why I think Jeff Cooper was a negative influence in the shooting world

[petrinal]

someone said that if I dare I should share my views about the Colonel of be quiet for ever, so...here you are. You probably dont mind what many of us think about his influence, outside the USA, but another view about things might be interesting to read.


 let me say that I am just explaining what I think is "my truth", and I dont mean to insult anyone in this post.

well, there is  a big cultural difference on both sides of the Atlantic regarding most things, from food, to cars, and guns are included in that.


let me explain why I think that the Colonel was so so so wrong, to the point of not  being  exactly "highly regarded" in  the European gun press:

I wont mention many of his political comments, but focuse mainly in guns and shooting:

He proposed, mainly,  griping the gun with two hands,  arms extended, in Weaver position, and that technique has dominated hand gun training for decades since the  end of the 1980´s.....specially and mainly, in the USA,  and that was his main mistake.

time and experience, at least here and in other countries like Argentina, Israel or Germany, or Nothern Ireland, have proofed all this techniques  as inadequate .

real life  attacks happen at very short distances, and very very quickly, having the guy almost on you or just at  a distance of centimeters, in the european/argentinian/israeli case...as people walk more here and use the car less, so they are not allways  assaulting you in a road ,or the  city outskirts, but in the middle of a narrow street, and the attacker normally thinks that you are unarmed.

Weaver just wont let you react quickly, and you wont have time to adopt it, at least in this side of the point, in most cases...period. Experience here has shown that, in fact, Weaver blocks you, and much has been writing about it, mainly in non english speaking countries, where Jeff Cooper was just not regarded "as a guru" or "a genius", but just like an american phenomenon, of nill influence outside, fortunately.

the saddest thing about Cooper influence is that many lessons from the past have been forgotten because of his wrong and unrealistic IPSC  ideas. Many good one hand grip techniques are now forgotten,  many of them developed by people who saw real figths in the street, and not only in the USA, like Fairnbairn and SKYPES, great defenders of "Point Shooting", and one hand shooting when there is no other alternative.

the sad thing is that because of that negative influence, most activities and new modalities in shooting sports have been affected in a very negative way, as they all became "dynamic", and as a result...we have a legion of gunwriters, sport shooters, and experts..who can get 530 points out of 600 in the bulls eye at 25 meters, but who can shoot the o´ring at 10 yards.....when in fact, that distance is even short for airguns...and there is no merit at all in shooting at such distance.

so many people, just because of the ·"dynamic trend",  know very littel about trigger control, sights, shooting  glasses, etc etc...25 meters just wont let you do the mistakes you can do at 10 yards, period.


I think that this guy, who is a spanish policeman in  Gribaltrar camp, a population very close to the British colony of Gibraltar, an who has experience with the british policemen there, explains it very well.

 http://tirodefensivocampodegibraltar.blogspot.com.es/2010/03/posicion-isosceles-moderna-dinamica-la.html

in short, time has shown COOPER was wrong, and new techniques are been devoloped, some of them are just a compilation of pre JEFF COOPER, PRE IPSC techniques.

I wont talk about scout rifles, etc...or about his comments about 22 lr as a great "plinking round", "its main use", as the Colonel said once in Guns and Ammo....... many Biathlon and olympic target shooters might have "a slightly" different opinion....  

sorry, Jeff Cooper was  just wrong. Period.

note:

if someone  thinks that IPSC will save his/her life, he/she should think twice...specially if  one lives in  Buenos Aires, Rio, Hong Kong, Belfast...Tel Aviv... just use those techniques and you´re dead.

all the best

[PJ Hardtack]

I'm dumbfounded .....

Do you actually believe what you wrote, or are you just trying to get a reaction?

Cooper looked at all the shooting styles and techniques and found them wanting. He started the Big Bear "Leather Slaps", open to all comers. What worked and what didn't became readily apparent.
Those that did 'point' shooting lost; those using the 'modern pistol technique' (some form of modified Weaver) won.

These techniques became the standard in survival training institutes world wide, including the armed forces and police agencies of many countries.

If you're trying to make me believe that you or anyone else could best such a trained shooter, I challenge you to set up such a competition and PROVE it!

You are also forgetting that in the end, Cooper walked away from the IPSC, asking that his name no longer be associated with it. This after the 'gamers' and gamesmanship took over. It was no longer the pure martial art form of his conception.

"Shooting as conducted by the IPSC is to gunfighting what Olympic fencing is to swordfighting."   Jeff Cooper

I am the first one to admit that using IPSC techniques in a street battle would be fatal; i.e. reloading in front of an armed assailant, not behind cover. That is what led to the formation of the IDPA, a more realistic form of competitive defensive handgun competition.

[Shotgun Franklin]

The only 'grip' I ever had with Cooper's type of combat was that it was geared toward a Military Combat situation. I've been in 6 gunfights on duty. In each one 4 shots or less were fired. I've never reloaded a handgun during a shooting. While I've used the 'Weaver' stance, I've also shot holding the gun with one hand and did OK. I went to a school and there was a very young female Officer there. She had an extended mag on her Glock and 2 double mags pouches on her belt. That was at least 75 rounds of ammo. I hope she never fell in deep water. While Cooper does deserve credit for improved training and for causing the use of better equipment, I'm also sure that there was/is more to be learned.

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[PJ Hardtack]

Petrinal

You confess to not being a competitor and you're not a soldier or police officer, but you're an 'expert' on what works in competition and in combat. Unbelievable. And you expect to taken seriously? Stop baiting and treating us like fools.

Have you any idea how ridiculous you sound? It would be as if I was criticizing bulls-eye or ISU competition as a non-competitor in those disciplines.

Since you are such an authority, I look forward to your books and the school you found to teach your methodology.

Take my challenge and PROVE it in competition - put up or shut up!

Post this idiocy on ANY 1911 forum - PLEASE!  I really want to know what kind of response you get.

[Lumpy Grits]

I have take'n 5 classes from Gunsite(3 defensive handgun and 2 carbine classes)over the many years. I will be attending the Advanced Carbine(556)class in April.
 You Sir, have no clue of what is taught at Gunsite.
CQB(close quarter battle)is covered in depth!
Stick to what you say you know(target shooting). NOT what you 'THINK' you might know(gunfighting).
I have been in 2 gunfights. I'm still above ground.

LG

[RickB]

I'm a survivor of 6 times where I had to use a gun to protect myself. I've used quite a bit of what Cooper taught and it is pretty close to what the Israeli Mossad teach in how to use a gun in a combat situation.

How many fights has our resident "expert" been in?

As Bruce Lee once said, boards and bricks don't hit back. So to say you are ready for combat because you shoot at paper targets doesn't mean you are ready for real combat.

If you want to see just how combat ready you really are, get some airsoft guns, and have someone else (maybe more than one) engage you in various situations where you must draw and use your gun to defend yourself. Let's see how you instinctivly react. That will show you where your strengths and flaws are. That way you won't risk being killed.

The only thing I ever disagreed with Cooper was that he was so hung up on the 1911. At the time I didn't care for the cocked and locked single action of the gun. But now I own two of them. One a standard length slide and the other a commander model for CCW use. Both in .45 ACP. They are both made by Springfield and both are rattle free and very tight tolerances.

I've had my skills and training tested in real world situations. I don't need an armchair quarterback trying to tell me what does and doesn't work. It's all their opinion, assumption, and arrogance that gives them the idea they know more than others who have been there. It's like a kid telling a vet what combat is really like. Just foolish.

[PJ Hardtack]

Everyone else commenting is able to do so without regurgitating a previous post verbatim. Why can't you? I've asked you before - no answer.

I've asked to 'put up or shut up' with regard to your 2nd hand theories, and post them on a 1911 forum. You have declined. You don't compete, so your comments carry no weight. You were never a combat veteran, police officer or soldier, but deign to lecture those who were. Your feeble attempts at covering your (_*_) with conditional statements shows you lack first hand experience on the range and in the street.
In western parlance, you have been 'called out', and have chosen not to rise to the challenge. That is cowardice, on either side of the Atlantic.

Your arrogance is exceeded only by your ego. Your persistence in making a fool of your self on a public forum matches that of our other resident 'Troll', and I do hereby accord you official status as such. It is my belief that you will wear this sobriquet with pride, as does the other resident 'Troll'.

Your personal credibility is lacking and your audacity in waving a red cape in front of a bull does not make you a Matador, merely marking you as an opinionated, deliberately antagonistic sh!t disturber, sitting safely behind his keyboard.

You, Sir, and I, are finished. There is no further communication forthcoming between us. Life is simply too short ......

DO NOT FEED THE TROLL! Let us watch him wither and die.

[Lumpy Grits]

Petrinal sez...NOT FROM ME, BUT FROM THE EXPERTS here! Policemen, counterterrorism specialist, security guards...expert civilians...many of them widely known people among the gun press"

That is TOTAL hogwash!
Have you even looked at the background of the Gunsite teachers? Me thinks 'not'.
You would be surprised just who attends Gunsite from rest of the REAL world.
You have no clue. Gunsite travels around the world to teach also.
How long has Gunsite be around? How long has that other outfit been around? HMMMMmmmmmmmm.....
Carry on,
LG

[RickB]

PJ, and Lumpy, just consider this, if I wanted to hear about fighting tactics I sure wouldn't seek out advice from a country that has surrendered more than they have fought. Be it Italy, Spain, or France. Most European countries have a terrible record of actual war time accomplishments. So I consider their "opinions" of America as nothing but them  trying to be relevant when in fact they have been nothing of consequence. Who do they run to when they are being attacked? The very country they insult and put down is the very one they are envious of. I know they won't ever admit it, but that is why they are always trying to make it sound like they are better than us in so many ways, when in fact they are far behind in most aspects. The freedom they surrendered to their governments to hope for a little safety is too great a toll to pay in my opinion.

So as you say PJ, it is this posters opinion and arrogance, along with his inability to admit his jealousy at the United States and what is the greatest country in the world. So anything posted after this is just more of the same.

It's like having a boy scout tell a Marine what it takes to be a great warrior. It's just silly rantings of a child more than anything to take seriously. Don't take their advice seriously and above all, DON'T FEED THE TROLLS. 

[cavsgt]

  If Cooper's tactics do not work in your ghettos feel free to not use them.  Just spare me your continued bad attitude about everything American.

  No need to respond as after the last thread you started I will no longer read your drivel.

[Lumpy Grits]

 Petrinal sez "in general, we have no Ghettos here, so your wrong"
Then, there is the real world Spain...
 
LG

[Forty Rod]

Jeff Cooper for guns in combat, proven time and again all over the world.

William Fairbairn for close combat with hands, clubs, knives, rocks, pointy sticks and other weapons of opportunity other than guns.

Never been in a gunfight (except in 'Nam...and there was lots of shooting going on there and not a hell of a lot of science nor art involved)), but I've survived a few up close and personal social encounters using Fairbairn's "Defendu" street fighting techniques.

And my Dad told me don't take "golf advice from anyone who can't beat you consistently."  Same goes for fighting.  I'll stick with what has been proven.

[RickB]

Do you think that fighting in WW2, like Cooper, or in IRAQ,  makes you a good policeman in Berlin? as a matter of fact, this guys are normally rejected for serving in the Police here, they military mind, and their experience, makes them unsuitable for civil service as policemen.

in fact, civilian target shooters are far more prepared to work as "auxiliary policemen", something that already exist in the USA,and it is being implemented in some european countries.

Most insane thing I ever read from your keyboard. So you really believe that a person who has been trained in the military is less able to be a good police officer than someone who has just shot targets on a range somewhere?

Ex-military have faced stressful situations where they can be killed and deal with it by keeping their cool and working as a team. They have faced people who they help and those they must fight. They are trained to know when to act with kindness and when to fight. They have been shot at and know how to shoot back under stresses that would make you run like a child to his mom. They are trained by the military to be peace keepers and protectors of their fellow civilians. They are better trained than any bunch of clowns who shoot at targets and are trained to be uniform wearing targets.

If this is how some European countries choose their police then it's no wonder the Muslims have infiltrated their countries and are taking over. To make your police and military weak by such ideas is suicide. Picking civilians to be your police is OK if you expect them to never face a criminal. And there is NO WAY you can tell me honestly that Spain, France, Italy or any other European country is so crime free and submissive to the authorities that you can hire a bunch of clowns to be cops and deal with things like riots and terrorist attacks better than a military person (who has been trained and lived in that environment).

Again, I don't think these comments are being made by a very well versed person in police, military or firearms.

Suggestion is to take their "opinions" with a very very very large grain of salt. The above comments give me a lot of reason to say these ideas, comments and opinions are not to be given much credibility. Do so at your own risk. I'm laughing at how ridiculous this is.

[PJ Hardtack]

Petrinal

You aren't getting the message .... permit me to clarify ....

We have lost interest in your anti-American, anti-Jeff Cooper "modern pistol technique", your second hand theories about what works on the street and what doesn't, etc., etc., etc.
You are a self-appointed 'expert' with no personal, real life experience or background to back you up - unlike many on the list who have 'been there - done that', and have the training and experience you lack; people who have the ability to adapt to the times and conditions they face.

You are being isolated, ignored, shut out. Purporting to be an intellectual, expounding on the theories of others and hiding behind "I don't like IPSC" or "I don't like competition and only compete with myself" is intellectual cowardice. You are a fountain of irrelevant facts and information, obfuscating and offering up high sounding bafflegab to compensate for your inadequacy.

You enjoy baiting others and getting a reaction. That is manipulation and destroys your credibility. If you are willing to settle for that, it indicates low self-esteem and is to be pitied. Please, spare us further 'expert' opinions on any topic and further embarrassment to yourself.

If it helps, I will concede European superiority in automobiles, guns, consumer goods of all kinds as well as moral and cultural superiority. But, we enjoy central heating, flush toilets, great health care and unlike some European nations, haven't engaged in genocide during our short history.
I enjoy living in a country with a healthy economy, not far removed from it's pioneer history where a man's worth was based on what he could do, not what he says he can do.

[RickB]

Looks like you've pi**ed off the America hater. He still doesn't understand that we don't give a crap what he or his country of buffoons think. As he and they have demonstrated to the world they are ill equipped to deal with crime and violence.  So I'm going to be one to just say DON'T FEED THE TROLL.

[Will Ketchum]

Well again this thread has deteriorated to the point that it is no longer providing any useful information.  I ill ask the moderator to lock it.

Will Ketchum

[RickB]

You also have less population and a hell of a lot less freedom. 

[RickB]

By the way, the state and city I live in has very low crime as most do here. What you are confusing is the crime rate of the largest cities here. They don't represent the crime rate of the majority of American cities. If compared to large cities in Europe the crime rates are about the same.

[Major 2]

Well again this thread has deteriorated to the point that it is no longer providing any useful information.  I ill ask the moderator to lock it.

Will Ketchum

I had as well 

[Gen Lew Wallace]

Greetings,

I just read this with some amusement.  I respect your right to make such statements; however I disagree with them.  I don't know what you were trying to accomplish other than bashing someone we in the shooting sports hold in high regard.  I will simply say that if you don't like his tactics, or for that matter, his country, or his beliefs then don't continue to read them.  You will NEVER convert anyone here who follows his readings.  All you will accomplish is slandering a good American and getting the rest of us riled up.

I could go on and on what I think about some of the shit holes I was sent to in my twenty years serving my country.  I could go on and on what I think about some of the liberal "enlightened" old world socialist nations across the oceans, but I don't.