Author Topic: 40/60 whats wrong????  (Read 19248 times)

Offline Slamfire

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Re: 40/60 whats wrong????
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2014, 07:56:07 PM »
 I think the Mike Venturino test w/ a 40/60 was with chappiew/ 26" barrel ,and at the top of  the page it refured to a1in 40 twist ,,,I think that's what I remember,and that would mean slow,,,






  Hootmix.

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: 40/60 whats wrong????
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2014, 10:04:04 AM »
I just ran a hypothetical bullet of .410 diameter and 1.00 inch long through the calculator I posted above. The result for my imaginary 1 inch long bullet resulted in a rot of 1 turn in 21".

Slamfire; I don't have Mikes levergun book and couldn't find that figure. I don't think the Chapparal website can be found anymore?

Measuring ROT is easy. A cleaning rod with a tight patch is run down the bore after having marked the rod so the amount of turns can be detected. Measure the distance on the rod for a full turn.
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”

Offline Slamfire

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Re: 40/60 whats wrong????
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2014, 03:48:59 PM »
 Sir Charles, I read so much,,,, that i'v read toooo much,so I went back and found this:

  Test rifle-win. 1855, single shot #3 barrel  1in 40 twist 40/60,,,i got this confused w/ another articale.

                  This is the article by mike v.
     A Chappie, 1876 w/26" barrel,,bullet sized to.406 smokless powder "NOT FOR USE IN ORIGL. WIN. MODERN REPOS. ONLY.
  The article did not give ROT,,, my mistake.

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Re: 40/60 whats wrong????
« Reply #23 on: Today at 10:00:35 AM »

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: 40/60 whats wrong????
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2014, 04:11:44 PM »
Be careful when reading up on .40-60! There are quite a few, and they all differ in some respect to the others.  The one we are looking for is the .40-60 WCF made for the Win m76.
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”

Offline Slamfire

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Re: 40/60 whats wrong????
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2014, 04:28:28 PM »
 Yes Sir,,I guess the only thing to do now ,,,( dang fever's got me tremble'n ) get one .I'll checkw/ the classifieds, maybe some ones got 3or 4 to many(LOL).







  Thank you.
 Hootmix.

Offline Blair

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Re: 40/60 whats wrong????
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2014, 04:35:53 PM »
Slamfire,

In 1855 the standard ROT was 1-72  for a 40" long barrel.
This remains the same until about 1868.
The 40-60 Winchester cartridge evolves sometime around or just after 1879.
The ROT will depend on the length of the barrel of that firearm.
My best,
 Blair
A Time for Prayer.
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God and the soldier we adore.
But in times of peace and all things right,
God is forgotten and the soldier slighted"
by Rudyard Kipling.
Blair Taylor
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Offline Slamfire

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Re: 40/60 whats wrong????
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2014, 05:58:12 PM »
 Thanks  for the info : Blair. I just love when a plan comes together,,don't ya'll. Just looked at cdnn "26in." 1876 40/60 600.00 + the usual shiping ,called my FFL dealer to make sure ,EVERYTHING GOOD THERE,,,But ,,they have no powder,,and these folks shoot big time all over. Bullets yes primers so-so, some BP's ,,no smokless. Danggum.






  Hootmix.

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: 40/60 whats wrong????
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2014, 06:49:20 PM »
Slamfire;  The powder shortage won't last forever, and already sporadic deliveries are happening. I even hear comments about .22 ammo coming back, but here & there. Meanwhile, buy a tin of 3Fg or Olde Eynsford and shoot it like it was designed to be shot. Buy some cast bullets for the .41 Rem Mag, and go to it.
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”

Offline Slamfire

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Re: 40/60 whats wrong????
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2014, 07:55:25 PM »
 Sir C. You saying .41 mag which are .410 dia.,,so i'll need to resize these down to .406-408 depending on rifle bore???
 







  Hootmix.







Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: 40/60 whats wrong????
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2014, 09:19:51 PM »
Sir C. You saying .41 mag which are .410 dia.,,so i'll need to resize these down to .406-408 depending on rifle bore???
 Hootmix.

My guess is that you might not need to size them down at all. Oversized bullets, as long as they will chamber seem to work OK in my experience. Slug your barrel, an easy task, and if its' .408 or so don't worry about it. If you find suitable smokeless powder the lube they have on delivery will do fine. If you decide on blackpowder then melting the smokeless lube out in a tray in a fairly cool oven will work. Just relube with a BP compatible lube. I don't even bother to "pan-lube', just rub it into the grooves by hand.

If resizing seems advisable, look for the LEE sizing kits. LEE casting equipment is usually available and not expensive either.
 







 






NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”

Offline mtmarfield

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Re: 40/60 whats wrong????
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2014, 09:03:04 PM »
   Greetings!

   It would probably be better to compare the .40-60WCF to the .38WCF, rather than the .44WCF, since the first two are, for all intents and purposes, .40 caliber. Yep, the bullets for both the .40-60WCF and the .44WCF weigh the same, but the .40 caliber has better sectional density for the given weight, and will probably penetrate a game animal a lot deeper. It's also a lot easier to beat factory ballistics by testing different Black Powders, powder compression levels, primers, etc.
   I suppose that making .45-60WCF brass from .45-70Govt. would be a lot easier, but what's the fun in that? Years ago, I made up a 'dummy' .40-60WCF using a trimmed and annealed .45-70Govt. case for the brass, and an OLD Ideal Shell Resizing Tool. Not having a late Lyman #403168 mould at the time, I used a slug from my Lyman #41028 / 212gr. to cork the case. Wouldn't you know it: crimped in the crimp groove, I got 2.10" OAL. HELL! Now I'm going to have to scare up an Italian '76 in .40-60WCF... See what you did? First, I need to get rehired...
   
                M.T.Marfield

Offline Slamfire

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Re: 40/60 whats wrong????
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2014, 06:49:04 PM »
 Howdy ,M T,, I like your idea about the .40 having more density ,and deeper penetration . I actually picked the 40/60 because of the real lack of intrest in the little cartrage,but "now" it seems there are quite afew 40/60"er"s (for lack of a better word). Now maybe the 40/60 load section will pick-up some info.Now don't get me wrong,,I love my 44/40 ( 92 rossi) ,but the first time ,     I saw 40/60 !! I got that in'er hunger ( you know ,the one we can't explain) to get one . There is a gun show this weekend at paris, TX. about 25 mi. so. of me ,goi'n to swing over sat. morning check it out . Have a 1875 outlaw 44/40( of course) about a 91 model ,, maybe to sale or swap. Be holler'n back later. Been a pleasure meet'n ya.




 Hootmix.

Offline mtmarfield

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Re: 40/60 whats wrong????
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2014, 12:47:18 AM »
   Greetings, SlamFire!

   Yep! We're all here to, "share the pain"!! I wish that I could afford one of each!
First, I need to get "un-laid-off"...

                Be Well!

                            M.T.Marfield

Offline Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks

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Re: 40/60 whats wrong????
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2014, 08:06:59 PM »
Slamfire-

I have no experience with the 40-60... Brian Pearce addressed the 40-60, 45-60 and the 45-75 Replicas in an article that appears in the 49th Edition of Lyman Reloading Handbook. Of these three rifles that Brian tested (all 3 were Chaparral's) he states that the 40-60 had a much flatter trajectory than the 45-60 and the 45-75. On page 103 he shows a loading table guide for the 40-60, the powders that he used were IMR-4198, AA5744, AA2015, Trip 7, Varget and Trail Boss. Of these loads he states he had the best accuracy with 28 grains of IMR-4198 under a 292 grain RNFP cast bullet and he also claimed good results with AA 5744. The rifles were furnished by Charter 2000 distributor at that time. The brass cases used for his test was Jamison brass.  Ken Waters also addresses the 40-60 in his book on "Pet Loads".  Waters used 45-70 brass and then used a form and trim die for sizing the brass and or fire form 45-70 brass leaving cases full length @ 2.10".  Waters also has a closing chapter on the 40-60 and here he addresses using jacketed ammo.  As stated I have never shot the 40-60 but everything I have read about it sounds good.  Waters claims it is an EXCELLENT deer hunting rifle.
"If I killed that kid, it was the best shot I ever made, and the dirtiest trick I ever did."

Offline dusty texian

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Re: 40/60 whats wrong????
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2022, 04:59:01 PM »
An oldie but a goodie  , we have come a long way .,,,DT

Offline King Medallion

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Re: 40/60 whats wrong????
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2022, 05:56:10 PM »
Kinda makes me want one. Got a bunch of new Jamison 40/60 brass, might as well get the rifle too. I can not shoot it just as much as the other 2 I have.
King Medallion

Offline Black River Smith

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Re: 40/60 whats wrong????
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2022, 11:31:43 AM »
King, you might as well make it 2 more and be like Dusty with all 4 different calibers.

I still like the ideal of the 40/60 WCF.  When I bought the Chaparral 45/60 in 2014 it was a toss-up between the 2 calibers, with the 45 being easier to find a bullet mold and CDNN only having 26" barreled 40/60's left.  Had to have the 28" barrel on an 1876.  Well now, a few weeks ago I won an original Win 40/60 mold off of ebay in near perfect shape.  It molds a 212gr; 0.405 diameter bullet with the original 1 to 16 alloy.

It appears that this will be my start for looking for an 1876 in 40/60.  More fun and more reloading tools down the road.
Black River Smith

Offline Slamfire

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Re: 40/60 whats wrong????
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2022, 02:11:53 PM »
 DT, i think we goin'n have some company, ;D  ;D.

 have'n coffee & smiling,  Hootmix.

Offline King Medallion

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Re: 40/60 whats wrong????
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2022, 02:41:40 PM »
Having one of each caliber is the goal, and beings I already have 2 45/70s, the 40/60 will be next.
King Medallion

Offline dusty texian

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Re: 40/60 whats wrong????
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2022, 07:27:59 AM »
King, you might as well make it 2 more and be like Dusty with all 4 different calibers.

I still like the ideal of the 40/60 WCF.  When I bought the Chaparral 45/60 in 2014 it was a toss-up between the 2 calibers, with the 45 being easier to find a bullet mold and CDNN only having 26" barreled 40/60's left.  Had to have the 28" barrel on an 1876.  Well now, a few weeks ago I won an original Win 40/60 mold off of ebay in near perfect shape.  It molds a 212gr; 0.405 diameter bullet with the original 1 to 16 alloy.

It appears that this will be my start for looking for an 1876 in 40/60.  More fun and more reloading tools down the road.
       Don't blame it on me Lol .,,,,DT

 

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