Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Frontier Iron => Topic started by: RattlesnakeJack on February 10, 2021, 12:44:35 AM
-
I thought of simply tacking this post onto my fairly lengthy North West Mounted Police Impression thread in the Barracks, but I am excited enough to make it a new thread, which I am then able to re-post here ...
In that NWMP thread I recently mentioned an opportunity to acquire a Uberti Schofield, which I proposed to use as a stand-in for the more historically appropriate S&W Russian Model revolver, thirty of which the NWMP acquired and issued in 1874.
Well, life certainly does work in mysterious ways ... turned out that the Schofield had already been sold, although the dealer does have a Russian model in stock ... but it is nickel-plated (not terribly suitable for NWMP issue ... plus, I have never liked shooting nickel-plated revolvers as the sights "glare" too much for my old eyes) and it is priced $300 higher than the Schofield!
Definitely needed to think about it ... although getting a Russian Model revolver was certainly tempting, the nickel plating and sizeable price difference were decidedly off-putting. On the other hand, Uberti top-break S&W models are relatively hard to come by up here in Canada ... a Google search will turn up a number of dealers with them listed, but almost invariably, when you get there you are met with the dreaded ""Not In Stock" notation ... and when you can track down listings of used revolvers they seem to invariably be "Sold" ...
While pondering this dilemma, I decided to run another Google search this evening and, wonder of wonders, up popped a brand new private gun sale venue listing for a nice used Uberti Russian model - in my calibre of choice, .45 Colt!
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/775x371q90/923/mw0Mwz.jpg)
Price is $350 less than the new Schofield and $650 less than the new Russian model from the dealer!
Needless to say, an "I'll take it!" message was promptly dispatched ... my only fear now is that somebody else has beat me to it ...
One thing does strike me as somewhat odd about this particular revolver ... which you may have noticed in the above photo - namely that the extractor spring housing below the barrel is shorter than it should be on a true Russian Model (or a Schofield or most other early S&W models.) Mind you, in my online researches lately, I have seen a couple of other Uberti Russian Model revolvers exhibiting this characteristic ... and tonight I think I have figured it out: Uberti must have made some Russian Models using barrel assemblies for the No.3 Frontier model revolver -
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/656x575q90/923/Yxsg5i.jpg)
Not a deal-breaker for me ... I do wonder if there were any such original "mix and match" revolvers made by S&W back in the day? Anyone know?
One thing I will likely want to do is get a pair of wood grips for this revolver, since the "ivory" grips are about as out of place for an NWMP revolver as the nickel plating ... Can anyone recommend a source (I do have a stock availability inquiry in at VTI ...)
-
I have a 2nd model Russian with a 1st model barrel. All numbers match and the serial number is way to high to be a “transition” model.
-
U.S.M.R.
I gather you are referring to an original S&W revolver?
Could you post a photo or two to clarify in my mind the difference between the 1st and 2nd model barrels?
Thanks ...
-
It’s an original S&W. The 1st model barrel is the same as the American. The 2nd model is the same as the Uberti Russian. I don’t have any luck posting pictures sorry.
-
Email your photos I'll post them for you :)
-
My unfamiliarity with the different versions of top-break S&W revolvers, and the proper terminology for their components, is undoubtedly hampering my communication here ...
Here is another composite image with the specific area of barrel assembly profile that I am referring to circled on each image. I have referred to this feature (incorrectly, most likely) as the extractor spring housing -
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/438x592q90/923/sn2V3t.jpg)
I gather that the correct "Russian" revolver under-barrel profile (as well other early S&W Model 3 revolvers) should show an elongated housing - with perhaps some difference in length between models, but all noticeably elongated along the underside of the barrel - such as is circled on the the center image. Similarly, if I understand things correctly, the very short version of this housing, circled on the lower image, was not introduced by S&W until the "New Model 3" was brought out.
Are those correct understandings ... at least with respect to original S&W revolvers?
The Uberti "Russian" revolver I am hoping to acquire, as well as others I have seen in photos - such as the one I have added at the top here - have that shortened/abbreviated housing (or whatever you call it) ...
Is anyone aware of that barrel profile having been used on original S&W models prior to the New Model ... or is this just an expedient adopted by Uberti, resulting in another departure from "correctness"?
-
" Are those correct understandings ... at least with respect to original S&W revolvers? "
you are correct
S&W discontinued production of the other Model 3s, American, Russian, and Schofield in 1877,
When they introduced the new improved New Model No. 3 with the short housing.
-
There were three "Russian" models.
The first was nearly identical to the "American" (which wasn't called that until the "Russian" model came out) except for the improved .44 caliber round; The .44 Russian.
The 2nd and 3rd were pretty much the same except for the shorter extractor housing on the 3rd model.
The modern copy is a 3rd model. (1874-1878)
Books
PS tried to post pics. Failed because file was a Jfif?
-
Books cut and paste your jfif to Word the click on the photo in word , and save as: to your Pictures it becomes a Jpeg
I didn't know the there was a 3rd Russian by name ...I thought they were New Modal #3 chambered in 44 Russian
I believe the Russian's had reneged on the last of the #2's in the contract... Japan bought 5000 of them
-
Third try. (Told to save as JPG but would change in route to a Jfif.)
Failed again. This time 'file to large.'
Books
-
Books photo
-
Well, Gentlemen ... I can confirm that "the deal is done", my payment has already gone to the the seller way out in Quebec, electronically (wonders of modern technology), and the transfer process is in the works. Should hopefully be on its way to me within a few days!
While waiting, I'll post a few more of the seller's photos -
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/700x332q90/923/EhZqUj.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/700x351q90/923/wUX49B.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/700x399q90/924/GKhg2j.jpg)
The all-too-brief material in Arms & Acciutrements of the Mounted Police, 1873-1973 on the S&W "Russian" revolvers acquired by the Force in 1874 -
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/675x587q90/922/cTOQAp.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/750x321q90/922/TgUxuy.jpg)
As evident from Books' photo, the "Old Model Russian" revolvers acquired by the NWMP were undoubtedly 2nd Model, as stated in the text in Arms & Accoutrements.
I see the shortened extractor housing of the 3rd or New Model Russian compared with the 2nd or Old Model, but the very short housing of the "New Model 3", as used by Uberti on some of its "Russian" revolvers (ncluding the one I am buying, and quite a few others I've seen in photos) is a definite anomaly, I gather. I assume they did so because all of their S&W top-breaks, for expedience, likely incorporate their version of the shortened extractor rod presumably introduced by S&W with the New Model 3 so that any "proper length" extractor housings in their revolvers are likely cosmetic only. If so, using barrels with this very short housing was either a cost-saving expedient (as suggested by some responders on other sites I have posted, who claim that this tends to be the case with earlier-production Uberti Russians) and/or Uberti used barrel assemblies with this short housing in later production to get orders out, if they had run out of barrel assemblies with extractor housings of more appropriate length.
I guess the "story" on this revolver will be that it needed its barrel assembly replaced and the only version available was from a New Model 3 ... resulting in an "after-market" anomaly ... ;D
-
Very nice, congrats glad it went your way.... :)
Has you located a set of wood grips yet ?
-
Interestingly, (to me anyway) there was an article in the Smith & Wesson Collectors Journal that mentions the opposite configuration. Famed pistol shooter Walter Winas preferred the extra barrel weight and shot a New Model Three with a New Model Russian barrel.
(Smith & Wesson Collectors Association Journal, Book 1, Vol. I thru Vol. II. page 251)
Books
-
I love the look of those grips. Might have to find some for my Schofield!
-
From Man at Arms. S&W American #2102 was the property of 2nd Lieutenant Thomas of the 7th Cavalry. It was marked on the frame 7th Cavalry. Thomas was killed at the Little Big Horn. It made its way north of the Medicine Line where William Sharpe obtained it. He was a Mountie and carried it as his service revolver in the early 90’s. It is marked W O and the Broad Arrow.
Abridged version.
-
Haven't located a set of wood grips yet ... backordered at VTI, and can't locate any other source.
Maybe I could trade someone ... but kinda like the idea of keeping these for Sunday, Go to Meetin' use ... ;D
I did come across these "Royalwood" composition grips in a GunsInternational listing, and have e-mailed the seller asking if they will fit a Uberti reproduction revolver ...
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/495x500q90/924/TAmDod.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/500x269q90/923/v5OQE4.jpg)
Anybody have any experience with "Royalwood" grips?
-
About seventeen seconds after I posted that, I received an e-mail responding to my GunsInterantional inquiry ... turns out the seller is N.C. Ordnance Inc. and they are very helpful ... They say the grips do fit repros, and sent along an exact-scale PDF outline to print out and compare to the gripframe, for reassurance ...
Will probably wait on ordering until the revolver arrives and I can do that check, in any event, but if anyone has experience with "Royalwood" composition grips from N.C. Ordnance I'd be glad to hear your impressions in the meantime ...
DeaconKC, and others ... N.C. Ordnance do carry an amazing array of grips ... here's a link to their page of Schofield grips - https://gungrip.com/search.aspx?find=Schofield (https://gungrip.com/search.aspx?find=Schofield)
-
WOW ... speaking of Sunday, go to Meetin' grips ... those Uberti white polymer grips that are now on my revolver don't hold a candle to these, which also showed up on the N.C. Ordnance site ... if I get the Royalwood ones for use with my NWMP impression, I can definitely see a set of these being added as well!
:o
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/450x497q90/924/lTYVZz.jpg)
-
Thanks! I really like those Mexican Eagle grips. Here is a link to Altamont. Their closeout page has some walnut S&W Schofield grips.
https://www.altamontco.com/pistol-grips/closeout/co
-
Well ... my latest shootin' iron has arrived!
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1000x526q90/923/iiMwht.jpg)
I am well pleased with it ... I'm told it shoots well, so I look forward to trying it out ... hopefully tomorrow at the indoor range I belong to but don't seem to get to enough!
I have ordered two sets of new grips from NC Ordnance ... the Royalwood ones for "everyday" use (particularly with my NWMP impression) and also a set of the checkered faux ivory ones that caught my eye ... images of both posted above in the thread ...
-
I would have been hard press not to order both myself....
I actually have a set of NC Ord. Colt style Ivory-Like Grips
and a set of S&W #3 on my NM
-
Grant, those white ones look like the set I had Gripmaker make for my S&W Hand Ejector
-
Yes, a lot of the S&W grips seem to have that general configuration (for what they call "round butt" frames ... as opposed to the flared "square butt") but I presume the exact size and fit differs from one model to another ...
-
RSJ, this is your fault. You just had to post that S&W with the ivory grips...
I fell victim to that siren's song...
(https://i.imgur.com/Jahu6BS.jpg)
-
RSJ, this is your fault. You just had to post that S&W with the ivory grips...
I fell victim to that siren's song...
Oh sure, rub it in ... you got your grips already, and mine will probably be weeks wending their way through the US Postal System, then languishing in Canada Cstoms clutches forever before being cleared, and then being finally being transported to my mailbox by Canada Post Snails ...
>:(
Mind you, so far I have received lots of encouraging updates from USPS ... apparently the grips have arrived at, and then departed, the Miami International Distribution facility three times now! (... on three consecutive days ...)
:-\
-
I do have a question for those of you who have Uberti S&W top-break revolvers ...
Having had the Russian to the indoor range twice now, I have discovered it is quite the "lead spitter" - i.e. apparently shaving lead fragments which get blasted back at me (... well, probably in all directions, but I tend to notice the ones that hit me!)
Anyway, this is much more of a problem than with any other revolver I have owned (most of which display no tendency to do this at all) ... so today I pulled the cylinder to specifically see what sort of forcing cone arrangement there is at the rear of the barrel, and if it might have to be eased a bit ... However, I found that there isn't any forcing cone! The rear face of the barrel is dead flat and you can literally see the rifling contours around the inner edge of that flat surface.
Seems unlikely to me ... but is this a feature of these revolvers ... or (as I suspect is the case) did this revolver somehow miss getting a forcing cone during the manufacturing process?
I am attaching a couple of photos showing the "non-existent forcing cone" and a couple of images showing the lead fouling/smears which develop (primarily in the cylinder flutes) ...
:o
-
Grant,
My Uberti Schofield came that way too. I bought a kit from Brownell's and cut a cone and now it doesn't spit lead any more. ;D
-
Seen them with and without. The forcing cone guy at Uberti takes a long lunch and the line keeps running.
-
They did that [no forcing cone] when they designed it instead of lengthening the frame. That way the cylinder could be lengthened to take the .45 Colt. Thankfully I haven't noticed any spitting from my Schofield yet.
And I would send you my walnut grips, but they would probably get there the same day as your own! {firm believer in Murphy's Law}
-
Thanks for the responses ... including your very helpful speculation on the cause of this intermittent problem, Chuck ... ;D ...
General, before I even saw your response, I already had the forcing cone kit loaded in my cart on the Brownells website (... well, actually, they now sell the chamfer cutter, extension rod, handle, and centering guide as separate items ... but they are all in my cart) and was just going to watch a few more videos before taking the plunge. The first video I watched was of modifying the existing forcing cone on a Ruger, and I was wondering if the tool would work as well when there is essentially no forcing cone to start with ... I take it worked OK for you?
That one video I have watched so far (... mannyCA, "The Accurate Revolver" series, on YouTube ...) mentions that the 11° which the Brownells cutter produces is optimum for revolvers shooting non-jacketed bullets, whereas various manufacturers produce their revolvers with different angles (presumably for jacketed bullets, or as a compromise) - e.g. Ruger use 5° and S&W use 8° ... so I suppose I can potentially use the tool to improve the forcing cone on other revolvers as well, since I shoot cast/swaged bullets almost exclusively anyway ...
This morning I got out the revolver again and, with the cylinder installed, aligned a chamber with the bore and looked down into it with a light ... the sharp edge at the rear end of the bore was quite visible all the way around the perimeter of the chamber mouth! No wonder this things shaves lead so much ... and spits so much of it back!
I could try smaller-diameter bullets too, I suppose ... but, in view of the non-existence of any forcing cone at present, I suspect that could only alleviate the problem somewhat, without eliminating it ...
-
>:( Oh Swell :(
Caution fixing this. We will all note the cut at the bottom of the barrel to clear what little "gas ring" there is (diddley and squatt).
Needs a SHALLOW cut forcing cone. The very slightest miss-alignment between chamber mouth and barrel breach will shave and spit lead. Not exactly on the "Fun Meter." I would probably start with a 5 degree cut and test. Then if necessary, go to an 11 Degree cut. There may be some cracking at that cut but I wouldn't see it as structural.
Stay Safe Out There
-
DeaconKC ... your willingness to donate your grips is noted, and appreciated! :)
Mind you, it appears that the Schofield and the Russian use different grip shapes - i.e. differences at both top and bottom ...
At least I haven't had a fourth notice from USPS of the package passing through the Miami facility ... so presumably it is now actually en route ... ;)
-
:) Well just Spiffey ;)
Wish I'd taken a minute or 3 to read the rest of the thread. Sasafrasafripafrasitt.
Anyway . . .
RattlesnakeJ . . . rest assured you can use the Brownells kit to cut forcing cones in virtually ANY barrel breach. You will need different size cutters for smaller calibers however. It will not/does not matter if there is some form of forcing cone to begin with. The cutter doesn't care.
Use plenty of OIL with the cutter. I actually use "Cutting Oil" but any High Viscosity oil will suffice. Copious amounts of OIL. NEVER. EVER. repeat - NEVER. EVER. for any reason, turn the cutter head backwards. Did I mention NEVER?? I meant to say NEVER turn it backwards. EVER.
You will only need to cut the cone enough to clear the chamber mouth.
CAVEAT: I don't care for (don't like) Uberti. The cylinder should never have been altered from original specs and the Gas Ring deleted. 45 Schofield was plenty enough .45 cartridge. Original spec Schofields will shoot BP just fine . . thank you.
-
Coffinmaker ... right now, this revolver is the worst I have ever seen for shaving and spitting lead ... so I cannot imagine it getting any worse!
As mentioned above, this morning, when I aligned a chamber with the bore and looked with a light, I could literally see the sharp edge at the rear of the bore around the entire circumference of the chamber mouth!
While I was reexamining the revolver, I noted various areas of lead build-up on the top strap and frame below the cylinder gap ... the siginifcant lead deposits and smearing on the cylinder, particulalry in the flutes, after a shooting session are already illustrated above ... and there are even lead deposit buildups on the upper part of the recoil shield at the rear of the cylinder!
-
Coffinmaker:
Read your second post after posting the above, and am somewhat more reassured.
I think I will order the kit and go for it .... keeping in mind to keep it to a minimum, to start with, and proceed further only with caution. (As in cutting lumber and fabric ... you can always take a little more off on a second go-round, but if you take off too much, it is damn hard to put back!)
And I will keep in mind to NEVER turn the cutter head backwards ... EVER! ;D
(Actually, I was thinking that this kit may have a sort of "built-in safeguard" against doing that. since the extension rod threads into the cutter head, so that trying to turn it backwards would just turn the rod out of the cutter head ... but I suppose it might have to "bite" a bit before that would start to happen, at which point the damage would be done?)
-
Brownells order placed ... initially I was only going to get the .45 cal bore bushing, since most of my revolvers are in that range but I added a .357/.38 bushing also, since I do have a few revolvers in that calibre range, and a few friends with some as well ...
-
Jack, this Uberti model looks very much like the "brevet" models of the Russian made in Belgium. Here is a photo I took from an online sale of one. As you can see, the ejector housing beneath the barrel is very much abbreviated like yours.
Jake
-
Jake, that does look very similar, doesn't it!
While searching online, I also came across some images of Spanish-made knock-offs with a similar profile ...
-
Jack, I'm sure more than a few ended up in the West...in both the U.S. and Canada!
-
Short update on this particular personal saga ...
I am still waiting for the forcing cone reamer set from Brownells ... but parcel tracking tells me it is in Canada and creeping toward me on the back of a Canada Post Snail ... ::)
The grips I ordered arrived some time ago ... unfortunately, the "RoyalWood" grips are a bit of a disappointment ... they look OK, I guess, but are just a bit too "plasticky" in appearance for my taste ... so I have renewed my backorder with VTI for a set of genuione wood grips. (Can't have too many grips, eh?)
On the other hand, the checkered "ivory-like" grips are quite nice ... a really secure grip in the hand, although a bit too white for my taste as they came. However, several soaks in a strong hot tea bath has made them much more "ivory-like". When not doing my NWMP impression, these will be my "go to" grips, for sure ...
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/645x585q90/922/CJhSz7.jpg)
I don't know if I mentioned it previously, but the holster I had altered to NWMP pattern (and which fit my original NWMP Enfield revolver so nicely) is too short for the S&W Russian ... although it fits into the holster quite well, the grip extends back too far, so the flap will not close over it and fasten. Accordingly, I am in the process of making a new NWMP-pattern holster to fit it ...
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/355x589q90/924/UHnarg.jpg)
-
The new "pistol case" (period-correct British military terminology for "holster" ... ;D ...) is finished ...
-
That's beautiful. Now I want one for my Russian. And some of those grips too.
Books
-
Books:
As noted above, the grips as received were very white, so I wanted to give them a more "aged ivory" appearance. I wasn't satisfied with how much colour the tea imparted, so I re-soaked them in coffee (heating it to or near boiling in the microwave two or three times, as I had also done with the tea) and am much happier with the look now ...
(A note of interest: immersion in such hot liquid softened the grips up quite a bit ... although it did not seem to reduce the sharpness of the checkering ... which actually permitted me to give them a very slight top-to-bottom curvature as I cooled them off under cold running water. That actually improved the fit, since they now contact the frame at top and bottom and as the grip screw is tightened they suck down flush against the frame.)
It seems quite hard to get a photo that gives an accurate idea of the final tone, because the camera seems to want to "color correct" and show them brighter than they actually appear to the eye ... I took a couple of photos against a sheet of white paper and, after somewhat reducing the blue tones the camera now wanted to impart, this gives a pretty close idea of their current appearance ...
-
How long in the coffee?
-
How long in the coffee?
Until I liked the look ... ;D
Seriously, though ... a few hours. Mind you, it did seem to speed up the staining to reheat the coffee (with grips in it) a few times in the microwave. Everything was in a Pyrex measuring cup ...
-
Another effect of the coffee was to darken up the brass grip screw ferrules noticeably more than the tea had done ...
-
Wonder if Nuking the grips helped soften them?
-
Grant,
Sorry I didn't see your question until now. Yes, I got along fine with the kit from Brownells. It's a shame we don't live closer or that you couldn't wait until June and you could have used mine. It's really easy, but go slow. It's easy to cut them too deep
-
Col. Drydock: Actually, the grips were softened the first time I pulled them from the hot tea. prior to any nuking, so I'd say it was just the heat ...
General Pitspitr: I already received the tool from Brownells, and have done my first "hone", but have yet to get to the range to try it out. It was hard to decide how far to go, since I was starting with zero forcing cone - hopefully I didn't hone out too much! Ideally, what I have done will work without more ... This seems like a good tool to have around for revolvers ... one thing I learned in "studying up" on the internet is that Ruger apparently uses a 5 degree forcing cone ... which is ideal for jacketed bullets but least effective with lead bullets ... so I might consider dressing out some Rugers, since I only shoot cast bullets.
I also got a .357/.38 pilot bushing, just in case ...
-
A quick update on the "lack of forcing cone" issue with my Russian ...
Having given the revolver one "treatment" with the reamer from Brownells, I finally made it to the range today to fire some rounds through it. Much improved!
;D
No buildup of lead smears in the cylinder flutes, or elsewhere that I could see, like I was experiencing before. Certainly no apparent loss of accuracy ... indeed, I'd say accuracy was improved.
However, I did still feel a wee bit of "spit back" from time to time, so I will likely open up the cone just a little bit more.