Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => BROW => Topic started by: Dave T on October 23, 2021, 06:03:11 PM
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A while ago I acquired a completely restored (a magnificent job by someone) Remington Rolling Block No 1 Sporting Rifle and I have spent the last half hour or so trying to find a list of serial numbers and corresponding years of manufacture for it. Thanks to my very limited computer searching skills all I've come up with is individual guns, often listing a serial number but nothing about the date of manufacture, or the 2 million or so RB military rifles Remington made, or serial numbers and dates for modern guns.
I've never figured out how to post pictures here but this rifle came with a 30" heavy octagon barrel, barrel sights, that distinctive curved and rounded Remington butt plate, and stamped on the underside of the barrel "45-70". Serial number is #10854. Any help I can get identifying the year of manufacture, or even a range of years it comes from would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Dave
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I have no data to help but being “fully restored” can also mean it didn’t start out as a sporting rifle. A gunsmith buddy of mine built first class Remington rifles for years many from military actions. They were reshaped and when finished with top grade wood and barrel. Many were made to order and no attempt was made to pass them as factory made. Others have done the same. Not being a student of Remington rollers I can’t say how to tell but if it’s a fine rifle then it’s a fine rifle.
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Can't be done. Remington records of that era were lost/destroyed/never kept to begin with. Military RBs can be roughly dated by contract, but if this started out as a military action the info was lost in the conversion.
You might enquire at www.remingtonsociety.org
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I went to the RSA site yesterday. I'm not yet prepared to spend $50 (annual first time membership) for this one rifle and question.
As for it being faked on a military action, all the markings including the serial number, caliber stamp, and "E. Remington & Sons Illion, NY" are in the correct place. It would have to be an intentional forgery and I hope Kent's friend wasn't in that kind of business.
Guess I'll never know,
Dave
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The "45-70" strikes me as a bit odd. Every one I have seen was simply stamped "45". Only a couple of those.
45-70 sporting rifles from that era are extremely rare though. Most were .44-77s or 50-70s. Be special if you could prove it.
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The one Remington RB book I have, which doesn't list serial numbers, shows caliber markings of "45", 45.70", and "45-70" at various times which aren't specified. Go figure.
Dave
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"Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms", 9th. Edition, page 181:
"Overall period of production ca. 1868 - 1888. Possibly as many as 12.000 manufactured."
Given that the .45-70 calibre debuted around 1873, and Your rifle's serial number is 10.854, my guesstimate would be "mid-to-late 1880s"...
Flayderman's also suggests a series of books called "Single Shot Rifles" by James Grant for more info.
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Researching Remington you come away amazed at just how badly that company was run.
Not much has changed.
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"Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms", 9th. Edition, page 181:
"Overall period of production ca. 1868 - 1888. Possibly as many as 12.000 manufactured."
Given that the .45-70 calibre debuted around 1873, and Your rifle's serial number is 10.854, my guesstimate would be "mid-to-late 1880s"...
Flayderman's also suggests a series of books called "Single Shot Rifles" by James Grant for more info.
Cap'n I think you're probably right. It's way to late to have ever hunted buffalo...but then my Shiloh Sharps Big 50 never hunted buffalo either. (smile)
Dave
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Does this rifle have the contoured and graceful triggerguard? This is a feature of original #1 sporting rifles, but often overlooked on military conversions that have the heavy, full width triggerguard. Are the patent dates on the side of the receiver? Early sporting rifles were marked on the tang, but when they started drilling and tapping for tang sights, marks were moved to the side. My rifle is earlier than yours, in the 6XXX range and is factory drilled and tapped for a tang sight.
BTW, posting photos is easy. After hitting reply, look for the "Attachments and other options" link. Click on it and choose your image. Be mindful of the size limitation shown. Easy Peasy.
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"Easy Peasy"! You greatly over estimate my computer skills. I tried you suggestion and never got a picture on the reply. Anyway, yes the trigger guard is beautifully contoured. I'll have to go out to the shop and look in the safe to see if the patent dates are on the side of the receiver.
Leaving for an appointment in a few minutes. I'll get back with further info and try the picture thing again.
Dave
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If it has the contoured trigger guard, it likely is the real thing. While it is possible that someone swapped it in, they are not easy to find and re-contouring a military trigger guard would not be easy. For the photos, just make sure it is an acceptable format and does not exceed 400KB.
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ndnchf,
The receiver has the patent dates as your's does. These are a little worse for wear as they were buffed pretty heavily prior to the receiver and other appropriate parts being very well case colored.
I finally got some ammo loaded. Montana Bullet Works 1-16 RNFP weighing 413g over 69.2g of Olde Eynsford FFg. Now I just have to get my busted up self out to a range and see if they want to shoot. (smiley face goes here)
Dave
PS: Once you've selected a picture and the "attachment" box has the JPG, how on earth do you deliver it to the reply part of the forum?? Inquiring Luddite minds want to know!
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It sounds like you have a fine rifle. After you select an image, it will take you back to the Reply window and the image file name will show next to "choose file". That is all you need to do. Just hit Post and your reply will be posted with the image.
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RB built by myself and a friend in 1997. Will expound on it if the pictures actually appear . . .
OK, pictures showed up, yea! Original action, 34" Badger #1 Hvy barrel chambered in 45-70, Treebone wood, Shiloh barrel sights. Since these pics were taken, I have contoured the trigger guard similar to the sporter pics above and replaced the Pedersoli tang sight with a Parts Unknown Long Range Soule sight and hooded front sight.
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That serial range suggests manufacture in the 1880's. Like said above 45/70 would be pretty rare so you should post pics of the barrel stampings, the sights, and stamps underneath the forend. That said there are many redone sporters out there with correct markings and even the 5 groove Remington barrel. Pics!
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Sam:
It is good to see you on the net again.
T-Joe
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Sam:
It is good to see you on the net again.
T-Joe
Yeah, I think between Brandon and Covid we've been playing tag.
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Well, that thing called life came along and I never did get to shoot that RB until today.
Started at 50 yards to see where the sights were looking. First shot was not far from center so I tried two more. They never even hit the cardboard the target was stapled to. Fired another 7 rounds at paper, a steel plate and various rocks. I hit a rock by accident. No help was had from the rifle's barrel.
This either becomes the most beautiful wall hanger I've ever owned, which I object to for a number of reasons, or I have to find someone to re-bore, reline, and re-chamber this gun. The springs and trigger could use some work too but first I have to have a barrel that shoots.
Can any of you recommend someone who does this work well. I had a guy who did a number of barrels for me back in the 1980s but if he's still around he's surely retired by now.
Any suggestions of a good rifle smith would be appreciated.
Dave
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I haven't used him, but I've heard good things about John Taylor.
https://johntaylormachine.com/ (https://johntaylormachine.com/)
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Don't give up on that barrel after only 10 shots. What is your load? Did you slug the bore and match bullet diameter to groove size, or .001" - .002" over? As long as it is a quality barrel and the bore is in good condition, there is no reason that a good load can't be worked up for it.
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ndnchf,
The problem is, it is a "quality" original Remington barrel that's 135-140 years old inside. Looks good from the breech end but looking down the muzzle I can barely make out the rifling for 2-3 inches. It was a gamble that it would shoot and today proved it doesn't. Not hitting an 18X30 piece of cardboard with but one shot was telling. Not coming close to anything with the remaining 7 shots was the nail(s) in the coffin. They weren't all misses in the same direction either. One shot was high, the next was low. Then one went high and right, etc. and not by inches but by feet.
Dave
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When you said it was completely restored in your first post, I assumed this meant the bore was pristine too. If it is worn out, consider having it relined. As mentioned earlier, John Taylor is a gunsmith well versed in this kind of work. He has done quite a few jobs for me over the years.
You never did post photos of it, so we can only imagine what you have. Enquiring minds would still like to see it 😀
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Thanks ndnchf, and CCG. I'll check him out.
Dave