Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Darksider's Den => Topic started by: Gomezy3k on January 01, 2017, 02:38:56 PM
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Just wondering, I have a .31 Remington that I shoot and with the recommended 8 grains of powder, it seems awfully weak. I know these guns were sold as defensive weapons back in the 1800's, but would they really stop someone or would getting shot just PO the target? I know any gun can kill but it seems to me, that the chances of that little lead pill doing much damage seems awful slight. You would have to be pretty lucky to get a killing shot with one of these.
How do they stack up against a .22 long rifle? I would bet the .22 would hit harder.
Anyway just wondering if anyone has any ideas on these little pistols...
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Of course, from the laws of physics, such a small projectile wouldn't do much, unless it hit the target in the eye. OTOH, in the days before antibiotics and expert surgery you could die a long lingering death from infection. If an artery was hit, it could also be quite fatal. Would I prefer something with more oomph? Oh, yeah! But just the threat of a gun may deter somebody from doing something bad.
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Not too much different in power to the .22 rf. They have killed!
Back in the day, infection after the wound was pretty fatal.
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My Dear Gomez -
As Sir C has pointed out, it is about comparable to the .22LR out of a pistol, the
30-40 gr hits 800-950 fps from a 3 inch pistol for just about 100 ft-pounds.
this fellow http://poconoshooting.com/blackpowderballistics.html
got these results:
.31 pocket 1858.......15 gr pyrodex......... 52 gr .323 ball.....770 ft/s avg...... 68 ft/lbs
.31 Pocket 1858 15 grains 3F Triple 7 49 gr, buck .32 811 ft/s 73 ft-lbs
this fellow reports http://www.wideopenspaces.com/practical-uses-cap-and-ball-revolver/ :
"The 50-grain lead ball that is nominally .323-inch diameter is the most common fodder for these little guns, but 70-grain conical bullets are also available. Some shooters use 4F blackpowder that is normally used for priming flintlocks in the small chambers of this revolver for the best possible velocity. I have personally used Pyrodex substitute powder and 3F blackpowder with good results and the same is true for .36 and .44 caliber revolvers.
These little .31 caliber revolvers are best on small game though they are no slouch shooting targets at the range. The accuracy and power is ample for small game out to about 25-30 yards. Outside the target range, I have used a .31 caliber Remington loaded with 10 grains of powder and a 50-grain ball to dispatch rabbit in my traps, and one brain shot does the job. Another virtue of the .31 is the small ball and relatively low velocity means that if the shot is not perfect on game, it is not terribly destructive on meat."
some folks like to compare the .31 BP pistols to the .32 ACP, but even the scoffed .32 ACP achieves more than 120 ft-lb
60 gr (4 g) JHP[1] 1,100 ft/s (335 m/s) 161 ft·lbf (218 J)
65 gr (4 g) JHP[2] 925 ft/s (282 m/s) 123 ft·lbf (167 J)
73 gr (5 g) FMJ[3] 984 ft/s (300 m/s) 158 ft·lbf (214 J)
73 gr (5 g) FMJ[4] 1,043 ft/s (318 m/s) 177 ft·lbf (240 J)
Then for the worry-wart, there are the number of cases in which Thick Skulled folks were "head-shot" with a .22 mouse pistol and survived.
hope this helps
prof ( show me the numbers) marvel
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Of course they could kill - that was why they were invented...
They did it admirably - pushing a filthy little lead ball covered with grease and pocket detritus deep inside the body cavity, to fester and cause sepsis.
Dying that way was slow and agonizing - and to be feared.
Could they blow a man out of his saddle like you see in the movies?
No - but not much could.
Scouts Out!
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Thanks for the replies...
I have always wondered about lower caliber guns like the .31's. the Sharps .22 derringer and the S&W Model 1. If I lived back in the 1800's, I am not sure I would want to stake my life on any of them. And shooting someone and then waiting around for them to die from blood poisoning or infection doesn't seem like it would be an effective mode of defense. Not to mention shooting them, and not hitting something vital, seems like it would give the target time to shoot you.
I suppose as a last ditch, going down fighting, they are better than nothing, but personally I would want at least a .36 caliber and preferably a .44 to defend myself.
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One thing to consider is the "recommended 8 gr powder". The loads recommended by Pietta and Uberti are nowhere near the charge normally used in these. I tried the recommended load in a .36 Pocket Police, I think it was something like 12 gr, and had bullets bouncing back at me from my backstop(Stack of car tires filled with sand).
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I tend to think that if the little .31's didn't work well, they wouldn't have sold well. I'm sure they'd do the job, though I doubt that they would stop a man in one shot unless you got lucky.
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Go to your next shoot, and ask around to see if anyone there would volunteer to be shot with 'just' a .22 Short, and you won't get any takers.
The hairy-chested all want to have a .36 or .44 to defend themselves a'la' C&WAS scenarios, but the truth of the matter is that most towns prohibited carrying while in town, and as soon as towns sprang up, that became a general rule, because townsfolk objected to being ventilated by drunken cowboys.
Seriously.
That means that what saw the most actual violence and the seediest dives were these pocket revolvers - carried by all manner of folks - and by the time these were seen, things had progressed well past the verbal stage, and the distance was 'Minute of Belly-Button'.
When a man is actually shot, shock sets in fast - that's a massive help in putting a man on the ground, with little or no waiting.
When all this is happening, it's exceptionally difficult for the wounded individual to return fire, and that's when he's been trained to respond - average folks aren't, and the realization that they've been shot often removes any resistance.
That even happens when they're shot in the shoulder - just like the Duke - but at the ranges most common, the rounds went into center mass, and the effect is equally dramatic.
Scouts Out!
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OK thanks for the responses... This is something I have been wondering about for quite a while...well at least since I got my little .31 Remington anyway. I was curious what others thought about the subject...
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Those little pistols could do genuine damage. Much better than a knife (which is always loaded). Usually if used they were used at point blank range. Take a look at a nail gun charge. It's no bigger than a S&W .32 and will drive a nail into concrete.
DD-MDA
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Also if you lived, the bullet would need to be dug out.
Those doctors probing for the bullet had good odds of killing you :-\
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Poison pills? No, not really. But, they were dirty enough to cause lethal sepsis. The whore that shot you might die at your angry hands, but that would be the merciful death. Yours would be lots longer and far more painful.
So, pay her.
DD-MDA
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If all else failed you could likely beat a man to death with one... or shove it down his throat and choke him with it.
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Bullet placement is what kills.
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Amen to bullet placement. My first fatal investigation in my LEO career was an AD with a 22 LR that hit the victim in the chest. Aslo the point was made about lingering infections ion the old days. A gut shot with even a .31 Remmie would eventually fatal from peritonitis of blood poisoning..
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Bullet placement is what kills.
Practice hard.
Aim for the eyes.
yhs
prf mvl
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There are a half a dozen places where arteries are close enough to the surface that a pencil stub can kill you. So yeah it can kill you fast enough you'll never lay a hand on the dirty dawg whut done you in.
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As I said, "Pay her". She's earned it. Give her a tip. She'll welcome you back.
DD-MDA
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As I remember hearing the story, it went something like this….There was a very small store located about half-a-days ride out of Lynchburg town traveling east along the James River. This store faced up to the dirt road with only space for the front porch and hitch’n post out front, it was right on the edge of the road. I recall passing by the little old store quite a few times when younger, always seemed unusual that it was right on the road edge. It had very narrow double front doors, a very shallow covered front porch and only one window on each side wall, these were also very narrow
As is goes, late one night, the local boys were playing cards on the board and barrel located in the middle of the very small building. The proprietor was sitting with his back toward the rear of the store, with a pot-belly stove behind him and a chimney stack on the rear wall of the building (I remember the location of the chimney). The rest of the players circled the table, sitting on wood boxes or chairs or whatever was available. As the game progressed there seemed to be a serious disagreement between the proprietor and one of his friends, the man sitting directly across the board from him, this man’s back, toward the open front doors.
A more heated argument broke out between the two about the last hand played, both shouting and then finally standing to confront each other. In the heat of the exchange, the proprietor reached into his cash cigar box on the board and drew out what looked to be a very small pistol….taking aim, he fired. The other man threw both hands to his mouth as he stumbled backwards toward the front door, he fell backwards over the front porch and broke the cross bar of the hitching post as he hit the ground.
The whole crowd from the store went rushing out with the proprietor leading the group yelling about how sorry he was to have shot his friend over a simple hand of cards. As they gathered around the victim, they were amazed to see him stand up coughing and gagging. With that, he stumbled to one of the still standing posts and heaved something that hit the ground with a thud. One of the men picked it up, spat on it to wash it off and found it to be a bullet slug.
The Story ends with all the boys going back to the poker game, apologies and “sorrys” exchanged….Oh, and more drinking (of course) to clear the boy’s throat…..the two gents involved remained the closest of friends well into their old age.
As for the gun and bullet…a .31, who knows, cap & ball….a rim fire, maybe…too little powder or old dampt powder, possible??
Just thought I’d throw this in.
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As I remember hearing the story, it went something like this….There was a very small store located about half-a-days ride out of Lynchburg town traveling east along the James River. This store faced up to the dirt road with only space for the front porch and hitch’n post out front, it was right on the edge of the road. I recall passing by the little old store quite a few times when younger, always seemed unusual that it was right on the road edge. It had very narrow double front doors, a very shallow covered front porch and only one window on each side wall, these were also very narrow
As is goes, late one night, the local boys were playing cards on the board and barrel located in the middle of the very small building. The proprietor was sitting with his back toward the rear of the store, with a pot-belly stove behind him and a chimney stack on the rear wall of the building (I remember the location of the chimney). The rest of the players circled the table, sitting on wood boxes or chairs or whatever was available. As the game progressed there seemed to be a serious disagreement between the proprietor and one of his friends, the man sitting directly across the board from him, this man’s back, toward the open front doors.
A more heated argument broke out between the two about the last hand played, both shouting and then finally standing to confront each other. In the heat of the exchange, the proprietor reached into his cash cigar box on the board and drew out what looked to be a very small pistol….taking aim, he fired. The other man threw both hands to his mouth as he stumbled backwards toward the front door, he fell backwards over the front porch and broke the cross bar of the hitching post as he hit the ground.
The whole crowd from the store went rushing out with the proprietor leading the group yelling about how sorry he was to have shot his friend over a simple hand of cards. As they gathered around the victim, they were amazed to see him stand up coughing and gagging. With that, he stumbled to one of the still standing posts and heaved something that hit the ground with a thud. One of the men picked it up, spat on it to wash it off and found it to be a bullet slug.
The Story ends with all the boys going back to the poker game, apologies and “sorrys” exchanged….Oh, and more drinking (of course) to clear the boy’s throat…..the two gents involved remained the closest of friends well into their old age.
As for the gun and bullet…a .31, who knows, cap & ball….a rim fire, maybe…too little powder or old dampt powder, possible??
Just thought I’d throw this in.
I've heard that the .41 rimfire was rather anemic. I don't have any personal experience of course, but I recall hearing some where that a thick coat could stop it. Again, not sure if it's true or not, but if so then maybe that's our culprit?
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Go back and read Post #4.
These rounds wouldn't've stayed in production if they hadn't done their job.
Scouts Out!
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Shot placement being the key.
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I have always loved the little Anemic Caliber.
Never had any tackers willing to put their money were their mouth is . :o
A little .31 round ball with a full load of FFFF will pass threw a 2x4 at 5 feet .
Just sayin .
Rooster
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they would definitely stop someone! all you have to do to stop me is say you have a gun in your pocket, I don't need to know the caliber, you don't even have to show it to me, I will stop! and leave you alone,,,,,,,,,,,
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Bullet placement is what kills...
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Absolutely. Bullet Placement. Of course, So so bullet placement combined with a rampant Staph infection and or Peritonitis might also tend to ruin yer weekend ::)
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Both the Remington and Colt were mentioned in various biographies and histories as pistols carried in a chaps pocket by working cowboys (a role in some cases later filled by various .32 autos). They weren't carried for offensive use, or known for excessive power, but you can find accounts of them being used to turn a charging steer, finish off injured livestock, and for impromptu shooting matches. They also figured in more than a few (usually drunken) disputes between cowhands, or cowhands and townies.
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Firstly the .22 - its a wickedly deadly misunderstood cartridge. I would NEVER take one hunting big game with me but it was the only rifle with me on my property one day when I saw the biggest pig I have ever shot - and have shot many - well being in a bad mood that day and 'wanting to kill something' I just had to have a go - the .22 was a single shot BSA. I fired a well placed shot and the pig travelled about 25 yards before dropping. The bullet had pierced the thick skin, severed an artery and become lodged againt the skin on the opposeite side of the abdnominal cavity, almost penetrating . What surprised me was the penetration. Incidently I normally carried back then a .401 Winchester and now days either a 50-70 (actually .52 cal.) Sharps or a .303
Now as to the .31 - I would not want to be hit by one and it depends entirely WHERE the bullet strikes - if it hits the right spot then your dead dead dead - if they were not effective then they would not have been made!
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Colt produced in excess of 320,00 of their 1849 Pocket model (their most prolific percussion pistol) so some buyers must have been happy with their performance.
Chance
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As I remember hearing the story, it went something like this….There was a very small store located about half-a-days ride out of Lynchburg town traveling east along the James River. This store faced up to the dirt road with only space for the front porch and hitch’n post out front, it was right on the edge of the road. I recall passing by the little old store quite a few times when younger, always seemed unusual that it was right on the road edge. It had very narrow double front doors, a very shallow covered front porch and only one window on each side wall, these were also very narrow
As is goes, late one night, the local boys were playing cards on the board and barrel located in the middle of the very small building. The proprietor was sitting with his back toward the rear of the store, with a pot-belly stove behind him and a chimney stack on the rear wall of the building (I remember the location of the chimney). The rest of the players circled the table, sitting on wood boxes or chairs or whatever was available. As the game progressed there seemed to be a serious disagreement between the proprietor and one of his friends, the man sitting directly across the board from him, this man’s back, toward the open front doors.
A more heated argument broke out between the two about the last hand played, both shouting and then finally standing to confront each other. In the heat of the exchange, the proprietor reached into his cash cigar box on the board and drew out what looked to be a very small pistol….taking aim, he fired. The other man threw both hands to his mouth as he stumbled backwards toward the front door, he fell backwards over the front porch and broke the cross bar of the hitching post as he hit the ground.
The whole crowd from the store went rushing out with the proprietor leading the group yelling about how sorry he was to have shot his friend over a simple hand of cards. As they gathered around the victim, they were amazed to see him stand up coughing and gagging. With that, he stumbled to one of the still standing posts and heaved something that hit the ground with a thud. One of the men picked it up, spat on it to wash it off and found it to be a bullet slug.
The Story ends with all the boys going back to the poker game, apologies and “sorrys” exchanged….Oh, and more drinking (of course) to clear the boy’s throat…..the two gents involved remained the closest of friends well into their old age.
As for the gun and bullet…a .31, who knows, cap & ball….a rim fire, maybe…too little powder or old dampt powder, possible??
Just thought I’d throw this in.
Documentation? Or is this a friend of my neighbor's, wife's, coworker's third cousin (twice removed) heard it at a bus station story?
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Absolutely. Bullet Placement. Of course, So so bullet placement combined with a rampant Staph infection and or Peritonitis might also tend to ruin yer weekend ::)
Yeah - who'd want to be guy shot by a .31 that carried fabric into the wound cavity? Death would not be immediate, but the grim reaper has time ..... and there t'waren't no antibiotics then.
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I just shot a '49 Colt in the first N-SSA match of the season down in Ga. It's the short barrel version. Got hits with it too! It's about like shooting 22 shorts. The balls would embed themselves about 1/4" into the 2X4 target frames at 25 yards.
According to my chronograph, 10 gr. of Schutzen FFF and a .320 ball produce a wicked 555 fps at 10'.
Would this kill someone, you bet, with the right shot placement. The comments about shot placement are right on though.
There is an account of two S.C. officers fighting a duel early in the war with S&W #1s. One was hit and succumbed to infection about a week later.
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Keep in mind that most folks in those days didnt have 4-8” of fat everywhere so a belly shot would get inside and do its harm. Gut shot was as bad as it could get.
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Death from infection would be terrible. Yes, you may live to inflict return damage, but you'd die with horrible pain that would only increase till you expired. For those that knew and respected those little guns, they didn't trifle with someone point them at them.
DD-MDA