Earliest centerfire revolver

[CWC]

For some reason I was thinking that most of the revolvers prior to the Colt SAA were rimfire, but a friend pointed out how wrong that was. Now I've gotten lost trying to research the different centerfire options that existed prior to 1873.

What was the earliest centerfire revolver that would have been seen being carried by a civilian in the west?

[RoyceP]

Probably a British "Bulldog" revolver. They were double action and chambered in .450 Adams. There were earlier Colt revolvers too, the Model 1871 Open Top series predated the SAA by a couple years and it was chambered for 38 Colt and 44 Colt centerfire calibers. The Colt Cloverleaf revolvers were also chambered for centerfire rounds. 

[DJ]

Well, AI told me the 1875 Remington is the world's oldest centerfire revolver.  But according to arithmetic, the Smith & Wesson Model 3 (1870-ish) and the French M1868 Galand are both older. 

As to the earliest that western civilians would have been seen carrying either of those, I have no clue, but I suspect it would depend on who they knew or how rich they were.

[Coffinmaker]

   Sorry Royce

The Colt 1871-72 Open Top was NOT chambered in 38 Colt nor 44 Colt.  Except for perhaps a one-off tool room example.  The Open Top was only chambered for 44 Henry Flat Rim Fire.

[Abilene]

I was wondering if "Cartridges of the World" would have this info. Found this free download of the 1997 version: https://archive.org/details/CartridgesOfTheWorld8thEdition1997

Earlier in the book, this statement is made:  "The centerfire cartridge, a necessary prerequisite to our modern ammunition, evolved during the 1860s and 1870s."

Glancing through it in the obsolete cartridge chapter, I noted: 380 Revolver 1868, 44 Webley 1868, 450 Revolver / 450 Adams 1868.   But the earliest I saw was 50 Remington for the rolling block pistol in 1867.  So possibly some of those European revolvers could have been out west.

[Galloway]

For some reason I was thinking that most of the revolvers prior to the Colt SAA were rimfire, but a friend pointed out how wrong that was. Now I've gotten lost trying to research the different centerfire options that existed prior to 1873.

What was the earliest centerfire revolver that would have been seen being carried by a civilian in the west?

Non martial revolvers carried by civilians typically werent visible and your correct prior to 1873 most were indeed rimfire. 44american and 44colt were pre 1873 but not by much. Colts new line and s&w 1 1/2 and 3 single actions really boosted centerfire popularity in the mid to late 1870s.

[Garret]

Greetings All,

The earliest centerfire I've come across very likely never made it "out west": the French Devisme 1859 six shot that fired a thick rim 11/12mm cartridge similar to the thick rim Galand 12mm.  It was a cartridge version of his earlier percussion model.  The striker was internal to the action and had an external hammer that was thumbed back to advance the cylinder and cock the action.  I believe that there were a few of the percussion versions that made it over here for the War of Unpleasantness, but off-hand  I can't bring any references to mind.

[DJ]

A number of sources state that Galand and Sommerville revolvers were given to George and Tom Custer in 1869 as tokens of appreciation for guiding Lord Paget on a buffalo hunt.  Not as early as an 1859 Devisme, but the story places four of those center fire revolvers actually in The West in that year.  Tom Custer's pair was auctioned off in 1995, so I suppose a civilian friend or relative of one of those Custer brothers (or a thief or card shark) could have carried one around at some point between 1869 and 1995.  But if you're talking about the earliest commonly carried center fire, you're most likely going to be into the early to mid-1870s with one of the American manufactures.

[St. George]

Think on this, as well.

While it's all well and good to daydream about locating 'the' most unusual revolver to use in a C&WAS match, 'style points' and all - what's going to be your source for ammunition resupply and spare parts?

'Back In The Day', foreign ammunition was pretty proprietary - even in Europe.

Sure, your Belgian dealer could likely source from somewhere beyond the borders, 'if' you were a good client - but getting it onto a vessel and transporting it to a hardware store in the unsettled West wasn't likely to happen.

Plus - what about when a critical part (and on foreign-built stuff, 'all' parts are critical) when it's lost or fails?

No parts houses existed then as they do today - and even today, getting some spares are difficult to locate - so repairs were local, and chances were taken.

What was the earliest center-fire in use in the West? 

Likely one of the myriad of British designs, as the pinfire seemed to fascinate continental designers well after the center-fire showed up.

While folks did carry the odd piece - they carried them as a tool and not as a piece of sporting equipment - 100 rounds in a lifetime for folks like that is pretty reasonable to think, as no one was competing with them as shooters do today.

There's a three-volume set on early revolvers by Tayler - I'll look there.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Abilene]

...While folks did carry the odd piece - they carried them as a tool and not as a piece of sporting equipment...

And there were probably PLENTY of percussion odd pieces out there since they were much easier to feed! 

[Coffinmaker]

   And, just to sail along with Abilene, there were a huge number of folks who just refused to embrace "self contained ammunition" and retained their percussion guns right thru the turn of the 20th century.  Certain in the belief that "Fad" self contained ammunition would never actually replace "loose ammunition" for the common man (or woman).

[RoyceP]

  Sorry Royce

The Colt 1871-72 Open Top was NOT chambered in 38 Colt nor 44 Colt.  Except for perhaps a one-off tool room example.  The Open Top was only chambered for 44 Henry Flat Rim Fire.

Really?

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/revolvers/colt-revolvers-antique/colt-model-3-round-barrel.cfm?gun_id=101018956#lg-1

[Abilene]

Really?

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/revolvers/colt-revolvers-antique/colt-model-3-round-barrel.cfm?gun_id=101018956#lg-1

Yes,really.

What you linked to is a conversion revolver. Plenty of those in centerfire.  The '71-'72 Opentop has the looks of a conversion but was built as Colt's first designed cartridge gun.  Shot the same ammo as the Henry and 1866 rifles.

[Coffinmaker]

   PLUS ONE fer ABILENE 

Sorry Royce.  No Cigar.  Nope, it ain't even close.  As Abilene pointed out, it be a conversion and it appears to have been done by a gunsmith shop rather than a Colt factory conversion. 

I went back and re-read the sellers description.  The frame and cylinder were re-machined from Percussion parts and the Conversion Recoil plate added.  The barrel does appear to have been specifically made for cartridge conversion, which Colt was doing extensively to exhaust their stockpile of Percussion parts at the expiration of the "White" patent.  SO:  I'll buy it may well have been "converted" by Colt from existing parts stocks with the addition of a dedicated barrel sans loading apparatus.  Nice pocket pistol though.