it, maybe I'll have an excuse to do that now.
Drydock: Yes, the Moisins I have are WW1 type, with the octagon reciever and loooooonng barrel.
And I forgot about the Arisaka........I think introduced in 1906....
I think I need to get some more dies and bullet moulds...
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I have many Mosins, but my favorites are my M91s, of which are better shooters than my others too. They never should have made them shorter guns in the first place!
I am also working on an 1888 Commission rifle project, of which I am awaiting a few parts from a person who will remain nameless ;).
Once I get that going, I may end up going away from the Russian route, and going that route. Time will tell.
DM
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I have dies but got loaded ammo from GAD reloading and his ammo prices aint bad
here is link
http://www.gadcustomcartridges.com/
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I have many Mosins, but my favorites are my M91s, of which are better shooters than my others too. They never should have made them shorter guns in the first place!
I am also working on an 1888 Commission rifle project, of which I am awaiting a few parts from a person who will remain nameless ;).
Once I get that going, I may end up going away from the Russian route, and going that route. Time will tell.
DM
Does your commission rifle still use mannlicher type clips? The one I have is converted to use stripper clips, or loose rounds. I guess a lot of them were done that way. should make it better for battle rifle class, unless the modification prevents it's use.
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Mine all use the clips. I have about 7 of them, mostly in parts. 2 out of the bunch are close to shooters, but still needing a few things, including a few of the clips.
I had one of the converted Turkish ones, but traded it off without even trying it out. Got a Finn M39 with it tho.
DM
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Gee, folks allready making plans! I want to say something up front concerning the Moisin Nagant: ONLY the M1891 is eligible for GAF use, either in the Main Match, or any milspec side match. The Soviet era 91/30 is NOT eligible. For WB I would also NOT allow the 98K. Only the earlier 98 is eligible. Basicly, no WW2 configuration of any weapon can be used. Even 1903s better have barrel sights, the ww2 reciever sights are verboten . . .
IF! We decide to do this. IF! The command staff gives Ordnance direction to formulate such policy. IF! I survive the administrative beatings sure to accompany said direction . . .
Since you won't allow my M1903A3, I'm not sure if I want to approve any future WB matches... ;D Oh, wait a minute, I have a Krag I can use.
However, I think we need to come up with a new designation for said side match if we go forward with it - and based on the comments posted we probably will.
US Scout
GAF, Commanding
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OW! See, starting allready OW! No, you can't use an a3 OW! No beavertails OW!
How about "Black Jacks Match" as his career encompassed all we do, from the Apache campaigns of the 1880s, San Juan Hill, the Phillipines, the Mexican incursion, to command of the AEF. If the General grew a mustache and looked grumpy, he'd kinda look like the man.
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Dalton, I only have one commision rifle, one of the turkish ones converted for use without the clips. it feeds milsurp real smoth, but the only cast bullet I have tried didn't feed, they tend to get"nose down" in the magazine. Maybe I'll try the lee bullet in it, I only have a mould for the Lyman that is kind of short with lots of grooves.
Pony Racer, I checked out that site, they do have pretty reasonable prices. I also noticed they have .38 long colt cast bullets, both heel- and hollow base pretty reasonable. I may have to try a few of those out when I get my colt DA project going.
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Drydock,
How about "Black Jacks Match" as his career encompassed all we do, from the Apache campaigns of the 1880s, San Juan Hill, the Phillipines, the Mexican incursion, to command of the AEF. If the General grew a mustache and looked grumpy, he'd kinda look like the man.
I like this line of thinking. GAF is NOT $A$$. $A$$ has its WIld Bunch matches. GAF has its own Black Jack Matches. I would propose the GAF should accept this new title for our side match events...
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I kind of like Pershing Match myself, but either way, I am happy with it.
DM
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The name of side match doesn't really matter to me. Yes GAF is not SASS but niether is it NCOWS. I seem to see it going in that direction. I want to voice my objections here to making anythin MORE restrictive than it already is. I have no problem with rewarding those who take the extra effort for authenticity. But lets not exclude those who don't or can't. Remeber the scout shooting class and uniform policy.
let's try not to sound too exclusive.
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You do know we're thinking about allowing your 1917? ;D
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You do know we're thinking about allowing your 1917? ;D
I know that it's being considered, I don't want you to think I was talking just for myself. It's more how I think this sport should be. I like this rule from the Goddard territorial Justic committe.
"There is no list of allowable firearms, if it was
used in the old west, shoulda been used in the
old west, a replica thereof, or used in a western
movie it is probably allowed. If it's allowed in
SASS, NCOWS, or WASA it's allowed at GTJC.
The Match Director has the final say over what
equipment is, and isn't allowed."
I think we can do this and still maintain the homor of the millitary heritage that the GAF was founded on.
Just my 2cents
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I don`t know about Ya. I just say SHUT UP AND SHOOT!
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OW! See, starting allready OW!... If the General grew a mustache and looked grumpy, he'd kinda look like the man.
OW! :o
"The General"
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I've always wanted one of those M1917 Smith's to add to my Smith collection. I guess I'll start looking for one. I wanna get a bunch of moon clips to go with it too. I like to be prepared ahead of time. Would it have to be the military version with the lanyard ring, or can it be the commercial one without the ring?
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I'd hold off until the rules are actualy promulgated. But if it were up to me, I'd not require the Lanyard ring.
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My opinion is that M1917 be allowed with or w/o the lanyard ring and moon clips are allowed. You can get the moon clips from www.cheaperthandirt.com
Capt Mack
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I know it is common in the U.S. to think of both the Colt and S&W revolver designs under discussion as "M1917's" even though it is only the WWI military versions of each model that are correctly called that ..... mind you, perhaps that is appropriate in the GAF/Black Jack Match context.
FWIW, however, in my role as Commander of the Department of the International, and of the Division of Canada, I feel it only appropriate to post a reminder that the basic revolver designs both actually originate prior to the official GAF timeline cutoff of 1904 ....
The Colt New Service revolver came out in 1898 (and was first officially adopted by the U.S. Army in .45 Colt as the M1909) and the Smith & Wesson Hand Ejector revolver originated in 1899 (although not "beefed up" from the K frame to the N frame until 1908, I gather ....)
What is more, Canada acquired Colt New Service revolvers (in .45 Colt, initially, but later in .455 also) starting in 1900 for Boer War service .... In 1904, the Colt New Service in .455 was adopted as the official sidearm of the Royal North West Mounted Police, and remained in service with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police until 1954!
Although Canada acquired 5,000 .45ACP Colt Government Model pistols in 1914, all subsequent handgun acquisitions for WWI service were S&W Hand Ejector revolvers - a total of 14,500 of them chambered in .455 from 1915 through 1917 ....
Maybe I make these comments just so I can have an opportunity to post some more pictures. I have an example of every primary-issue military handgun used by Canada since 1878 ..... here arep hotoss of my Colt New Service and S&W Hand Ejector (both .455) .....
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Good looking handguns!
Mack
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Yes, the 1917, as a New Service with an introduction date of 1898, is allowed in a GAF main Match paired with an appropriate rifle. But must be reloaded with Loose Ammo, IE Auto Rims.
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My opinion is that M1917 be allowed with or w/o the lanyard ring and moon clips are allowed...................
Capt Mack
I want to see these clip loaded in "Expansion Era, Pershing, Black Jacks etc." too.
Mack was a wildman with that Sharps and one handed that de-spurred Smith Russian. Now I wanna see him one hand double action one of those rawboned old Colt New Services.
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I need some moon clips for the M1917 Smith and some 45 Auto rim ammo for next year. Anybody any idea on where I can purchase these items.?
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You reload? Tons of auto rim brass on Gunbroker.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=144475102
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It could be up for debate as to whether half moon clips could be used, as they only came out in 1917 for the M1917 revolvers. It will probably depend on what ends up being the cut-off date.
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No sir, I am not a reloader. I plan on aquiring the auto rim ammo and the moon clips.
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Every place I checked is sold out of lead auto rim, and for $1.00 a shot!
This is the best deal I found. Should shoot to the sights in an M1917. $275 shipped for 350 rounds. Stuffs expensive!
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=144195489
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Howdy Charles,
thanks for the link to the brass. I'd like to be able to use moon clips so we can use our standard .45 ACP brass but if deemed necessary I'll pick up the other and load it.
Check out the Colt M1917 I will be using:
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The discussion about likely (.... 'potential'? .....) permitted use of moonclips and "period correct" speedloaders with revolvers induces me to ponder how this may affect the "levelness" of the playing field among revolver shooters. Admittedly, this concern affects me personally because, in the long run, I would prefer to use a suitable wheelgun over my original 1914-Canadian-purchase Government Model pistol, which is likely too valuable to be subjected to a steady regimen of this type of shooting and handling. (Besides, it still has its original "umpteen-pound" trigger pull, but I really don't want to ruin its collector value by having it "slicked" .....)
However ..... as I understand the drift of the discussion so far, anyone using a M'1917 Colt or S&W - or even a Webley or other revolver originally chambered for .455 but which has been "shaved" to use .45ACP - would be permitted the advantage of using moonclips for loading/reloading. - and, of course, those devices are readily available at very modest cost.
On the other hand, anyone using a revolver in an original chambering other than was intended to use .45ACP in moonclips - such as any unaltered .455 or, say, a Model 1909 chambered in .45 Colt - would apparently be limited to using original (or at least "period correct") speedloaders.
Thus my question - wouldn't the proposed allowance of Model 1917 revolvers, and moonclips for loading them, actually create an unfair advantage for the shooters who use them ...... even though they didn't exist prior to the likely Black Jack Match chronological cutoff of 1916 or earlier? Indeed, both could properly be considered to be "WWI-specific" innovations ..... things we apparently want to intentionally avoid in setting the uniform and equipment parameters for this whole proposed side match.
Think about it - even if speedloading devices did exist for period-correct revolvers, the chances of a shooter being able to find even one such original device (let alone afford it) are likely "slim to none" .... For example - speaking from my personal perspective - although speedloaders actually did exist "back in the day" for British .455 revolvers (notably the Prideaux and Watson "rapid loading devices for revolvers", both originally patented in 1893) originals are extremely rare - the price of a single operational one of either design, if such could even be found, would likely run in the range of $500! And, of course, no reproductions of these devices are made ..... I assume similar difficulties would exist with regard to any other "period correct" speedloading devices.
So ..... am I all wet here, or is this a very valid concern? Shooters who choose to use period correct revolvers would be effectively prevented (mainly by rarity and cost) from using speedloaders, whereas those permitted to use M'1917's (through an intentional stretching of the time-frame limits to specifically allow such use) would have the advantage of loading with moonclips!
That is about as far as I have pondered the problem ..... but at this point two possible solutions occur to me (either of which would undoubtedly need to be considered and 'tweaked' ...) -
1. Permit the use of M'1917 revolvers (or any others, such as "shaved".455 revolvers) with moonclips, but lump them in with the automatic pistols .... or, because that in itself might not be fair either, perhaps in a separate category for "revolvers used with loading aids".
2. Leave all revolvers together as one class, but don't permit the use of any revolver with moonclips .... indeed, I would then suggest that the fairest rule in this regard would simply disallow any speedloaders or other such loading aids at all in revolver class. Voila .... level playing field!
- Admittedly, option 2 (which I prefer) would require shooters of M'1917's (or other revolvers configured for .45ACP in moonclips) to use .45AR cartridges ..... but at least those are readily available, at fairly reasonable cost. (The relatively modest cost of gearing up to shoot .45AR could be the "price" of being allowed to use a revolver which doesn't actually fit within the chronological limits.)
- My suggestion that no loading aids be permitted in revolver class is intended as a further leveling of the playing field ..... Nobody would be tempted to go to the cost and expense of trying to acquire rare and costly original speedloaders (or have them reproduced somehow) and this restriction would also avoid any possible future pressure to stretch the rules yet again to allow "modern" speedloaders .....
OK ...... those are my thoughts ...... What say the rest of you?
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Mack, that is one good looking '17!
New Services are my favorite pistols, but they are one beast of a pistol!
Here's my M1909 from an auction photo. Bought it back in July. I had it with me at the muster and would have shown it to you, but didn't know you used stuff like this.
(http://picturearchive.auctionarms.com/8324210507/9195519/usa%20%202.jpg_thumbnail1.jpg)
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That makes sense to me, but I need all the help I can get. I am going to sacrifice speed for accuracy. I haven't shot a double action revolver on a range in at least 10 years, maybe longer.
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The discussion about likely (.... 'potential'? .....) permitted use of moonclips and "period correct" speedloaders with revolvers induces me to ponder how this may affect the "levelness" of the playing field among revolver shooters. Admittedly, this concern affects me personally because, in the long run, I would prefer to use a suitable wheelgun over my original 1914-Canadian-purchase Government Model pistol, which is likely too valuable to be subjected to a steady regimen of this type of shooting and handling. (Besides, it still has its original "umpteen-pound" trigger pull, but I really don't want to ruin its collector value by having it "slicked" .....)
However ..... as I understand the drift of the discussion so far, anyone using a M'1917 Colt or S&W - or even a Webley or other revolver originally chambered for .455 but which has been "shaved" to use .45ACP - would be permitted the advantage of using moonclips for loading/reloading. - and, of course, those devices are readily available at very modest cost.
On the other hand, anyone using a revolver in an original chambering other than was intended to use .45ACP in moonclips - such as any unaltered .455 or, say, a Model 1909 chambered in .45 Colt - would apparently be limited to using original (or at least "period correct") speedloaders.
Thus my question - wouldn't the proposed allowance of Model 1917 revolvers, and moonclips for loading them, actually create an unfair advantage for the shooters who use them ...... even though they didn't exist prior to the likely Black Jack Match chronological cutoff of 1916 or earlier? Indeed, both could properly be considered to be "WWI-specific" innovations ..... things we apparently want to intentionally avoid in setting the uniform and equipment parameters for this whole proposed side match.
Think about it - even if speedloading devices did exist for period-correct revolvers, the chances of a shooter being able to find even one such original device (let alone afford it) are likely "slim to none" .... For example - speaking from my personal perspective - although speedloaders actually did exist "back in the day" for British .455 revolvers (notably the Prideaux and Watson "rapid loading devices for revolvers", both originally patented in 1893) originals are extremely rare - the price of a single operational one of either design, if such could even be found, would likely run in the range of $500! And, of course, no reproductions of these devices are made ..... I assume similar difficulties would exist with regard to any other "period correct" speedloading devices.
So ..... am I all wet here, or is this a very valid concern? Shooters who choose to use period correct revolvers would be effectively prevented (mainly by rarity and cost) from using speedloaders, whereas those permitted to use M'1917's (through an intentional stretching of the time-frame limits to specifically allow such use) would have the advantage of loading with moonclips!
That is about as far as I have pondered the problem ..... but at this point two possible solutions occur to me (either of which would undoubtedly need to be considered and 'tweaked' ...) -
1. Permit the use of M'1917 revolvers (or any others, such as "shaved".455 revolvers) with moonclips, but lump them in with the automatic pistols .... or, because that in itself might not be fair either, perhaps in a separate category for "revolvers used with loading aids".
2. Leave all revolvers together as one class, but don't permit the use of any revolver with moonclips .... indeed, I would then suggest that the fairest rule in this regard would simply disallow any speedloaders or other such loading aids at all in revolver class. Voila .... level playing field!
- Admittedly, option 2 (which I prefer) would require shooters of M'1917's (or other revolvers configured for .45ACP in moonclips) to use .45AR cartridges ..... but at least those are readily available, at fairly reasonable cost. (The relatively modest cost of gearing up to shoot .45AR could be the "price" of being allowed to use a revolver which doesn't actually fit within the chronological limits.)
- My suggestion that no loading aids be permitted in revolver class is intended as a further leveling of the playing field ..... Nobody would be tempted to go to the cost and expense of trying to acquire rare and costly original speedloaders (or have them reproduced somehow) and this restriction would also avoid any possible future pressure to stretch the rules yet again to allow "modern" speedloaders .....
OK ...... those are my thoughts ...... What say the rest of you?
I am with you on this. (I had talked about this earlier, just not as eloquently as you). I think we are big enough for separate classes for revolver and auto and it seems that a lot more of us have "Expansion Era" etc. revolvers than I thought.
Revolvers and autos together, loading devices allowed for revolvers, otherwise I'll just shoot an automatic-easy choice.
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For the Pershing Side Match I'd like to shoot either an auto or DA revolver. Keeps it interesting and not boring.
Mack
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Charles, that's a great looking revolver. I bet it is a beast!
I picked this one up too in .38. I'll use it for local matches for Span-Am era with either my Win '95 or Springfield '03.
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My only thought in bringing up the 1917 Colt a while back (on another thread) was that it's a New Service, and usually a little less expensive than the earlier version. I always assumed I would only use .45 Auto Rim loads, in that half or full moon clips are clearly a speed loading device, which we've never allowed. I'm emphatically in favor of maintaining that rule. If we do go with the Pershing Match (or whatever it ends up being called), I think we SHOULD allow clip-loading of the rifles that were designed for it. That was cutting edge technology in it's day, and it gives people an excuse to learn to use stripper clips!
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So no speed loading of revolvers but speed loading of rifles is ok?
Mack
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I picked this one up too in .38. I'll use it for local matches for Span-Am era with either my Win '95 or Springfield '03.
I had one of those with me at the muster too, but blued. Just started grabbin guns out of the safe when I packed up! Illegal for GAF due to being "Heavy Barrel" models though.
Again, I would have shown it to you, but didn't know you used stuff like this-you had those shiny looking eye-talian guns!
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So no speed loading of revolvers but speed loading of rifles is ok?
Mack
I believe the issue is that stripper clips were quite common to the era, while speed loading devices for revolvers were largely experimental. The U.S. Navy had a speedloader system for their .38 Colts, with a belt mounted cartridge box to match (it held two loading devices and six rounds loose), but I've never actually seen one "in the flesh". The half moon clips used in the Colt and Smith & Wesson 1917 revolvers were definitely Great War specific. We're trying to steer clear of Great War specific technology.
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I'm just thinkin' out load here folks . . . JUST FOR DISCUSSION!
Y'know, we do pistol reloads all day long in GAF. And the GAF is a rifle focused organization. How about more empasis on the rifle in the "Expansion" match? Doing movement up the range we cannot do in the Main Match.
Keep the rules and weapons as is for the Main Match. 15 rounds rifle, 5 rounds handgun. Classes for Levers, Milspec SS, and Repeater. 4 positions, each advancing 10 yards say, with some sort of obstacle for cover. Shooter must shoot the rifle in 3 of the 4 positions, choosing to shoot one postion with the handgun. Targets 25 to 100 yards. Shooter may choose to engage standing. kneeling or prone. 3 awards: 1st "Expert", 2nd "Sharpshooter" 3rd "Marksman" The handgun becomes a "New York Reload" for the rifleman.
I'd allow rifle reloading on the move, as long as the chamber is kept empty. (not SS obviously.) This is debatable of course.
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Drydock, I like this idea.
Advance, using cover, and engaging the appropriate targets. Sounds military to me. Reloading rifles on the fly would be alright too, as long as the bolt is open, which most would be.
What, pray tell, is a New York reload?
Some of us Kansas/Nebraska Border Ruffians have never been that far East.
DM
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Dalton, it's late 20th century slang for just pulling out another weapon rather than recharging the weapon you just ran dry. You do it all the time!
I'm just thinkin' out load here folks . . . JUST FOR DISCUSSION!
Y'know, we do pistol reloads all day long in GAF. And the GAF is a rifle focused organization. How about more empasis on the rifle in the "Expansion" match? Doing movement up the range we cannot do in the Main Match.
Keep the rules and weapons as is for the Main Match. 15 rounds rifle, 5 rounds handgun. Classes for Levers, Milspec SS, and Repeater. 4 positions, each advancing 10 yards say, with some sort of obstacle for cover. Shooter must shoot the rifle in 3 of the 4 positions, choosing to shoot one postion with the handgun. Targets 25 to 100 yards. Shooter may choose to engage standing. kneeling or prone. 3 awards: 1st "Expert", 2nd "Sharpshooter" 3rd "Marksman" The handgun becomes a "New York Reload" for the rifleman.
I'd allow rifle reloading on the move, as long as the chamber is kept empty. (not SS obviously.) This is debatable of course.
This would solve everything! I'm counting 4 New Services and a Webley that we will possibly see running in the Expansion Match at the next Grand Muster! Now I like 1911's, but they get boring. Nothing like some variety with some big bore double action wheelguns blasting away along with the 1911s normally associated with this type match.
Hope this works out!
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The fastest reload is always another gun!
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Perhaps I misunderstood the direction the discussion was taking ..... but from the apparent possibility of allowing M'1917 revolvers - which by definition were designed to use .45ACP cartridges in moonclips - coupled with the ongoing talk about moonclips, I was perhaps just assuming that moonclips might be under consideration as permissible with these revolvers.
Both M'1917 revolver types are admittedly simply WWI-era variants of models which did exist in the Expansion time-period, but are also much more readily available and affordable than the forerunner versions .... so I can fully understand the push to allow them. To clarify - I have no objection to allowing M'1917's (and other revolvers which use moonclips) to compete in the a "revolver class" as long as the playing field is kept fairly level. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I think that the easiest way to do that would be to disallow any "rapid loading devices" for revolvers - including moonclips, but also even "period correct" speedloaders ..... which were, indeed rare and/or experimental back then, anyway.
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The U.S. Navy had a speedloader system for their .38 Colts, with a belt mounted cartridge box to match (it held two loading devices and six rounds loose), but I've never actually seen one "in the flesh".
I have one of the original "USN" marked leather pouches that holds two of those early speedloaders, plus the 6 additional rounds for the M1889 Navy etc. revolvers. I meant to bring it to the muster for show 'n tell but never got around to digging it out. Don't have any of the speedloaders for it though.
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I have one of the original "USN" marked leather pouches that holds two of those early speedloaders, plus the 6 additional rounds for the M1889 Navy etc. revolvers. I meant to bring it to the muster for show 'n tell but never got around to digging it out. Don't have any of the speedloaders for it though.
Too cool! I like your kind of collection!
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I'm just thinkin' out load here folks . . . JUST FOR DISCUSSION!
Y'know, we do pistol reloads all day long in GAF. And the GAF is a rifle focused organization. How about more empasis on the rifle in the "Expansion" match? Doing movement up the range we cannot do in the Main Match.
Keep the rules and weapons as is for the Main Match. 15 rounds rifle, 5 rounds handgun. Classes for Levers, Milspec SS, and Repeater. 4 positions, each advancing 10 yards say, with some sort of obstacle for cover. Shooter must shoot the rifle in 3 of the 4 positions, choosing to shoot one postion with the handgun. Targets 25 to 100 yards. Shooter may choose to engage standing. kneeling or prone. 3 awards: 1st "Expert", 2nd "Sharpshooter" 3rd "Marksman" The handgun becomes a "New York Reload" for the rifleman.
I'd allow rifle reloading on the move, as long as the chamber is kept empty. (not SS obviously.) This is debatable of course.
It's already in planning for our deparment muster next year. I'm also looking into an individual decision driven scenario such as the buckskinners do. Sort of a modified "Hogan's Alley" If we can do it safely it could be a whole lot of fun!
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Yeah Jack, its a problem for me too, one of the reasons I'd rather increase the emphasis on the rifle, and drop the handgun reload, IE use the handgun AS a reload for 5 rounds. Shoot and Scoot rather than Stand and Deliver. Call it a "Skirmish Run" rather than some form of WB match. Stick with the Victorian weapons and loose ammo reloads. IMHO and still for discussion!!
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I still think that most of this should be up to the match directors. while moving downrange during the stage does add realism, it isn't pratical or even safe a some ranges. lateral movement could be done instead but again, it would depend on the range design.
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I'm also looking into an individual decision driven scenario such as the buckskinners do. Sort of a modified "Hogan's Alley" If we can do it safely it could be a whole lot of fun!
That's what I thought we were going to do at the Grand Muster. Good to see someone is going to implement some "move 'n shoot"!
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I still can shoot as well as I ever did, I just don't move very fast anymore.
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Me too Lawdog, that's why I say "Move 'n Shoot" instead of "Run 'n Gun"!
Stick with the Victorian weapons and loose ammo reloads.
The 1903 Springfield is getting no love here!
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I don't think my Eddystone 1917 is either.
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And I have tons of 30-06 brass and a bunch of lead 174 gr .30 caliber bullets to load up. Was hoping to load some up for next years festivities.
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My Krag finally made itself back to the place where I purchased it. Now, the next question is, when is going to get to the new FFL?
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I was shootin a Krag at the last Muster.
What kind of Krag you gettin?
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We're just discussin' things here folks, nothing is finalized.
Charles, we had a lot more movement planned, but the snow and mud took care of a lot of that. It helps to have stage berms as well, to allow movement up and downrange in addition to lateral. Thats one of the things we can really expand on with a sidematch, nothing else going on, allowing us to move more.
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You all did such a good job planning the '09 Muster that it caused me to have too much fun and forget about the snow. All froze up, I probably would have slipped and broken something if I tried to move too fast!
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Thanks, CI!
The snow changed a lot of things. It forced us to shoot fewer stages and eliminated the prone and kneeling parts of the match. Oh well, adapt and over come! It made for a muster I doubt any of the participants will forget it any time soon (if for no other reason than getting to shoot it in greatcoats and fur hats).
BTW I put a downpayment on a beautiful M-1898 Krag rifle this afternoon. I'll probably stick with my trapdoors for the main match. but probably use the krag in the side matches.
I want to emphacize what Col. Drydock said about nothing being set in stone regarding the side matches. General Scout, Col. Drydock and I have been discussing this extensively and noting the discussion here. When a decision is made it will be the correct decision for the best intrests of the GAF. A case in point: the GAF Postal Shoot revisions that will be unvieled later this winter have been in the works for over two years. And that reminds me there's still a few days left to register for the fall 2009 GAF postal match. The match ends Nov. 30.
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Wow, I'm offline a few days and sure is a lot going on here!. It sounds to me like we have come up with concepts for two seperate kinds of side match.....the "WB/Persing", and the "Skirmish". I like them both. Persing would be wn opportunity to bring out toys normally not allowed in GAF, and The skirmish line, using Victorian era weapons. I think there should be room for both, but maybe not is the same match as seperate side matches. But, the skirmish line type scenario, since it would use standard GAF firearms, could be made part of the main match, for at least one or two stages, if the range layout permits. Perhaps on a two day match, have Saturday be the standard type of stages, and the half day sunday for skirmish?
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Perhaps we need to run 2 skirmish stages: First the rifle, 3 classes, Lever, Mil SS, Mil Rptr. 4 positions, one standing, one kneeling, one prone, one shooters choice. 5 rounds each postion, reloading on the move. 2nd stage, same positions and requirements as the first, but all handgun, 3 classes: Autoloader-DA revolver-SA revolver. Winner has the best combined score.
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Perhaps we need to run 2 skirmish stages: First the rifle, 3 classes, Lever, Mil SS, Mil Rptr. 4 positions, one standing, one kneeling, one prone, one shooters choice. 5 rounds each postion, reloading on the move. 2nd stage, same positions and requirements as the first, but all handgun, 3 classes: Autoloader-DA revolver-SA revolver. Winner has the best combined score.
Another good possibility.
I'm assuming that since autos are included, then this one would also include the 1900-WW1 era rifles?(yes, I remember what my drill sergeant said abbout "assume")
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...It sounds to me like we have come up with concepts for two seperate kinds of side match.....the "WB/Persing", and the "Skirmish". I like them both. ...
Basically two names for the same concept. I and my ordnance staff (Col Pitspitr and Lt Col Drydock) are working on this very issue as I type. We want to design a side-match that is unique to GAF and won't be confused with the Wild Bunch matches used in SASS.
The "skirmish" concept, once we work out the details, will probably be used in the main match as well - it sounds like too much fun to limit it to just a side match. Some of our early Grand Musters used a simple form of this and we'd like to see it become the standard for stages at future Musters. Lt Col Drydock's posts reflect some of the ideas we're coming up with, but we're still working on the exact details.
Comments provided by the members in this thread have been taken into consideration.
US Scout
GAF, Commanding
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I, too, very much like the skirmish concept, for both main and side matches, wherever the range layout permits it to be done safely. Our local CAS range has individual bays with side berms, and we like to use downrange movement in scenarios.
With that experience behind me, I'll "state the obvious" - placement of loading and unloading stations is critical when this type of movement is considered. (Our side berms permit us to orient the tables so that gun muzzles are pointed into the berm, rather than downrange as they usually would be ..... Alternatively, if vacant bays are adjacent to the stage being shot, the tables in those bays are used, for even greater safety.)
Of course if movement downrange is possible, movement uprange is equally feasible (..... and necessary, for that matter .....) So, although I'm sure this has already been considered, I'll again "state the obvious" - withdrawal (retreat) movement is just as appropriate to our shooting style as advancing movement! In other words, the shooter can start in a downrange position and "withdraw" toward the static firing line, or can advance from the firing line and then retreat .....
Lots more room for creativity ...... ;D
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That sounds even better, but of course, the "uprange" movement part of the stage would require careful planning for keeping muzzles in a safe direction.
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Heads of an organization actually listening to its members. One can usually only wish for that and on the rare occasions that you do have it, life is good.
Just another aspect that makes me proud to be a member of this fine organization.
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That sounds even better, but of course, the "uprange" movement part of the stage would require careful planning for keeping muzzles in a safe direction.
The Grand Muster of three years ago(four years ago?) had several stages with movement and safe handling of long arms for muzzle control written into the stage directions.
One was a team stage where two shooters formed a team. They advanced downrange at charge d'armes, shot their rifle target sequence and then while still facing forward came to present arms, about faced then shouldered arms to walk back towards their beginning mark. At that point they came to ground arms and then placed their long arms in the waiting rifle racks before turning and continuing the rest of the stage for the pistol portion.
RCJ
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Heads of an organization actually listening to its members. One can usually only wish for that and on the rare occasions that you do have it, life is good.
As has been mentioned before (both here and elsewhere) The GAF exists soley on the good will of it's membership. If GAF doesn't listen to it's membership it will cease to exist. The other thing to remember is that the command staff are members as well. If we like something chances are pretty good that the rest of the membership enjoys it as well and vice versa. Finally I want to mention that if there's something that you think of that we haven't be sure to let us know. We're always open to listening. We may not alway agree, but we'll always listen.
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As has been mentioned before (both here and elsewhere) The GAF exists soley on the good will of it's membership. If GAF doesn't listen to it's membership it will cease to exist. The other thing to remember is that the command staff are members as well. If we like something chances are pretty good that the rest of the membership enjoys it as well and vice versa. Finally I want to mention that if there's something that you think of that we haven't be sure to let us know. We're always open to listening. We may not alway agree, but we'll always listen.
Hear, hear!!!!!!
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One was a team stage where two shooters formed a team. They advanced downrange at charge d'armes, shot their rifle target sequence and then while still facing forward came to present arms, about faced then shouldered arms to walk back towards their beginning mark. At that point they came to ground arms and then placed their long arms in the waiting rifle racks before turning and continuing the rest of the stage for the pistol portion.
So learn and practice your Manual of Arms, you slackers! ;D
RCJ, as I learned the sequence you describe here, Scott's and Hardee's 'Schools of the Soldier' would have those evolutions in this order: Shoulder Arms - Charge Arms - Forward - Halt - Ready - Aim - Commence Firing - Cease Firing - Shoulder Arms - Present Arms - Shoulder Arms - About Face - Forward - Halt - Order Arms - Stack Arms (put them in the rack). All the Manual of Arms evolutions begin at Shoulder Arms.
But then, I was a Regular Army infantry reenactor (read "anal retentive about drill"). ;D
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Frenchie, we weren't going for historical accuracy as far as the manual of arms, but rather the best way to insure muzzle control at all times throughout the stage. :D
If going to shoulder arms while facing forward the muzzle would be pointing backward behind the shooter towards their rear.
We had the shooter go directly to present arms, about face, THEN shoulder arms to march back towards the firing line.
RCJ
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RCJ, as I learned the sequence you describe here, Scott's and Hardee's 'Schools of the Soldier' would have those evolutions in this order: Shoulder Arms - Charge Arms - Forward - Halt - Ready - Aim - Commence Firing - Cease Firing - Shoulder Arms - Present Arms - Shoulder Arms - About Face - Forward - Halt - Order Arms - Stack Arms (put them in the rack). All the Manual of Arms evolutions begin at Shoulder Arms.
Frenchie, Didn't you leave out the loading evolutions? After all with Hardee's you're talking about 1861's and 1863's, right? ;D ;)
Upton's tactics superceded Hardee's in 1866 or 1868 as the conversion to Allin Conversions (pun intended) made a number of things unwork-able. Of course the loading sequence changes, but there were other differences as well. Shoulder Arms becomes Carry Arms; Right Shoulder Shift becomes Shoulder Arms; and in Upton's all the Manual of Arms evolutions begin at Order Arms.
But then, I was a Regular Army infantry reenactor (read "anal retentive about drill"). ;D
:) Can You guess where I got my start in this game? I'll give you a hint; Same as you only IWP instead of CW ;) ;D
(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/8913/hartclosefireqm6.th.jpg) (http://img241.imageshack.us/i/hartclosefireqm6.jpg/)
We actually did go through the manual of arms briefly for the purpose of muzzle control and saftey before starting the stage RCJ is talking about and my dog robber and I went first to deminstrate. My dog robber (striker) is my son who has been doing living history with me at Fort Hartsuff since he was 6 and started doing the manual of arms about then with a Parris Frontier capgun (stick on capbox removed so that it looked like Dad's M-1873) When he got big enough to fit into the smallest uniform the fort owned he joined our honor guards and was the most dependable soldier we had. Whenever I needed somone to deminstrate I used him.
If going to shoulder arms while facing forward the muzzle would be pointing backward behind the shooter towards their rear.
In this case Frenchie is talking about Hardee's shoulder arms which is the same as carry arms which puts the muzzle vertical. I think we did march out at "Present" but then came back at "Carry" I thought I had a photo of it but the only picture I can find is after we had put the rifles on the rack. The only thing I remember for sure is how my ears burned going back to the bridge carrying ammo for the beliguered men at the "double" and hearing the spectators cheering us on with shouts of, "Gamer, Gamer!" ;)
(http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/1719/253ou5.th.jpg) (http://img357.imageshack.us/i/253ou5.jpg/)
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Frenchie, Didn't you leave out the loading evolutions? After all with Hardee's you're talking about 1861's and 1863's, right? ;D ;)
Upton's tactics superceded Hardee's in 1866 or 1868 as the conversion to Allin Conversions (pun intended) made a number of things unwork-able. Of course the loading sequence changes, but there were other differences as well. Shoulder Arms becomes Carry Arms; Right Shoulder Shift becomes Shoulder Arms; and in Upton's all the Manual of Arms evolutions begin at Order Arms.
:) Can You guess where I got my start in this game? I'll give you a hint; Same as you only IWP instead of CW ;) ;D
(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/8913/hartclosefireqm6.th.jpg) (http://img241.imageshack.us/i/hartclosefireqm6.jpg/)
We actually did go through the manual of arms briefly for the purpose of muzzle control and saftey before starting the stage RCJ is talking about and my dog robber and I went first to deminstrate. My dog robber (striker) is my son who has been doing living history with me at Fort Hartsuff since he was 6 and started doing the manual of arms about then with a Parris Frontier capgun (stick on capbox removed so that it looked like Dad's M-1873) When he got big enough to fit into the smallest uniform the fort owned he joined our honor guards and was the most dependable soldier we had. Whenever I needed somone to deminstrate I used him.
In this case Frenchie is talking about Hardee's shoulder arms which is the same as carry arms which puts the muzzle vertical. I think we did march out at "Present" but then came back at "Carry" I thought I had a photo of it but the only picture I can find is after we had put the rifles on the rack. The only thing I remember for sure is how my ears burned going back to the bridge carrying ammo for the beliguered men at the "double" and hearing the spectators cheering us on with shouts of, "Gamer, Gamer!" ;)
(http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/1719/253ou5.th.jpg) (http://img357.imageshack.us/i/253ou5.jpg/)
Now I understand the difference . . . the position that holds the long arm upright against the shoulder along the supporting arm and with that hand gripping the wrist of the stock at the trigger guard, right?
Another reason I would love to have a quickie "School of the Soldier" instruction course applicable to the IW period.
RCJ
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Pitspitr is a GAMER!
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Now I understand the difference . . . the position that holds the long arm upright against the shoulder along the supporting arm and with that hand gripping the wrist of the stock at the trigger guard, right?
Another reason I would love to have a quickie "School of the Soldier" instruction course applicable to the IW period.
RCJ
Right!
(http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/8410/carry.jpg)
Looks like we'll have one at the Dept. muster next summer. I'd also be glad to teach one at amy muster I can attend. If match directors want to include this just be sure to let me know so that I can bring my Sgt.'s uniform. (wouldn't be dignified and all for a Col. to be teaching the basic school of the soldier, you know?) ;)
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Pitspitr is a GAMER!
:-[ :-[ :-[ :) ;)
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Looks like I might need to attend the school of the soldier too.....so I won't embarass myself by holding the rifle like an M-16 would be held......
Plus it's been 30 years since I did manual of arms with even the M-16, so chances are, I'd not get that right either.
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Yes, when I speak of drill manuals and the manual of arms, I mean Scott's, Gilham's, Casey's, Hardee's, et cetera. Who's this young Upton fellow and what makes him think he can write a drill manual any better than his elders? LOL!
Here are two links to Web sites on drill manuals, more can be found in Web search:
http://www.usregulars.com/
http://www.zipcon.net/~silas/links.htm
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I found a downloadable .pdf of Upton's at:
http://books.google.com/books?id=iaQNAAAAYAAJ&dq=upton's+infantry+tactics&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=yAshMyGAQs&sig=91H-0U6X-UnqCtWLlVb8RyPg5mo&hl=en&ei=KGYAS-iZLdGrngfG6KkS&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=upton's%20infantry%20tactics&f=false
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Check out my new Colt 1917 I will be using at next year's Pershing Match!
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Nice!
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I ead in the dispath on the Dept of MO muster that the new GAF guidlines for this type of match have been finalized. What are they? I don't emembe seeing a final vesion or list anywhee. I know a bunch of diffeent ideas wee talked about but my old brain cells can't recall any orders being issued. just asking for clarification Sirs.
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:-[ Eh-hemm... Yes, well, I sort of jumped the gun on this particular line. I anticipated it taking me longer to finish writing the registration information and get it posted. Then when it didn't take as long as I thought I forgot to take out that line. :-[ General Scout has the Ordnance Dept.'s final recomendations and I anticipate his revisions will be released anytime. In the mean time Col. Drydock's answer sums up the main points. I might add that if you are using one early era weapon and one late period weapon you shoot in the late period class.
Pitspitr has the final rules, but I can give you the basics
Expansion era match: 3 catagories 1900-1917
-"Wild Bunch": CAS levers and 1911s
-"Early Expansion": Milspec rifles and revolvers, loose ammo reloads. (Think Krags and DA Colts)
-"Late expansion": Milspec rifles and handguns, clip fed. Revolvers may use 1/2 moon clips. (Mauser 1898s, 1903s, both 1917s, 1911s, etc)
Outfits to match the rifles, No WW1 specific items allowed. (No tin hats or gas masks)
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Thanks for the update. looks like I will work on a lead bullet .30-06 load for the 1917 enfield if I can figure the "outfit" part out.
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Coon Creek Old West has everything you need. Its by far the cheapest outfit I ever had to put together.
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Col Pitspitr and Lt Col Drydock provided me with a proposed GAF Muster Director's Guide. I anticipate wrapping up my edits this weekend and returning the guide to them for comment. I had two higher priority projects come up but finished the second one last night, so tonight I'm back on the Guide again.
Their recommendations for the Era of Expansion side-matches was excellent. For planning purposes, what they have posted here remains pretty much on target. We'd like to keep the EoE side-matches relatively simple with regard to firearms and uniforms.
US Scout
GAF, Commanding
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I know this is a bit old of a topic, but I believe its a great one.
I'm a newcomer as a whole to CAS, and seeing speed freaks going nutso in SASS now with underpowered loads, and people in my area feeling the "outfit and persona aren't important, and why would you shoot a Walker Colt?!" Has needless to say left me a bit disenchanted by SASS as a whole.
I've always felt a stronger tie to both NCOWS and GAF.
Now, that I've made a semi-quick introduction, I believe it would be amazing to see uniforms that predate WWI with their appropriate battle rifles and sidearms. I think it could even be it's own class and a side match for we all know how fast 1903s and 1911s fire. But again, to be able to use these weapons as they are meant, and to cherish and preserve the world's history of this era, I think would be wonderful.
I, being a former USCG member, and firing 1911s know their speed and capabilities, and that a moderate 1911 shooter can be much faster than a quick SAA shooter and as such putting them together would ruin the "spirit of the game." But I would like to see those that put forth a great deal of time, effort and research in a pre-WWI 1900s era uniform get the credit they deserve. As an example, I have picked a USMC persona for the Wild Bunch in SASS and I'm going to light those targets up! But, I also have done that because creating a persona, getting the appropriate uniforms and gear for that persona are fun. Not "just a requirement."
Basically, it'd be great if the Wild Bunch style shooters could have their fun in GAF, it'd be even better if the pre-WWI shooters could have their fun with semi-automatic weapons of their era as well. It'd be great to take my ol'03 out again, and not just for hunting.
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Below are the Final GAF Era of Expansion Match (EEM) guidelines:
The Era of Expansion Match
The Era of Expansion Match (EEM) is designed to commemorate the era of European expansion such as the Boxer Rebellion (1899-1901), Philippine Insurrection (1899-1902), Second Boer War (1899-1902), the landing at Vera Cruz (1914), and the Pershing Expedition into Mexico (1916).
• The EEM is a variation of what is popularly known in Cowboy Action Shooting as a “Wild Bunch” match, but with significant differences in what firearms are used and the encouragement to wear an appropriate uniform of the era.
The EEM allows, and encourages, the use of MILSPEC firearms issued to the military between 1900 and 1916, with the exceptions noted below.
• Rifle and pistol only. Shotguns were not issued to military forces until WWI. If a shotgun is required, it and the ammunition will be provided by the Muster Director.
• Post-1900 design firearms may only be used in the Era of Expansion Match. They may not be used in the long range pistol or rifle side-matches, or in the main match.
• Post-WWI manufactured and issued MILSPEC firearms will not be used with the following exceptions only:
o Springfield Model 1903A rifle. Must have barrel mounted sights. WWII style receiver sights are not allowed.
o US Enfield Model 1917 rifle: an accepted version of the British Enfield P14 in caliber .30-06.
o Colt Model 1917 revolver: a later model of the Model 1909 that permits the .45 ACP to be used.
o Smith & Wesson 1917 revolver : a later model of the Model 1908 that permits the .45 ACP to be used.
o Colt 1911A pistol. Must be a basic model. Beavertails, skeletonized hammers & triggers, ect.) are not allowed.
o Mauser rifles must be of pre-WWI design. No WWII Mausers will be allowed.
• The wearing of pre-1916 uniforms is encouraged but WWI specific items are WWI specific are not allowed. Such items include, but are not limited to, steel helmets, gas masks, and other equipment or uniform items that were introduced and associated with the trench warfare in Europe.
• The respective Brigade, Department or Division Ordnance Officer will have the final approval of any firearm used in the EEM. There will be no appeal.
Era of Expansion Categories:
• Regular:
o MILSPEC Springfield 1903A1, Mauser 98, SMLE, etc.
o MILSPEC semi-automatics or revolvers introduced prior to 1916 (see above for post-WWI firearms permitted).
o Loading aids (3 round "C" clips for revolvers, clips for rifles, and magazines for pistols) are authorized.
• Volunteer
o MILSPEC Krags, MLEs, early Mausers, etc.
o Single or double action revolvers. No semi-automatic pistols.
o Loading aids (magazines, stripper clips, etc) are not authorized.
• Guardsman
• Rifle or pistol caliber lever-action rifles
• GAF approved semi-automatic pistol. [I know SASS specifies the M1911A1 only – but I think as the GAF we can provide a bit more latitude and permit other semi-autos.
• This category is designed to easily permit Cowboy Action Shooters to participate in the EEM without having to acquire new firearms.
Competitors should be encouraged to wear an appropriate period uniform that compliments the firearms they are shooting in the EEM.
• A separate uniform competion for the EEM will be conducted and one or more awards presented for the best uniforms. First, Second and Third place awards should be provided to encourage competitors to shoot in uniform, and to encourage those who make the effort to match their firearms and uniforms.
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Thanks Mr. Pitspitr!
I must have missed it if you had posted this elsewhere. I think this is a great addition to the GAF and will be awesome for all participants.
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Perhaps appearing soon in an "Era of Expansion" event - a full-milspec Canadian Mark III (M'1910) Ross Rifle, unit marked to Lord Strathcona's Horse ......
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Ross%20Rifle/rightside01_lg.jpg)
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Ross%20Rifle/rightaction02.jpg)
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Ross%20Rifle/buttmarks02.jpg)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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You didn't miss it Willie. This is a brand new post with brand new information. The command staff had been working on this all winter and it was just approved yesterday. General US Scout asked that I post the guidelines as he will be out of town for a few days and will have only intermitent access to the internet.
You will want to be sure to review the Grand Army of the Frontier Muster Guide thread as well.
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Jack, If ever I'm in your neck of the woods, I'd like to sign up for a tour of your firearms museum...er, uh, gun safe.
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Jack, If ever I'm in your neck of the woods, I'd like to sign up for a tour of your firearms museum...er, uh, gun safe.
I'll second that....and don't worry, I'll bring my own "drool towel"(Got lots of them, since we have a 1 year old crawling around here)
Question on the EEM and it's uniform competition....would it count toward the overall competitions(Iron trooper, Division competition) at a grand muster?
This match sounds like it's going to be great, wish I could have made it, even at the risk of seeing River City John trying to keep cool.....
EDIT: Never mind the question....It was answered when I read the Muster Guidelines
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Question on the EEM and it's uniform competition....would it count toward the overall competitions(Iron trooper, Division competition) at a grand muster?
Absolutely not! The EEM is strictly a side match to be used as a warm up for the main match.
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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApYp6_FgLOc&feature=youtube_gdata[/youtube]
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Below are the Final GAF Era of Expansion Match (EEM) guidelines:
The Era of Expansion Match
The Era of Expansion Match (EEM) is designed to commemorate the era of European expansion such as the Boxer Rebellion (1899-1901), Philippine Insurrection (1899-1902), Second Boer War (1899-1902), the landing at Vera Cruz (1914), and the Pershing Expedition into Mexico (1916).
• The EEM is a variation of what is popularly known in Cowboy Action Shooting as a “Wild Bunch” match, but with significant differences in what firearms are used and the encouragement to wear an appropriate uniform of the era.
The EEM allows, and encourages, the use of MILSPEC firearms issued to the military between 1900 and 1916, with the exceptions noted below.
• Rifle and pistol only. Shotguns were not issued to military forces until WWI. If a shotgun is required, it and the ammunition will be provided by the Muster Director.
• Post-1900 design firearms may only be used in the Era of Expansion Match. They may not be used in the long range pistol or rifle side-matches, or in the main match.
• Post-WWI manufactured and issued MILSPEC firearms will not be used with the following exceptions only:
o Springfield Model 1903A rifle. Must have barrel mounted sights. WWII style receiver sights are not allowed.
o US Enfield Model 1917 rifle: an accepted version of the British Enfield P14 in caliber .30-06.
o Colt Model 1917 revolver: a later model of the Model 1909 that permits the .45 ACP to be used.
o Smith & Wesson 1917 revolver : a later model of the Model 1908 that permits the .45 ACP to be used.
o Colt 1911A pistol. Must be a basic model. Beavertails, skeletonized hammers & triggers, ect.) are not allowed.
o Mauser rifles must be of pre-WWI design. No WWII Mausers will be allowed.
• The wearing of pre-1916 uniforms is encouraged but WWI specific items are WWI specific are not allowed. Such items include, but are not limited to, steel helmets, gas masks, and other equipment or uniform items that were introduced and associated with the trench warfare in Europe.
• The respective Brigade, Department or Division Ordnance Officer will have the final approval of any firearm used in the EEM. There will be no appeal.
Era of Expansion Categories:
• Regular:
o MILSPEC Springfield 1903A1, Mauser 98, SMLE, etc.
o MILSPEC semi-automatics or revolvers introduced prior to 1916 (see above for post-WWI firearms permitted).
o Loading aids (3 round "C" clips for revolvers, clips for rifles, and magazines for pistols) are authorized.
• Volunteer
o MILSPEC Krags, MLEs, early Mausers, etc.
o Single or double action revolvers. No semi-automatic pistols.
o Loading aids (magazines, stripper clips, etc) are not authorized.
• Guardsman
• Rifle or pistol caliber lever-action rifles
• GAF approved semi-automatic pistol. [I know SASS specifies the M1911A1 only – but I think as the GAF we can provide a bit more latitude and permit other semi-autos.
• This category is designed to easily permit Cowboy Action Shooters to participate in the EEM without having to acquire new firearms.
Competitors should be encouraged to wear an appropriate period uniform that compliments the firearms they are shooting in the EEM.
• A separate uniform competion for the EEM will be conducted and one or more awards presented for the best uniforms. First, Second and Third place awards should be provided to encourage competitors to shoot in uniform, and to encourage those who make the effort to match their firearms and uniforms.
Excellent work! :)
With due respect, I know that the shotgun did not play a major role until WWI, but it seems to have had a role. I believe it was issued, and used by the some units of the American military during the Era of Expansion.
http://www.olive-drab.com/od_other_firearms_shotguns_history.php
Here's a shotgun in the hands of a USN Bluejacket at Vera Cruz - bottom pic.
http://www.thortrains.com/online/veracruz1.htm
In addition, the Confederate forces who engaged the Union at Valverde, New Mexico Territory used shotguns to grim effect! Their Lancers on the other hand did not fair so well.
Respectfully,
GA
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We recognize that shotguns have probably been used in every American war but they didn't become an issued weapon nor were they used in any amount until WWI. But as I see it that isn't even the biggest problem with writing shotguns into the EEM. As the GAF goes more to the Skirmish format the second long arm presents a problem. You can holster your sidearm and cary the long gun. When it becomes time to use the sidearm you can hold the rifle in your off hand or sling it and still use the handgun. If you're using the shotgun, the rifle and the pistol, what do you do with the second long gun when you need to shoot something?
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Myself, I won't miss the shotgun at all. I only had one for CAS because that's the way the stages are written. Now that we have a GAF class at our local club, I never mess with the shotgun, just reload the pistol for the shotgun targets. I always figured that when a man went into a gunfight, he had either a rifle, or a shotgun, but not both.
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I still want to try forage scout in the main GAF match some time. Just a shotgun and side arm and blast away.