What kind of Carbines was the 2nd Cavalry issued in the 1850s?

[Doug.38PR]

In reading a book called Jeff Davis' Own by James R. Arnold, I got a lot of good stories and info on Texas frontier days in the 1850s with Secretary of War Jefferson Davis' 2nd United States Cavalry.   They were issued the light 1851 .36 Navy ball and cap revolver for a sidearm.  But what kind of Carbine where they issued?  There is one page where it seems to reference some kind of brass cartridges briefly (it was an offhand remark and I'd have to go back and find the exact quote) but I thought brass cartridges didn't exist for rifles in the 1850s. 

Were they issued the Sharpes Carbine?

[JimBob]

The Army did purchase a few Sharps carbines in this period.They purchased 200 Model 1851 Carbines in 1854 and another 25 in 1855 and 225 Model 1852s in 1854.Records show that about all of them went to arm the 1st and 2nd U.S.Dragoons on the frontier.When organized the 2nd Cavalry was touted as having the latest equipment,the newest issue Cavalry carbine at the time was the M1855 U.S.Rifled Carbine,a muzzle loader.

[Pitspitr]

The sharps was a paper cartridge, so if they had brass cartridges it probably wasn't a sharps. the maynard, burnside, and smith carbines all used metallic cartridges that were externally primed. All 3 were designed in the 1850's. without checking my references I believe that the Maynard was designed in 1851, the burnside in 1855, and the smiths in 1857. I doubt that I have any references listing which carbine was issued to the second cavalry

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[JimBob]

A quick look at a couple of sources shows that there were purchases of Burnside 1st Model carbines in 1858 and Greene Carbines in 1856 for field tests although it seems most went to the 1st Cavalry.There were very limited purchases of Joslyn and Maynard carbines for testing prior to the Civil War.

[Trailrider]

I can't get at my records of Ordnance and Ammunition in the Hands of Troops in the Field (not sure they run back that far anyway), but how about Hall carbines?

[Drydock]

None issued to regular units in the 1850s.  Not a cartridge arm either. Good thought though.

[US Scout]

In reading a book called Jeff Davis' Own by James R. Arnold, I got a lot of good stories and info on Texas frontier days in the 1850s with Secretary of War Jefferson Davis' 2nd United States Cavalry.   They were issued the light 1851 .36 Navy ball and cap revolver for a sidearm.  But what kind of Carbine where they issued?  There is one page where it seems to reference some kind of brass cartridges briefly (it was an offhand remark and I'd have to go back and find the exact quote) but I thought brass cartridges didn't exist for rifles in the 1850s. 

Were they issued the Sharpes Carbine?

They were issued several types of carbines including the Sharps and the Springfield pistol-carbine.  I did quite a bit of research on the 2nd some years ago - need to go find my notes.  There were usually two companies each issued with the same carbine so there was quite a mix at any given time.

[CPL Jayhawker Jake]

Hello all,

Not sure if this helps, but Osprey's US Dragoons 1833-1855 by John Langellier (part of their Men-at-Arms series) mentions weapons of the 2nd Cavalry a few times:

"The Perry Carbine was one of three other options issued to select companies of the First and Second Cavalry Regiments in 1855.  The other arms were the Merrill, Latrobe & Thomas .54 Caliber breech loading percussion carbine and the 1855 Springfield rifle-carbine."

The book also mentions the 1855 Springfield pistol-carbine being used by the Cavalry.  It doesn't really cover much of the Second Cavalry, as the book only covers though 1855, but I don't see any mention of metallic cartridge using carbines.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I seem to recall that "cavalry" were not part of the regular army until the Civil War.  Googled a bit and found that the title was 2d Dragoon Regiment until 1861 when the entire army was being reorganized.  The 2d Cav presently claims to be the oldest continuously serving regiment in the army, and still maintains it's Dragoon roots.  In fact, as a Styker Brigade, they claim that they are still true Dragoons.

What happened to the other old regiments if an 1836 unit can claim to be the longest serving?

[Trailrider]

Lessee... IIRC, First Dragoons became First Cavalry; Second Dragoons became 2nd Cav; 1st Regiment of Mounted Rifles became the 3rd Cavalry, with again IIRC, the newly created 4th and 5th Cavalry Regiments. Not sure about when the 6th was created, but the 7th and 8th were added post-CW, as were the 2 black units, the 9th & 10th Cavalry, Cols. Hatch and Grierson commanding, respectively.  Both of the latter were on Grierson's Raid.

[JimBob]

I seem to recall that "cavalry" were not part of the regular army until the Civil War.  Googled a bit and found that the title was 2d Dragoon Regiment until 1861 when the entire army was being reorganized.  The 2d Cav presently claims to be the oldest continuously serving regiment in the army, and still maintains it's Dragoon roots.  In fact, as a Styker Brigade, they claim that they are still true Dragoons.

What happened to the other old regiments if an 1836 unit can claim to be the longest serving?

According to the U.S.Army Center for Military History the 3rd Infantry Reg't. holds the distinction of being the longest serving.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_US_Infantry_Regiment_(The_Old_Guard)#Lineage

It seems that both claims are justified, as the 3d Infantry suffered several bouts of inactivation.

2 CAV R   Oldest continuously serving regiment

3 INF R     Longest serving regiment

[Cowtown Scout]

Since our Scout Venture Crew 1872 portrays the 4th US Cavalry during the Civil War and Indian Wars I've done some research on the history of the Mounted Regiments.  So here goes:

1st Dragoons formed March 2nd 1833
2nd Dragoons formed May 23rd 1836
Mounted Rifles formed May 19th 1846
1st Cavalry formed March 26th 1855
2nd Cavalry formed May 28th 1855
At the start of the Civil War these were the 5 mounted regiments of the US Army.
3rd Cavalry approved July 29th 1861

Congress approved reorganization of all mounted regiments August 3rd 1861
Adjutant General's Office General Order 55 August 10th 1861 re-desiganted mounted regiments as follows:
1st Dragoons became 1st Cavalry
2nd Dragoons became 2nd Cavalry
Mounted Rifles became 3rd Cavalry
1st Cavalry became 4th Cavalry
2nd Cavalry became 5th Cavalry
3rd Cavalry became 6th Cavalry

6th Cavalry was not organized until September 1861
All other Cavalry units formed during the Civil War were volunteer units.

7th Cavalry was approved July 28th 1866 and Organized September 21, 1866

Scout

[Grapeshot]

I seem to recall that "cavalry" were not part of the regular army until the Civil War.  Googled a bit and found that the title was 2d Dragoon Regiment until 1861 when the entire army was being reorganized. 

Prior to 1861, before the re-organization of the US Army the mounted Regiments were as Follows:  1st and 2nd Dragoons, Mounted Rifles, 1st and 2nd Cavalry.  After the re-organization 1st and 2nd Dragoons became the 1st and 2nd Cavalry, Mounted Rifles became the 3rd Cavalry, Old 1st and 2nd Cavalry became the 4th and 5th Cavaalry Regiments.  See Randy Steffan's Series The Horse Soldiers, University of Oklahoma Press.

[FTrooper]

Back to the original question...but first, please toss that book mentioned and locate a copy of "Cry Comanche".  The one you referenced is not as good, mostly a plagiarizing of CC, and filled that is not historically correct.  Sorry to be harsh (especially if the author reads this board...but that was how I percieved it).

I have focused on the US Army Texas in the 1850's extensively.  It is a VERY underrepresented part of history and most of the information out there is incorrect.  As cleared up by most, the 2nd Cavalry was formed in 1855, this is the unit R. E. Lee served in.  They arrived in Dec. 1855 and served until they left in 1861, later they became the 5th Cavalry when the 2d Dragoons became the NEW 2nd Cavalry.  Thus the current 2nd Cavalry (longest serving cavalry regiment) has NOTHING to do with R.E. Lee.

Next I want to clear up why in 1855 two cavalry regiments were added to the two dragoons and one mounted rifle regiments.  For years people have asked why they just didn't make the 3rd and 4th Dragoons or the 3rd Dragoons and 2nd Mounted Rifles...its quite simple...Jeff Davis (the secretary of war) was a political genius!  Prior to 1855 "cavalry" in US military terms was a generic term for horse soldiers, NOT A BRANCH OF SERVICE.  It was applied to all horse mounted soldiers weather dragoons, hussars, uhlans, etc etc etc.  If you look at all the US Manuals before the 1850's the M1840 Dragoon Saber is listed as the "Cavalry Saber", and the accouterments used by the Dragoons and the Mounted Rifles are for the "Cavalry Service".  Is 1855 Congress conceded that the US needed two more mounted regiments.  It passed a law authorizing the Jeff Davis and the War Department to raise two additional regiments of cavalry.  The plan was that Davis could raise two more dragoon regiments, two more mounted rifle regiments, or one of each.  However, because of the small old army rules of the period, he would have to appoint officers to the new regiments based on seniority, not merit.  So if he raised the 3rd Dragoons, the senior LTCol. of the 1st or 2d Dragoons would have to be given command.  Instead, Davis too the law and applied it literally and create a whole new branch of service with NO prior seniority and could promote ANYONE he wanted from any branch he wanted.  Thus why the 2nd Cavalry had a Paymaster for CO and an Engineer for LTCol!

Next (and FINALLY to the point), arms:  According to most books, they show the official order to organize the regiments and equip them.  This was a dream and never really happened.  The regiments organized and equipped so quickly that the arms companies could not follow suit and keep up.  At least on 1855 order mentions breaking the Halls Carbine out of storage for issue to "the mounted arm" (BTW, I loved working at the US Cavalry museum)...which several companies of the 2d Dragoons took advantage of to turn in the M1847 Musketoon in exchange for older Halls! When the 1st and 2nd Cavalries were ready to take the field, only the M1847 Musketoon, the Hall's Carbine, and the new muzzle loading M1855 Rifled Carbine (not the pistol carbine) were available...as well as the M1841 Rifle know to have been carried by the Mounted Rifles and some companies of the 1st Dragoons in lieu of the hated M1847 Musketoon (come back to this in a second)

1856 inspection of Texas shows the companies of the 2nd Cavalry in Texas all caring "Rifled Carbines" or "New Rifled Musketoons".  About half the regiment was inspected, the other half being in the field.  Upon closer examination, the inspecting officer was probably using these terms interchangeably (since the M1855 Rifled Carbine WAS a muzzleloader) since ordnance records do not show any M1847 Musketoons rifled at US Arsenals until 1858. Also in Jeff Davis's Own, there is a reference to Fitz Lee carrying a rifled carbine with a swivel ramrod if I recall.  So it would seem that the most appropriate carbine for the 2d Cavalry in 1855-56 is the M1855 Rifled Carbine (again this is NOT the pistol carbine).

Now in John Bell Hood's after action report of his battle at Devil's River, and the company inspection of his troop a year later.  JBH mentions his men carrying M1851 Colt Navy Pistols and "Army Rifles", the inspection confirms his company was using M1841 Mississippi Rifles.  Beginning in 1858, you start to see large issues on the M1852/3 Sharps to all mounted regiments.

FINALLY, I will share my latest information from the national archives and such.  In 1855-1856 the Cavalry may NOT have carried M1851 Colt's as planned!!!  Again it was specified in the original order...but as we see, that wasn't fully executed.  While studying Army Belt Holster development I came across the 1855 specs and orders for the belt holster fro the cavalry regiments, worn on the LEFT side of the belt in front of the saber and drawn with the right hand.  In 1857 we see the holster most commonly associated with the Civil War come into existence, this is the one worn on the right with the butt "forward" (BTW, this is NOT a left hand draw nor was is designed so you can draw your saber and pistol at the same time..it was worn behind the right hip, like a modern "hide out" pistol, drawn with your right hand between  the flap and the butt).  In 1858 there is a series of letters concerning holsters for the Colt Dragoons, especially those fitted with the stocks.  Here is a synopsis.  The arsenal says they made a holster in 1855 for the New Colts Belt Pistol and the two new cavalry regiments, in 1857 they were asked to make a new sized for the MIDDLE sized Colt (emphasis added), and now they were clarifying that they needed to make a larger holster for the older Dragoon/Army size.  If there Cavalry got the M1851 Colt Navy in 1855, the what was a middle size colt in 1857?  IN 1855 Colt debuted his newest creation and desperately wanted a contract for this new arm he and his partner Mr. Root had come up with...what he called his NEW MODEL BELT PISTOL (the same term used by the ordnance officer to described the first holsters).  The long barreled M1855 .31 cal. Root revolver WAS smaller than the Navy (making the Navy the middle size)...and when approached by the government in 1855 for pistols, Sam Colt, an businessman, would have pushed his latest and greatest on them!  Also archaeological evidence from 1st and 2nd Cavalry sites from 1855-1858 seem to have alot of .31 cal. bullets!  Which means there were alot of M1849 and M1855 private purchase pistols, or the Army actually bought the Roots and by 1857 realized they were not fit for Army usage and replaced then with the M1851 and ordered new holsters!

Thus in conclusion.  The 2nd U.S. Cavalry in its first year of Texas Service appears to have carried mostly M1855 Rifled Carbines and M1855 Root revolvers! (we also know from the 1856 inspection that some had the new Hardee Hat and some hat yellow trimmed M1854 Shakos...but that is a different story).

Sources include, but are not limited too:
"Firearms of the American West, 1803-1865" by Garavaglia and Worman
Numerous army and National Archives orders and documents including ordnance returns, letters from the ordnance and Quartermaster departments, and inspections of Texas posts and garrisons.

Chris Fischer
F-Troop

[smoke]

FTrooper...that's some great info.  Thanks!  I know nothing about pre war arms.  Gotta do some research.

[JimBob]

Good post FTrooper,very informative.

[Drydock]

Great Information, and a great read, thank you FT!

[FTrooper]

Any time guys...having all this information and not sharing it is a HUGE waste!

1850's is still pretty virgin territory for research, I just happen to be a sicko that really likes it!

Chris Fischer
F-Troop