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Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The American Plainsmen Society => Topic started by: Oregon Bill on May 17, 2011, 11:06:11 AM

Title: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Oregon Bill on May 17, 2011, 11:06:11 AM
I have posted this in a couple of spots in hopes of drumming up some thought and discussion. What do y'all think here?

I find it really odd that the fertile historical period from about 1840 to 1860 is virtually ignored in the re-enacting/living history community. Pre-1840 you have the fur trade/mountain man camp; post-1860 you have the Civil War re-enactors followed by all the cowboy action shooters taking things up to about 1900.
But the 1840-60 period lies virtually fallow. This is the period that nursed Sam Colt's revolvers to perfection. This is the period in which Texas struggled with nationhood and Comanches. This is the period that inaugurated the great migration west across the Plains along the Oregon Trail. This is the period of the Gold Rush. This is the period when Jayhawkers, pro-slavers and John Brown spread terror on the Kansas/Missouri border. And almost no one re-enacts it. At least there are no mainline organizations that do that I know of.
Don't y'all find it ironic?
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Medicine Bear Charley on May 17, 2011, 11:28:15 AM
While I have never thought about it like that, I suppose you are right. As far as Texas they do have groups that cover this period, dealing with Texas Independence. Some fairly large groups heavily researched. You may check with them, as far as the others I think they tend to fall in with other periods or it's left to living historians at the sites.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: joec on May 17, 2011, 11:43:00 AM
Great point it was also the time of the Morons and Utah with Brigham Young. I know that the first saga of the Lonesome Dove series also was into this period with Dead Man's Walk and later Comanche Moon. I have the whole series and still enjoy seeing them from time to time. All of these are pretty much period correct also at least as far as I can tell with my limited knowledge of the guns, clothes etc.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Major 2 on May 17, 2011, 11:54:58 AM
I tend to agree.... Course there is the TEX/Mex era and the Repiblic Of Texas which is reenacted
( not pehaps to the Degree as Texas Indpendence Alamo, Goliad & San Jacinto)
Then there is the Gold Rush era in Calif.
Illinois supports the early Lincoln history, and at Nauvoo Mormon living history.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Shotgun Franklin on May 17, 2011, 12:32:31 PM
Try here;

http://www.sanantoniolivinghistory.org/

As mentioned this outfit mostly deals with 1835 'til about 1840.
Off hand I don't know of a group doing the Mexican-American War stuff but
the above group might or might know.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: St. George on May 17, 2011, 04:33:02 PM
There are several groups that re-enact Dragoon units, but uniforms and equipment to outfit a Dragoon gets kinda expensive, with relatively few outfitters offering much to prospective buyers - forcing them to go to high-end sutlers, but on the other hand - they wind up with very high-end, accurate equipage...

Most of this is done more locally, than on any sort of national level - with folks honoring their forebears' experiences.

Plus - these events chronicled late Fur Trapping, Westward Expansion and the Gold Seekers - all of whom were pointed towards a focused goal, where Indian encounters varied wildly - as did actual warfare.

I'd lump the Anti-Slavery Movement in with the Civil War reenactments, though - their activities are too intertwined to separate them into a their own category.

There's also the fact that for many in the C&WAS arena - these actual historical events aren't nearly as interesting nor exciting as the shoot 'em up version of 'history' as played out on the Silver Screen.

Folks re-enact 'everything', today - even down to Great War trench warfare, through to Vietnam...

Vaya,

Scouts Out!






Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Forty Rod on May 17, 2011, 05:27:59 PM
Great point it was also the time of the Morons and Utah with Brigham Young. I know that the first saga of the Lonesome Dove series also was into this period with Dead Man's Walk and later Comanche Moon. I have the whole series and still enjoy seeing them from time to time. All of these are pretty much period correct also at least as far as I can tell with my limited knowledge of the guns, clothes etc.

The Mormon expansion west is largely ignored, but they went into places other people didn't want and created civilized communities, established laws and government and schools, built roads and canals, dams and industries, strung telegraphs and aided in building railroads all across the country.  The Mormons even established currencies with printing offices and mints, had a working postal system before the Pony Express, ran some of the first stage and freight lines in the west, recruited and trained armies to be used by the United States, and set up colleges which are now the equal of most in the country. 

They were preceded only by Lewis and clark, a few explorers, and the mountain men, none of whom left much of a mark on the country.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Delmonico on May 17, 2011, 05:33:51 PM
There is stuff concerning the great overland movement both Morman and the Orgon/California trails around here all the time.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Drayton Calhoun on May 17, 2011, 05:36:58 PM
Excellent point all. The Gold Rush, the silver strikes in Nevada, as stated the Mormon exodus, in fact the initial westward expansion.  It is a rich time of our history. There was also a lot of confilict with Native Americans. It was also the true birth of the revolver's general usage. The Crimean war, The Walker Expeditions...
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: joec on May 17, 2011, 05:43:12 PM
The Mormon expansion west is largely ignored, but they went into places other people didn't want and created civilized communities, established laws and government and schools, built roads and canals, dams and industries, strung telegraphs and aided in building railroads all across the country.  The Mormons even established currencies with printing offices and mints, had a working postal system before the Pony Express, ran some of the first stage and freight lines in the west, recruited and trained armies to be used by the United States, and set up colleges which are now the equal of most in the country. 

They were preceded only by Lewis and clark, a few explorers, and the mountain men, none of whom left much of a mark on the country.

I agree with that though I'm sure not a Mormon they did add to the history of this country both good and bad. Their movement west is as important as Texas and California movements.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: WaddWatsonEllis on May 17, 2011, 06:45:29 PM
This was the period of the Califonio, Randheros, and an almost feudal system in California History.

Most history books would rather sweep this period off the books  ... they go  from Richard Henry Dana to Fremont almost in the same paragraph ... Feom Sutter to Statehood with little mention of the 'Anit-Greaser Laws' (later remnamed) or the outright prejudice displayed by both sides.

As a reenactor who occasiionally plays a Californio, I am constantly amazed at how little is known about the time period we are speaking of ....
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Shotgun Franklin on May 17, 2011, 07:15:51 PM
'Back Woodsman' magazine is kinda gear toward that time period. I know they have many ads about guns, gear and clothing fr that era. They have Rendezvous but I don't know where or how often?
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: JimBob on May 17, 2011, 08:02:27 PM
I think one reason this period is ignored to an extent is many of the signal events were confined to one group or one region and don't lend themselves to large scale re-enactment groups nationwide.However on the living history side I think if you look around you will find many state and local based groups bringing the period to life in local and State Park locations.Sometimes they're a little hard to ferret out but they are out there.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Delmonico on May 17, 2011, 09:49:12 PM
This is also the era of the mass migrations from Ireland in the potate famine, plus the start of gangs in the large cities back east.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: WaddWatsonEllis on May 17, 2011, 09:51:58 PM
As For the Gold Rush, it is still alive at:

Sutter's Fort

http://www.parks.ca.gov/default.asp?page_id=485

Old Sacramento

oslhp.net

http://sacramentogoldrushdays.com/


Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Oregon Bill on May 18, 2011, 11:35:41 AM
Wadd: I know there are a number of site-specific living history programs on the Gold Rush. We have gold history here in the Rogue Valley, where the gold rush town of Jacksonville sprang up in 1851.
But I know of no civilian organizations that hold independent events for private re-enactors. When I think of all the juried Civil War, Fur Trade and Colonial-era gatherings, I can't think of one for the period in question.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Delmonico on May 18, 2011, 12:02:45 PM
We have a local guy, Russ ledger that has been doing wagon trains across the country for a long time.  Some folks go for a few days only, but he's crossed this country on horse back leading wagon trains quite a few times.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Caleb Hobbs on May 20, 2011, 04:40:32 PM
I really love the period surrounding Kansas in the mid-1850s to mid-1860s -- Hawken rifles and Navy revolvers, buffalo hunters and Indian traders. Someday I'm going to build a two-wheeled cart to portray a trader. It would fit my age and impression better, now that my beard is turning gray.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Shotgun Franklin on May 20, 2011, 05:11:22 PM
I think maybe it's not that there's not groups and events doing stuff about this era as that the info isn't getting out.
I hear about a lot of Civil War and Old West events but just don't hear about  a Rendezvous or event about this time period.
I know that the week of March 6th there will be Alamo events. I know that the OK Corral Shootout will be recreated.
There are re-enactments of Battle From the Texas Republic days but I read about them in the newspaper after the event.
Bad Press or poor advertizing?
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Delmonico on May 20, 2011, 05:41:01 PM
Well one, most evernts don't have a lot of money to advertize.  However just for fun I typed in Renactment Events in 2011 and got pages and pages of event from all over and all different time periods.  Searches can be narrowed down to region and time period. 

Sometimes one just needs to do a little footwork, although now it's easy you can use your fingers.  Check local tourisms depts and such, most ain't hard to find if you put in some effort.  If there is not one suitable, find a historcal park that suits and find out about forming one.  Most places are glad to get events, often their budjet don't allow much to be done with out outside help.

I'll be at Rock Creek Station up here in Nebraska the 3-5th of June, that covers fur trade to 1880's, got involved with it about 15 years ago, was real simple, I called the park and asked if they had anything going on and if they wanted a dutch oven cook to demo, got lots of other folks down there that do other skills.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Jake MacReedy on May 23, 2011, 07:33:05 AM
You all have touched upon a subject that's near and dear to my heart!  For years, I've been wanting to start a reenactment group covering this period...even came up with a name: The American Plainsmen Society! To me, this is one of the most interesting periods in our history, especially when it comes to the West.  We could have "sub-matches" at shoots where we could use percussion revolvers and single shot pistols, flint or percussion, and use rifles like the 1841 or 1842.

Anyway, it's been a dream of mine, and maybe we can all make it become a reality.

Regards,
Jake, aka Ron Clark
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: wildman1 on May 23, 2011, 04:00:02 PM
Ya might try checking with the NMLRA, that seems ta be pretty much what they do, including reenacting. WM
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Caleb Hobbs on May 23, 2011, 04:09:14 PM
Jake:

That sounds intriguing. I'd be interested in hearing more about your ideas. By the way, I also like the name -- The American Plainsmen Society.

Caleb
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Forty Rod on May 23, 2011, 05:36:36 PM
Jake:

That sounds intriguing. I'd be interested in hearing more about your ideas. By the way, I also like the name -- The American Plainsmen Society.

Caleb

That leaves out the Rocky Mountains and the entire Great Basin.  There's a lot more history there than many people realize.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: JimBob on May 23, 2011, 06:23:40 PM
That leaves out the Rocky Mountains and the entire Great Basin.  There's a lot more history there than many people realize.

Indeed there is, too much really to be covered by one umbrella as far as forming a re-enactment organization that did more than cover one aspect of what was happening.Probably the single largest event of the period was the development and migration west on the Oregon Trail.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Oregon Bill on May 23, 2011, 06:32:38 PM
Jake: I'm liking your idea a lot. And I don't know why it would leave out the Great Basin or the Rockies. If you were headed West, you had to pass through both regions, with plenty of opportunities to peel off and settle where you thought you might make a go of it. Territory would run from Independence, Missouri, to Oregon City, Oregon, with trails, side trails and cutoffs in between, including the ones to the gold fields. You could go by wagon, by horse, by pack animal, on foot, by handcart, by raft down the Columbia (at grave risk to life) whatever. You could go stag, with pals or with family.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Jake MacReedy on May 23, 2011, 10:13:32 PM
Wildman1, I am a member of the NMLRA, and, in fact, will be set up there in Booth A66 at the Fall Shoot in September as a vendor!

Forty Rod, the name I picked is a catch-all, meant to cover everything West of Independence, Missouri!  I include the Rockies and the Great Basin, and even California itself in my vision!  Don't let the name fool ya, pard! A lot of those old Mountain Men became "plainsmen" of sorts after the fur trade played out, and they became scouts and such for the Army and wagon trains heading west, as you well know,as an historian yourself.

Oregon, I'm glad you like the idea!  I need to "flesh it out" and see what we can make of it.

As for it not being able to cover the era properly because of its diversity, the NMLRA folks and the AMM folks do a pretty good job of covering everything from the French & Indian War (and before) through 1840!  And that covers a LOT of ground and equipment changes & developments!

Who knows? We might have something here!  I'm sitting in Iraq right now, but will be home in June.  Hopefully, more pards will climb on board with this as well!

Regards,
Jake
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: wildman1 on May 24, 2011, 04:41:19 PM
I'm not as involved as I would like ta be, but I know that they have rendezvous and a living history section.  WM
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Caleb Hobbs on May 24, 2011, 07:24:04 PM
Jake:

Watch yer topknot over there, and come home safe.

Caleb
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Jake MacReedy on May 24, 2011, 08:10:04 PM
Will do, Caleb!  I'm here as a contractor on ops.  Still going at 58! (Retired Special Operations guy)

Thanks!
Jake
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Oregon Bill on May 25, 2011, 06:44:43 PM
Jake: I'm 58, too, but have led a much less interesting life, although I could tell stories about my first wife that would curl your hair ...  :)
Be safe!
Bill
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Jake MacReedy on May 25, 2011, 08:13:08 PM
Ha!  That's great, Bill!  We'll stay in touch about the American Plainsmen Society...who knows, it might just become a reality!

Jake
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Delmonico on May 26, 2011, 10:11:04 AM
Ha!  That's great, Bill!  We'll stay in touch about the American Plainsmen Society...who knows, it might just become a reality!

Jake

Let me know on it and I'll pass the word, should be some interest out here where the trails went through.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Jake MacReedy on May 26, 2011, 08:33:20 PM
Will do, Delmonico!
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Oregon Bill on May 29, 2011, 10:27:39 AM
I posted this on another board as well:

I think a group of BP shooters could have a mighty good time working with a pair of percussion revolvers, a percussion plains rifle and a percussion shotgun.
To simulate an attack on the Plains, you could open a stage with long range fire (say, prone from beneath a wagon) at a target at 100 yards. Indians would often wait for the initial fusilade of rifle fire then close while the defenders reloaded.
After the rifle fire, you could get up on your hind legs and open up with shotties and buckshot at say, 40 yards, then finish the stage with closer-range revolver fire.
You could also arrange a team event with one emigrant reloading the rifles.
It wouldn't take much to dream up some Gold Rush camp scenarios either. Geez, you could even require a miner to chop a rattlesnake in two with a shovel!
Just having some fun with this ....
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Jake MacReedy on May 29, 2011, 10:48:27 AM
Bill,

I like your ideas!  I hope we can make this go somewhere...sounds like it would be a good time.

Jake
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Oregon Bill on May 29, 2011, 05:38:05 PM
Just trying to think outside the SASS box a bit ...
 ;)
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Drayton Calhoun on May 29, 2011, 09:40:14 PM
Sounds good to me!
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Silver Creek Slim on May 30, 2011, 12:13:50 AM
The late '40s and early '50s was when my ancestors immigrated to the wilds of Wisconsin.

Slim
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Oregon Bill on May 30, 2011, 07:51:21 AM
Slim: Mine too. They left Kinderhook, N.Y., and ended up in Sauk County.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Oregon Bill on June 03, 2011, 06:10:13 PM
Great news! The new film "Meek's Cutoff" takes place in 1845 on the Oregon Trail. Roger Ebert gave it a very fine review.
Cannot wait to see it!
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Jake MacReedy on June 03, 2011, 10:47:47 PM
Sounds like that will be a good one to see!  Hope they get the firearms correct for the period!

Jake
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Fox Creek Kid on June 04, 2011, 07:49:27 PM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rhNrz2hX_o[/youtube]
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Delmonico on June 06, 2011, 10:06:51 PM
Was down west of the new village of Beatrice in the Nebraska Territory this weekend talking to some sort of strangley dressed folks.

(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/Delmonico_1885/RCS%202011/PICT0901-1.jpg)

He said he was from Missouri, I suspect he is a bushwhacker came up here to stir up trouble. ;)
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: The Elderly Kid on June 12, 2011, 12:26:46 PM
I love this period, too. It's been treated a bit in novels - Guthrie's "The Way West," McCarthy's "Blood Meridian," a few others. But it's Hollywood that established pop culture in the national psyche and Hollywood has rarely been interested in the era for a simple reason: the great scarcity of women in the West. There were Mexican and Indian women, and the Chinese imported "sing-song girls," but all of these presented problems for 20th century Hollywood. This left you with all-male stories, which would alienate 50% of the audience. The emigrant wagon train headed for Oregon (as in "The Way West") was about the only venue where women could be included in any numbers. Let's face it, audiences didn't care much about sodbusters. They wanted gunfighters and gamblers and adventurers. With the coming of the railroad, American women began heading west in large numbers, making the 1865-'90 period ideal from a movie pespective. Unfortunately, people think of this era as the "Wild West" when in reality it was the period when the west was settling down and getting its law. The real Wild West was from the L&C era to the Civil War.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: shrapnel on June 21, 2011, 06:48:48 PM
With the coming of the railroad, American women began heading west in large numbers, making the 1865-'90 period ideal from a movie perspective. Unfortunately, people think of this era as the "Wild West" when in reality it was the period when the west was settling down and getting its law. The real Wild West was from the L&C era to the Civil War.

The truth is that most people base their history on movies. It is sad, but that seems to be the most significant perception of life, especially  history of the West. The "Wild West" may have been wild from L&C to the Civil War, but that was only in respect to the lack of settlement. "Wild West" usually refers to the people and their activities, which does make the "Wild West" a period of time from the Civil War to sometime after the turn of the 20th century.

Tom Horn, for example contributed to the West being Wild and used a model 1894 Winchester and was hanged in 1903, certainly expanding what could actually be called "Wild" into the 20th century. Besides that, like it or not, the most popular attraction to firearms is that of metallic cartridges and not muzzle loading or cap and ball firearms. This has much to do with re enactment as well as the costumes following a more desirable style than that of the pre Civil War America.

America was a burgeoning country at that time and the whole world was watching. Everything America did, the rest of the world took notes. This was an industrious time, of settlement and discovery.  It certainly captivates my interest, however, I would not trade the time I am living to go back to the 1880's and try to survive the way they did then.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Fox Creek Kid on June 22, 2011, 03:48:13 AM
The truth is that most people base their history on movies. It is sad, but that seems to be the most significant perception of life, especially  history of the West...

Besides that, like it or not, the most popular attraction to firearms is that of metallic cartridges and not muzzle loading or cap and ball firearms...


Excellent points as well as the mere mention of having to use REAL BP eliminates about 99% of the people. Look at CAS. I'd say less than 1% shoot BP.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Oregon Bill on June 22, 2011, 09:13:26 AM
Kid: What do you think the percentage is in NCOWS?
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Fox Creek Kid on June 22, 2011, 10:16:16 PM
Kid: What do you think the percentage is in NCOWS?

I am not sure now as there is no NCOWS posse near me. It was NEVER over 10% at the most in the past.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Delmonico on June 22, 2011, 11:34:10 PM
To be truthful CAS/WAS really does not have that much to compare with living history other than dressing about the same.  Shooting lots of steel targets as fast as you can and timing with an electronic timer no matter what propellant is being used has very little to do with demonstrating old time skills in a public venue.  Most spectators at a shoot are there to observe and decide if they want to shoot the same steel targets against a electronic timer in the future or if golfing is a better hobby for them. ;)

I have never found in any historical sources of this type of shooting with 19th Century firearms before the 1980's, although like many other things I am open to proof of it happening with proper documentation. ::) 
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Delmonico on June 22, 2011, 11:55:23 PM
BTW most who are involved with Living History/Renacting consider renacting most often to involve trying to depict an event such as a  military battle or civilian gunfight from history where the people involved use blanks in their firearms, such as this depecting the Hickok/McCandless fracas at Rock Creek Station in July of 1861, and I will add it is at the spot it happened.

Living history is someone depecting old time skills such as this highly skilled blacksmith:

(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/Delmonico_1885/Hollenburg%202008/HBB3.jpg)

(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/Delmonico_1885/Hollenburg%202008/HB6.jpg)

or these guys sawing lumber with a mill powered by a steam traction engine:

(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/Delmonico_1885/Camp%20Creek/5152009427.jpg)

(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/Delmonico_1885/Camp%20Creek/5152009436.jpg)
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Two-Step on July 01, 2011, 08:55:58 PM
NO, NO, NO!!!!
Bringing this type of thing up might incite people to do some research and realize that we have been lied to by the U.S. Government, history class, and Hollywood. Not to mention that people may want existing cowboy shooting organizations to open up a division for histroically accurate DA shooters in much the same way they did for the likes of the "wild bunch". Heck, people might even want to start wearing historically correct rubber and rubberised clothing... or God forbid (can I still say God?) people realize that not everyone carried or even owned more than one gun, much less 4 of them at a time.

This post is little more than trouble making, with the idea of getting people to do something other than what is commonly and social acceptable, in accordance with Hollywood, government sanctioned history teachings, and already established cowboy shooting organizations. HOW DARE YOU?

Seriously though... I like the idea. Lets hear more about it.  ;D
I do have to wonder if a period accurate Adams revolver would be permitted. Not that I have one, it would just be nice to know.

Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: JimBob on July 01, 2011, 10:55:02 PM
Here's a reprint book ya'all might find interestin'

http://www.edwardrhamilton.com/titles/7/2/4/7242719.html

Tells ya what you need to take on the journey and conditions on the trail.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Delmonico on July 01, 2011, 11:43:18 PM
NO, NO, NO!!!!
Bringing this type of thing up might incite people to do some research and realize that we have been lied to by the U.S. Government, history class, and Hollywood. Not to mention that people may want existing cowboy shooting organizations to open up a division for histroically accurate DA shooters in much the same way they did for the likes of the "wild bunch". Heck, people might even want to start wearing historically correct rubber and rubberised clothing... or God forbid (can I still say God?) people realize that not everyone carried or even owned more than one gun, much less 4 of them at a time.

This post is little more than trouble making, with the idea of getting people to do something other than what is commonly and social acceptable, in accordance with Hollywood, government sanctioned history teachings, and already established cowboy shooting organizations. HOW DARE YOU?

Seriously though... I like the idea. Lets hear more about it.  ;D
I do have to wonder if a period accurate Adams revolver would be permitted. Not that I have one, it would just be nice to know.



Jim Bob, NCOWS allows the period DA's as well as having rifle and pistol only classes, the GAF does also. ;D  Both groups are very interested in the history.

Also type: The praire traveler, on-line version into your search engine if you want to read it for free.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: JimBob on July 01, 2011, 11:51:35 PM

Also type: The praire traveler, on-line version into your search engine if you want to read it for free.

LOL I got tired of cleaning the underline marks and annotations off my screen.Another good book written during the period is Parkinson's The Oregon Trail, written about 1840.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Delmonico on July 02, 2011, 02:22:26 AM
LOL I got tired of cleaning the underline marks and annotations off my screen.Another good book written during the period is Parkinson's The Oregon Trail, written about 1840.

On-line also. ;D
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Shotgun Franklin on July 03, 2011, 08:25:13 AM
I get Back Woodsman Magazine. They advertize a lot of events related to that era, maybe you just have to look in the right places?
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Jake MacReedy on July 11, 2011, 04:44:50 PM
I've been a subscriber to BACKWOODSMAN for years now.  And, you're right, they do advertise some events targeted at this time period, but they are rare things indeed!  The concept I'm thinking about is more along the lines of sort of an offshoot of the NMLRA, like the Fur Trade reenactors, where the timeframe of interest is the period of 1840 up to the time of the Civil War (without "stepping on the toes" of the NSSA folks!, and not getting into Civil War actions or uniforms, etc.)  This is what I call the REAL Wild West.  I realize there ar Mexican War reenactments and other such things, but I'm talking about the "civilian" side of things as well...like the California Gold Rush, the activity along the Oregon Trail, the activity along the Santa Fe Trail...and so on and so on.  There was a very interesting article in BUCKSKINNING Book IV about clothing and accoutrements styles of the Southwest that covered this period, that has always interested me.  This is the era of Bent's Fort in Colorado, and the boat traffic along the Arkansas River.  Who knows?  Maybe more interest in the era might even convince one of our gunmakers to supply us with a working "pepperbox" pistol!

Anyway, it's a dream of mine...may never get off the ground, but I like it anyway!

Regards,
Jake
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Shotgun Franklin on July 11, 2011, 08:40:11 PM
I was going through some old issues of BACKWOODSMAN, There were about 20 events listed in that one copy. I don't go that far back in History so don't keep up but it appears there are some events out there.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: The Elderly Kid on July 12, 2011, 10:59:11 AM
The first half of George McDonald Fraser's "Flashman and the Redskins" takes place in this era. The inimitable Harry Flashman becomes, by turns, a '49er, does the santa Fe trail, sees the destruction of Bent's Fort, joins the Mountain Men with Kit Carson, is a gambler/brothel owner in Santa Fe, flees south and joins Glanton's (spelled Gallantin here) scalphunters and generally gets into more perilous situations than any one man should. It's a wonderful evocation of the period and place.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: TwoWalks Baldridge on July 21, 2011, 11:50:50 AM
Well dog gone, I have been floundering around the edge of this topic for a couple months and then stumbled on this today.  I am a part of a 4 person dog and pony show that could not find a home.

We are interested in this very time period.  We are a poor lot made up of poor folks that can not afford 4 guns each.  We are not big on cartridge as we came from the fur trade era.  Now saying that, I am a member of NCOWS and we are all members of GAF. 

For our own we shoot targets for accuracy under different times and conditions.  We shoot long distance with front stuffers and closer with revolver.  We are civilian scouts, Indian Police and general ruffians of the Indian Territory.  A period that would cover the 1820 - 1865.  Would sure be easy for us to narrow this down to 1840 - 1860.

Count us in on the interest list:  The American Plainsman Society or any other name you choose.  We are the "Cherokee Light Horse" Company C  (for California)
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Caleb Hobbs on July 24, 2011, 02:22:06 PM
I was wondering how many folks are interested in actually pursuing this. If there are enough, I'd like to see it move forward. You can respond here or drop me a PM if you'd prefer.

Thanks,
Caleb.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: TwoWalks Baldridge on July 28, 2011, 08:53:53 AM
I was wondering how many folks are interested in actually pursuing this. If there are enough, I'd like to see it move forward. You can respond here or drop me a PM if you'd prefer.

Thanks,
Caleb.

4 folks from the Cherokee Lighthorse Company C.  Very interested.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Sacramento Johnson on July 28, 2011, 04:58:47 PM
Howdy!

I'm very interested in that era. My pard was thinking about doing some mountain man stuff awhile back, so I bought a Hawken rifle and got some other gear together. I eventually realized my outfit was really more from the early 1840s at the earliest, and I actually prefer gear from a little later on (like revolvers!).  I've been doing Frontiersman in CAS competitions the last few months striving for an early 1860's Texas Ranger look.  I could easily go back a decade or so and use that Hawken, and some earlier BP revolvers. 
Kinda funny when you think about where SASS is going; they're inching foward into the 20th century with their Wild Bunch stuff, and I'm heading further back...
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Caleb Hobbs on July 29, 2011, 01:18:10 PM
Sacramento:

It seems like we all migrate to some degree. I started out in Indiana as a 1790s long hunter, then moved West and switched to the mountain man era. Now I'm more interested in the Plainsman era, although admittedly a little later than what we're talking about here. More of a late 1860s, early 1870s hunter/Indian trader/army scout persona, although I've still got most of the gear I'd need to go earlier. If we bumped this up to 1865, I'd be able to use my Remington percussions, although that might open up another can of worms with long guns like the Henry and Spencer.

TwoWalks, thanks for the reply. I've sent out a couple of emails to others who have expressed an interest in this. I guess now we'll shake the blanket and see what falls out.

Caleb
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: TwoWalks Baldridge on July 29, 2011, 04:56:05 PM
Sacramento:

It seems like we all migrate to some degree. I started out in Indiana as a 1790s long hunter, then moved West and switched to the mountain man era. Now I'm more interested in the Plainsman era, although admittedly a little later than what we're talking about here. More of a late 1860s, early 1870s hunter/Indian trader/army scout persona, although I've still got most of the gear I'd need to go earlier. If we bumped this up to 1865, I'd be able to use my Remington percussions, although that might open up another can of worms with long guns like the Henry and Spencer.

TwoWalks, thanks for the reply. I've sent out a couple of emails to others who have expressed an interest in this. I guess now we'll shake the blanket and see what falls out.

Caleb

Caleb, the time frame up to and including 1865 and even beyond would still fit what you are looking at.  There were a lot of folks that fit into the hunter/Indian trader, army scout persona's that would have carried a muzzle loader and Remington or Colt percussion pistols. 

The actual shooting aspect will always be small club related.  The larger type organization could very well be based the same as GAF, more of an online presence for the majority of people.  It is like our small group, we like the idea of muzzle loaders and paper cartridge sharps with little interest in metallic cartridges.  The rifle move us out of GAF and the Revolvers take us out of the buck-skinning groups.  Meeting in the middle would be the plainsman idea you have.  Just thinking out-load through my finger tips.  ;D
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Drayton Calhoun on August 01, 2011, 01:23:17 AM
Interested here also! Just as long as nobody tries to 'short stroke' a Hawken or Wesson rifle, we should be fine!
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Jake MacReedy on August 02, 2011, 08:04:11 AM
Hey Sacramento!  How d'ya like that Beaver Bill tomahawk I sold to ya?  Well, fellers...and gal!...I'm back in lovely Iraq for a while again!  Sounds like we do have a fair amount of interest here!  I do like the idea of extending the period we're discussing up through 1865.  I wouldn't mind seeing a Henry rifle!  I'm still interested!

Jake
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Caleb Hobbs on August 02, 2011, 03:40:00 PM
Just so everyone knows, I've got some things started on this. I haven't heard back from anyone yet, and I won't elaborate further until I have some news to share, but I did want to let everyone know that the issue isn't dead. Keep your fingers crossed.

Caleb
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Sacramento Johnson on August 02, 2011, 08:00:29 PM
Howdy Jake!
 It's a jim-dandy hawk, and you should see my attempt at making a belt sheath for it! (No one will mistake my work for a professional; if I ever get to a Mountain man shoot, I suspect I'll get some points for my 'primitive'  effort...) As for moving the time period out to 1865, that would work for me, but you're going to get more cartridge  shooters (rifle and BP pistols with conversion cylinders).

Caleb, keep us posted!
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Tsalagidave on August 03, 2011, 01:26:57 AM
I do a Los Angeles impression (ca. 1852-57). I agree that this period is not really represented at all.

-Dave
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: TwoWalks Baldridge on August 03, 2011, 07:35:22 AM
Howdy Jake!
 It's a jim-dandy hawk, and you should see my attempt at making a belt sheath for it! (No one will mistake my work for a professional; if I ever get to a Mountain man shoot, I suspect I'll get some points for my 'primitive'  effort...) As for moving the time period out to 1865, that would work for me, but you're going to get more cartridge  shooters (rifle and BP pistols with conversion cylinders).

Caleb, keep us posted!

Good point, I had not thought of that.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Tascosa Joe on August 03, 2011, 11:29:57 AM
I would like to see the time stretch to '68, so you could use rolling blocks, trap doors in 50-70, and Sharps conversions. 
I dont have a Hawken anymore, it went away about 1985, but I still have my 1755-1760 Lancaster flinter though.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: TwoWalks Baldridge on August 04, 2011, 09:22:57 AM
I would like to see the time stretch to '68, so you could use rolling blocks, trap doors in 50-70, and Sharps conversions. 
I dont have a Hawken anymore, it went away about 1985, but I still have my 1755-1760 Lancaster flinter though.

Even within a central time frame, it would appear there are preferences that include percussion as well as cartridge.  Perhaps the time frame would be easier to work if it was viewed ...

Single shot rifle
revolver
Accuracy instead of speed.

The speed advantage of cartridge would not be a factor.

Some folks have muzzle loading rifles and some have single shot rifles like the sharps and rolling blocks that only fit into groups like NCOWS as a side match rifle.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Caleb Hobbs on August 04, 2011, 11:01:32 AM
I've been thinking about something like this for a many years. To me, the Plainsmen period runs from about 1855 to the late 1870s, although I can see where that time frame might create a lot of problems in real-time application. The 1840 to 1860s period would probably work better. I was thinking maybe 1840 to 1869, which was more or less the era of the percussion ignition. I'd also like to see an emphasis on historical accuracy. No flintlocks, and no firearms produced after 1870, and all firearms must be common to the time, and to the area west of the Mississippi. Black powder (or substitute) only, even for cartridge firearms, and in order to make it as fair for single-shot pistols as it is for revolvers, not to mention enhancing the shooting area – NO TIMERS. Also no gun carts or other modern items.

What I've always envisioned was of a bunch of frontiersmen coming together in an encampment of tents and tipis somewhere on the plains and spending a few days of camaraderie and shooting matches. Kind of like what I've seen in photos and heard about in a NCOWS primitive camp. This could be done in the imagination and with postal matches for a while, but who knows what might develop down the road.

I've emailed Marshal Hollaway asking about the possibility of getting a forum dedicated to this period. I haven't heard back from him yet, but I know he's a busy man. I'll write him again today.

Let me know what you think.

Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Jake MacReedy on August 04, 2011, 01:29:45 PM
Actually, unless you can come up with a Lefacheaux Pinfire Revolver, or an original Cofer (or the S&W Models 1, 1 1/2 and 2 .22's and .32's), there shouldn't be any cartridge/cartridge conversion revolvers in use.  "Last Stand at Saber River" notwithstanding, I believe you would be hard-pressed to find a cartridge conversion revolver with provenance to the year 1865.  It would open the door to the Henry and Spencer rifles and carbines...and I have no problem with that!
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Caleb Hobbs on August 04, 2011, 02:13:15 PM
Jake, that's what I was thinking, based largely on Mike Ventrino's books. It's one of the reasons I suggested 1869. Plus the 1865-1869 period seems to be when the Plainsmen really came into their own as scouts, hunters, and guides.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Jake MacReedy on August 04, 2011, 04:01:29 PM
I agree, Caleb!  However, B. Kittredge &Co. worked out a deal with Smith & Wesson (for the Roland White patent) and Remington to have a bunch of Remington Cartridge Conversion revolvers made up starting in 1868 (based on the New Model Army).  These were the 5-shot .46 caliber rimfire revolvers, sans loading gate and ejector.

Jake
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Caleb Hobbs on August 04, 2011, 05:14:22 PM
I've read, but don't recall how reliable the sources were, that town gunsmiths were converting the Colt Army to accept the .44 Henry cartridge well before the end of the Civil War, and even more so afterward. If I'm wrong, hopefully someone will step forward with the correct information.

My feeling is that if a shooter can document his firearm to before the 1869 date, it should be allowed. Of course the down side to that is the possibility of creating conflict over just what was done, and when. One way to avoid some of that would be to move the cut-off date back to 1865, as was earlier proposed. I'd like to hear what others think on this.

Thanks,
Caleb
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Sacramento Johnson on August 04, 2011, 09:43:17 PM
Hi all!

I see at least 4 classes if you go 1840-1869:
1. cartridge revolver and cartridge repeating rifle
2. Cap and ball revolver and cartridge repeating rifle
3. Cap and ball revolver and single shot rifle  (could sub divide this further depending on whether the rifle is percussion or cartridge)
4. Single shot pistol and single shot rifle (both percussion)

I think if you go to 1869 you're going to get alot of BP pistols with drop in cartridge cylinders.  You'll also get 1866 Winchesters as well as the already mentioned Henrys and Spencers. I suspect this would also be the biggest class (class 1), (and it does overlap with what SASS and NCOWS already offer/allow). This might not be the way to go if you want the focus to be on the earlier part of this time span. It might be better to go with 1840-1860 or 1865, and limit the hand guns to cap and ball revolvers (classes 2 and 3).  That seems to really set this era apart from what preceedes it and what follows it, in terms of firearms.  (Class 4 is already done by Mountain man clubs.) 
I don't have a problem with timers; as it would be a competition.  Agree; gun carts don't fit if you want the participants to look the era.
Just some thoughts...




Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: wildman1 on August 05, 2011, 06:05:44 AM
+++  ;D WM
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Caleb Hobbs on August 05, 2011, 10:21:44 AM
I don't see a need for different classes or modern, electronic timers. I'm afraid it would only encourage a race mentality, which is what I'd like to get away from. I'm coming at this from the rendezvous approach -- here are the targets, a hit is ten points, a miss is zip. Add it up at the end of the match and high point wins. A tie requires a shoot-off, or a knife throw, or a... Distances can vary according to the range, and something like a woods walk or a renegade attack can add a lot of fun to an event without a lot of extra work. Most stage set-ups I've seen would also work, just don't shoot it with a timer and include a few targets that will scatter the final scores.

I've set up shoots using watermelon gourds, squash, prickly pear pads, chili peppers, pieces of cork, wooden dowels, charcoal, ice (in winter), and even a skillet from a junk shop set waay out there, because I wasn't sure how much punishment it could take if it was hit too many times. I generally tried to set up a match as fair as possible; for every long range target that favored a rifle, I'd include something to favor a smoothbore. I'd really like to get away from electronic timer and racing the clock. With SASS, NCOWS, Western Three-Gun, Wild Bunch, etc., there are plenty of those types of matches readily available.

Nothing's set in stone at this point, and bumping the time back to 1865 is certainly feasible.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: JimBob on August 05, 2011, 04:17:46 PM
I see many thoughts on the persona to recreate and the firearms that would be representative of such a person except what was probably the largest group of that period,the settler with his smoothbore whether it be a surplus or cutdown musket or a boughten shotgun.Just a thought. ;)
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: TwoWalks Baldridge on August 09, 2011, 01:01:36 PM
I'd really like to get away from electronic timer and racing the clock.

Nothing's set in stone at this point, and bumping the time back to 1865 is certainly feasible.

The plainsman and the buffalo hunter prided themselves on accuracy, not speed.  I cast my vote for this.

The 1865 time line works for my group so we would also cast our vote for this as well.

Our little group also adds wood bows and arrows, tomahawk throwing, knife throwing and other items into the mix as well.   I think that a general guide line for the national / international group would work with individual groups adding their own into the mix.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Caleb Hobbs on August 09, 2011, 09:58:21 PM
It sounds like the consensus is for an 1865 cut off date, which works for me -- 1840 to 1865. I emailed Marshal Halloway last week about our own forum for the Plainsmen period, and he replied that he was out of town, but that it was a possibility. I'll write him again tonight and see what he thinks. I like your thoughts on accuracy over speed, TwoWalks, and JimBob, ain't no reason we can't find a way to include a settler.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: TwoWalks Baldridge on August 10, 2011, 08:58:19 AM
It sounds like the consensus is for an 1865 cut off date, which works for me -- 1840 to 1865. I emailed Marshal Halloway last week about our own forum for the Plainsmen period, and he replied that he was out of town, but that it was a possibility. I'll write him again tonight and see what he thinks. I like your thoughts on accuracy over speed, TwoWalks, and JimBob, ain't no reason we can't find a way to include a settler.

 ;D the "The American Plainsmen Society" is in the process of being added. 

The dates 1840 - 1865 begins where the fur trade groups end and ends where GAF begins.  I feel that covers the percussion period and the plainsman hay day very well.  I like where this is headed, thanks for the insight and work Caleb.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Caleb Hobbs on August 10, 2011, 12:46:03 PM
Thanks to the many of you who posted your ideas and suggestions here, The American Plainsmen Society is now a reality with its own CasCity home. Check it out, and let's see where this trail leads us.

Thanks also to St. George and Silver Creek Slim for the space in the Historical Society forum to get this new board started.

Best,
Caleb
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: boilerplatejackson on September 19, 2011, 12:31:36 AM
Here in Kansas, we have a diversity of living history. As mentioned elsewhere Fort Scott provides Mexican War era, as well
as Civil War era encampments. The opening of the Kansas Territory has many annual and bi annual KT battle reenactments held
on or near the actual battlefields. But the participants are limited to specific CW reenactment groups whom do a very good  job
with the civilian impressions. Live fire shooters they are not.

So far what we have is SASS, NCOWS, and mountain man rendevious. What we also need are specific Plainsmen events
that include 1840 thru 1869 for a variety of Plains rifles, handguns and fowlers. I think between KTMA, KMA, and NCOWS
we could have more plainsmen events. Defining what those events could be would be fun.
Title: Re: Why is this period so completely ignored?
Post by: Caleb Hobbs on September 19, 2011, 07:05:27 PM
I agree, and I'd like to see some of these events take place in Kansas. Right now we're talking about getting together at one event a year, at least until we grow a little larger. Like GAFs annual Muster. It's coming.