Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Cas City Historical Society => Topic started by: Shotgun Franklin on February 07, 2014, 01:10:27 PM
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Some folks have a problem with CAS Shooters using more than one gun. The argument being that a Cowboy couldn't afford more than one gun. Well, not everyone was a Cowboy and some Cowboys did better than others.
I invite you to post documentation showing that some folks did carry more than one gun. Here's an example I ran across the other night:
"According to the custom of the time in that country, every man was armed with a good rifle, and a pair of Colt's revolvers. Although cap and ball, these were powerful arms...." - From 'Indian Fight At Battle Flat' by Jack McPhee, Frontier Times May1967
This fight took place in 1864 in Arizona.
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I think carrying more than one cap-n-ball was documented and real common during that unpleasantness here in the Missouri-Kansas area.
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Lets discuss what the term "GUN" means to some folks.
The time period, and what their occupation maybe are also very important?
Just a thought on my part,
Blair
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The gripe seems to be that no 'cowboy' ever carried more than a revolver.
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The truth of the matter is that most 'cowboys' didn't carry when plying their trade - that of herding cattle.
Most of the revolvers were kept in their gear, on the wagon.
Range bosses didn't like that their hands were often 'excitable' young men and prone to fighting - and when given weapons - were more than ready to use them - so, they kept them away from the hands unless actually needed because of a threat.
As an aside, the 'John Ford Reference Library' is a poor way to research the times - as are the studio photos that are full of photographer's props - and the atmosphere of C&WAS does little to foster actual research into the era, when movie lore and Dime Novel excitement beckons - I mean, who needs 'real life', when 'reel life' will do?
Besides, if C&WAS replicated the times - everyone'd be dipped in a barrel of alkali dust and made to squint into the sun for hours and hours - wiping dust and swatting flies.
Another thing - the cowboy wasn't paid much - and once he'd bought a badly-needed new shirt and trousers after the drive - and maybe a new pair of boots - there just wasn't much left with which to buy extra firepower, when what he already owned was still working.
His priorities were in clothing himself and making sure his primary piece of gear - his saddle - was in good order - 'not' in wandering the town - which likely had a 'No Guns' rule - all dolled up like Billy Badass.
These were small men - boys, really - and when you're topping out at 'maybe' 5'5" - two revolvers are a lot of weight to carry.
Both the 'Historical Society' forum and the 'NCOWS' forums are filled with good, solid references in their 'back pages' - so take some time, and look 'em over.
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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The grip seems to be that no 'cowboy' ever carried more than a revolver.
Most of the statement as I read them, are stating that probably no one carried a shotgun. a rifle and 2 revolvers. I would agree with that. On the other end of the spectrum is the working cowboy who probably had a rifle and possibly a revolver In the middle there were probably some that carried 2 revolvers and of course lawmen might well have carried 2 revolver and a shotgun or rifle.
Now from where I stand - SASS and NCOWS are shooting sports that reflect the weapons of the period with differing degrees of authenticity. A person needs to choose their poison.
Not everyone can afford 4 guns and ammo to shoot SASS
Not everyone can afford a horse and 2 guns for Mounted Shooting
Not everyone can afford a revolver and a shotgun or rifle along with ammo for NCOWS
Not everyone can afford a revolver and leather for cowboy fast draw
But:
Everyone has the capacity to find fault with anything. :-X
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Point of order :)...
" ...Not everyone can afford a revolver and a shotgun or rifle along with ammo for NCOWS"
nor do they Need to ....NCOWS has a several 2 gun only ( 1 Rifle & 1 Pistol ) categories ;)
*Some Posse' offer Sod buster ( 1 Shotgun 1 pistol ) as Local Posse' class.
The theory here was, someone wanting to get involved, but for financial limits was outside looking in...
Might have his Dad's (Granddad's) Double SXS & perhaps could purchase a Remington NMA or Colt Replica ....
I can't think of a less expensive, entry level start-up.... that some combo such as this.
Just my 2 cents :)
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It's odd that I ask a basically historic question but get the same people bitching about the same stuff. Yes, SASS Shooters use more than one gun, if you don't like that then don't shoot SASS. You likely need to start your own shooting game where no body carries a gun but instead moans about the problems with other shooting games.
I might be one of the few people here that understand that not everyone was a Cowboy and that some people DID carry more than one gun.
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Point of order :)...
" ...Not everyone can afford a revolver and a shotgun or rifle along with ammo for NCOWS"
nor do they Need to ....NCOWS has a several 2 gun only ( 1 Rifle & 1 Pistol ) categories ;)
*Some Posse' offer Sod buster ( 1 Shotgun 1 pistol ) as Local Posse' class.
The theory here was, someone wanting to get involved, but for financial limits was outside looking in...
Might have his Dad's (Granddad's) Double SXS & perhaps could purchase a Remington NMA or Colt Replica ....
I can't think of a less expensive, entry level start-up.... that some combo such as this.
Just my 2 cents :)
;D I agree and at least meant to say it that way when I wrote "shotgun or rifle".
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Howdy,
Thomas Rynning in recounting his early life as a cowboy in his excellent book "Gun Notches" states.
" A cowboy always slept with his six-shooter against his war bag at his left shoulder, where his right hand could drop on it without any wasted motion. His Winchester always was at his right side with the muzzle towards his feet."
Also on page 21. regarding his six-shooter.
"You needed it to fight with, to protect you and your horse if a bad longhorn got you cornered, to shoot across the muzzles of the leaders of a stampede in turning them." He also mentions Indian attacks.
This seems to suggest that cowboys had two guns if they could afford them and that they carried them at all times.
Regards
Colt
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Howdy Shotgun!
I think Horace Bell in his "Reminiscences of a Ranger; Early Times in Southern California" mentions the carrying of two percussion revolvers in California in the 1850s.
I find it interesting that you found a source documenting activity in Arizona in 1864 and the carrying of two percussion revolvers and a rifle then. I was watching this previously unknown to me film recently called "Arizona" from 1940 with Jean Arthur and a very young William Holden. It was suppose to take place in Tucson, AZ in the early to mid 1860s. It was notable as the first use of the location which would become known as "Old Tucson" (see True West's article on it this month; the film site was actually built for this film in '39). A goodly number of the leads carried two percussion revolvers (including some really unusual ones!), and a rifle. (An original beautiful military Henry also makes a wonderful appearance, as well.) Any ways, it's rather humorous that accidentally, Hollywood actually got something right!
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Shotgun messengers were often armed with a shotgun (naturally) and a pair of revolvers. These were usually provided by the freighting company so expense was not a problem. A second revolver meant that you didn't have to try to reload on a pitching, swaying wagon seat.
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I think it is worth considering that persons who went in harm's way intentionally -- gunfighters, criminals, peace officers for example -- might have taken professional comfort in two or even more revolvers. And in some country -- the Llano Estecado comes to mind -- you'd be a darned fool not be as well armed as possible until the Comanche were vanquished.
But the vast majority of folks in the real Old West likely never went heeled -- and certainly not with multiple revolvers.
I would not be surprised if a man packing two revolvers excited comment and warranted worry among "decent" folks.
;)
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When I worked patrol in rural areas I carried two handguns, a shotgun and usually a rifle. In bigger cities they seem to believe that the Swat Team can be anywhere in 1/2 hour or so and that's good enough.
BTW, if you do work off of horseback, the horse carries the weight. I don't care how small you are, the horse can carry plenty.
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I'm 5'5" One 10 inch hog leg right,Ruger super blackhawk,1 10 inch C&B crossdraw right handed buffler gun,a nice bowie towards the back,Iver Johnson break open 38 tucked away and a Rossie sxs vest pocket derry in 22 ;D If all else fails,i just open a can of whoop @$$! :D
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Yeah, but you wear all that to go to church in town on Sunday?
;)
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And he sport's a black mask,and wonder's why folk stare ,,,,,"The Dark Ranger",,,,,,,,Dusty
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Yeah, but you wear all that to go to church in town on Sunday?
;)
You ever seen a potluck dinner at a first southern baptist church!!! :o
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GCR,
How many guns do you feel you need at a potluck dinner by any Church event?
Am I missing something here? and in regard to this original posting?
Blair
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I wouldn't be surprised if someone in, say, Arizona in 1865 would be more likely to own/carry more than one gun than someone in Nebraska or Kansas in 1895. Conditions were not all the same through the whole time period. Just my thought, but I don't have any evidence one way or another.
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In The True Story of Kill or be Killed in the Real Old West the Frank "Pistol Pete" Eaton talks about carrying two pistols. I don't really know much about this book, however, it supposedly the recollections of Frank Eaton. Info: http://www.oldwestlawmansforgottenmemoir.com/
It is set in the Indian Territory 1870s.
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Not just a cowboy, this guy seems to have been a professional lawman.
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The best stats I've read claim that 1 in 5 people out West made a living as a Cowboy at least part of the time. 'Cowboy' Action Shooting includes people pretend to be all kinds of Western Characters. From School Marms to Gambler, Soldiers to Natives, it's not just restricted to those who worked cows.
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Shotgun; I think I understand your point. After percussion revolvers were superceded the need for a second revolver became more situational. If you were a lawman or their opposite number on the other side, there was a use for more than one revolver. Personal means ($$) or status came into it, but generally a practical person weighed very carefully the need for protection against the extra weight and bulk of that revolver (or more than one) while making a living.
At page 95 of PACKING IRON there is a studio picture of Ed Schieffelin with two revolvers and a Sharps. But he was wealthy and was trying for that certain image.
Shooting many guns, and often is a blast, until you have to carry them anywhere without a vehicle, conveyance or mount of some sort. Life is full of compromises (like SASS vis a vis NCOWS). We don't have to get all wound up about it.
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Yes, Sir Charles. Now that I tote my guns a'foot I use a little Red Wagon. All I really understand is that the more guns I get to shoot the more fun I have ;D but then the more guns I have to clean :'( .
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In The True Story of Kill or be Killed in the Real Old West the Frank "Pistol Pete" Eaton talks about carrying two pistols. I don't really know much about this book, however, it supposedly the recollections of Frank Eaton. Info: http://www.oldwestlawmansforgottenmemoir.com/
It is set in the Indian Territory 1870s.
So not to bump up an old thread... But that site says he killed his first man at 16, with two 45 rounds. Which is fine.
But...
Then it says he started marshalling at 17, in 1872. I didn't think the 45 colt round was available until 73, with the release of the SAA.
And I'm pretty sure Frank Eaton was born in 1860. So like you said...
"Supposedly"
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The book "The Sutton-Taylor Feud" by Robert C. Sutton Jr. has a picture of Texas Ranger Robert B. Sutton a little after 1900, with 2 Colt SAA's and a 94 Winchester. There is another picture of Alf Day, one of the major players in the feud, with a # 3 Smith and Wesson, and what appears to be a Colt SAA. This photo could be staged in the studio but who knows for sure.
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Always gets me in the pocket when I think about new guns!
As to Hollywood, when there has been a 'shootout', how come you never see someone scurrying around, picking up all those valuable, sale-able firearms?
With a revolver at about half a months wages you would expect some canny person to be hanging about with his eye out for the main chance of a bit of profit!
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I have seen a photo of a Sheriff's Office with numerous guns decorating the walls, I guess he picked a few up?
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I was born in Mojave,Lone Pine ain't too far from there where they shot most westerns,always wanted to go back there and see if i could find any movie guns they forgot,when i met Harry carey Jr. i said i bet you have alot of guns from the movies and he said he didn't have a one,they were all props and they kept good inventory of them,but there has to be a couple out there Star Treck was filmed in the same area also,(there's that rock again) ;D
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The gripe seems to be that no 'cowboy' ever carried more than a revolver.
If they carried at all, it was likely a single pistol or a rifle on the horse. They did not, as I understand it, carry a firearm while Cowboying unless there was a fear of incident from human or animal predators. Oh, and the stuff I have suggests that they always carried their pistols when courting as they thought the whole getup made them far more attractive. The source I refer to, The Cowboy by Philip Ashton Rollins, also indicates that guys who wore more than one gun (or wore fancy rigs) were either lawmen or wannabes.
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Of course part of the problem is that not everyone West of the Mississippi was an actual Cowboy and not everyone was a Cowboy all the time.
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Of course part of the problem is that not everyone West of the Mississippi was an actual Cowboy and not everyone was a Cowboy all the time.
Agreed, but I doubt farmers ever carried a two gun rig, or bankers, railroad men, miners and prospectors, cooks, bankers, shepherds, surveyors . . . .
I don't know about criminal elements, but I would guess that if you were to see heavily armed men they would likely be in the criminal/lawman arena.
Hickock always carried two did he not?
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Look how long it took the "westerner" to replace his cap & Ball Revolver with a cartridge handgun. You could always get powder and lead for balls, but a box of cartridges was way to expensive for most folks on the frontier and you have to find a store that sold cartridges.
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Combustible cartridges were available pretty much everywhere, from the Civil War, on.
They were present in the Dry Goods and Hardware stores - and were available via shipment from the big Mail Order houses.
The myth of the two-gun cowboy was largely a dime novel thing - reinforced by the Dime Novels - and those novels and 'Penny Dreadfulls' were common entertainment throughout East, where the saga of the Frontier was told and re-told.
Scouts Out!
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The myth of the two-gun cowboy was largely a dime novel thing
Except that many actually did carry two, or more.
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Prove it...
That's what this is about - provenance, not inference or wishful thinking a'la C&WAS' stages.
Look at the reality of the Old West - and not what one 'thinks' may have happened, based upon modern-day experiences.
That's the idea behind the 'Woulda If They Coulda' posse - and those guys all believe that what they see in the old 'John Ford Reference Library' is real, and not cooked up to entertain with derring-do and dire situations.
The cowboy's primary job was that of a drover - not as a wanna-be gunman - loaded for bear, and armed to the teeth - the job was moving cattle.
That job was performed by young men - boys, in many cases - and with young men, testosterone is in huge supply - meaning that they'll fight at the drop of a hat over imagined slights.
Ranchers didn't want that - they wanted their cattle to get to a railhead with all hands - so for most outfits, the sidearms were stowed with their soogans and warbags, back in one of the wagons - taken out when the situation meant they were actually needed and not when emotions ran high.
The rest of the populace was invested in building a better life than what they'd had before the Civil War - if they carried - they carried smaller weapons that were more easily concealed.
Trail towns turned into 'towns' pretty quickly, and as they 'civilized' themselves and built churches and schools, they enacted laws that forbade carrying a sidearm in certain sectors of the town - and they actually fined for infractions, because no one wanted to raise a family amid the nascent violence that liquor and ready access to weapons brings.
Then, as now - folks mostly just want to be left alone to raise families and hopefully prosper as part of a community.
Read the Time-Life series 'The Old West' - it'll give a good overview of the 'real' Old West, and not the 'reel' version - and read those diaries and accounts of folks that weren't lawmen (who sometimes had a legitimate reason to be heavily armed), but cattlemen.
'Cowboys' were a very small part of the panoply of folks who settled the West - albeit the most 'romantic' part - but there was more to the American frontier than most are aware.
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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Looots of talk about cowboys...
So, on the subject of cowboys... I've seen quite a few historical photo's of cowboys not wearing a gunbelt. I hope we all agree no gunbelt don't equal no gun.
Still on the subject of cowboys, when I was a little kid I remember asking an older than dirt cowboy (I grew up in rocky mountain ranch country) why he carried a pistol, there were no indians around anymore. His response was to the effect that pistols were for shooting mean horses/cattle/wildcats that got the jump on you. And cowboys used rifles if they had to shoot anything else.
So, now that we're past a pistol being a primary fighting tool (at least in my mind)...
There were a lot of people in the old west, and as someone posted several times, they weren't all cowboys.
So in my humble opinion, the lawmen, badmen, gunmen, etc... That depended on the pistols they carried for backup to their primary fighting tool... Why would carrying an extra pistol be any different than modern LEO's/Military carrying an extra magazine or two for their pistol?
Neither LEO's or Military are gonna try to get in a fight with a pistol, but they still carry the ability to quickly get their pistol shooting again.
So why wouldn't someone in the same situation carry an extra pistol, if they could afford it?
Or am I trying to apply common sense were it doesn't apply?
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The original thread was about 'cowboys' and not professional gun men - there's a big difference.
Scouts Out!
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So why wouldn't someone in the same situation carry an extra pistol, if they could afford it?
No I think that is the point, probably lawmen and criminals would be the most likely to carry more than one sidearm. That does not preclude cowboys from doing so, just that they would have been less likely to do so.
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Hi
This info is posted elsewhere on the site, but anyway.
I read a book a couple of years ago that was written by a turn of the century (1895-1920 time frame) cowboy. He kept a lever action rifle and a pistol with him. The lever action on the horse, and the pistol in his bed roll. I think he mentioned not shooting the pistol, but using the rifle against wolves sometimes. His primary method of killing wolves was to lasso them and drag them to death because it didn't waste a bullet. Wolves must have been more friendly back then...
Just me and a VERY old cowboy's $0.02
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Maybe I haven't read carefully enough, but I don't think anyone yet has mentioned that a six-gun was considered a "tool" in handling rank and wild longhorns and Mexican steers. Occasionally, it was necessary to drop the leaders if a stampede couldn't be turned by gunfire.
I don't think anyone has mentioned personal experience re/ the awkwardness of mounting a horse with a Hollywood two-gun "gunfighter" buscadero rig. As per the cavalryman, many rigs were cross-draw so gun and holster wouldn't be so much in the way when mounting/dismounting. Utility on horseback also favors shorter barrel length than the Army issue 7-1/2".
"Cowboy" history is pretty hard to generalize . . . especially since it's still being written . . . ;D
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Utility on horseback also favors shorter barrel length than the Army issue 7-1/2".
Rollins observations indicated that the standard pistol carried by a cowboy was the full length barrel models. I'm with you, for climbing on and off a horse I'd have thought a shorter barrel was handier.
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"Cowboy" history is pretty hard to generalize . . . especially since it's still being written . . . ;D
Yup! :D
Some in Hollywood, and some on the internet! ::)
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Rollins observations indicated that the standard pistol carried by a cowboy was the full length barrel models. I'm with you, for climbing on and off a horse I'd have thought a shorter barrel was handier.
I'm sure someone in here can find the actual prices right quick, but I'd imagine that "standard" 7 1/2" models woulda been cheaper, then as now.
And since we're talking about cowhands, that didn't make a whole lot of money...
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I'm sure someone in here can find the actual prices right quick, but I'd imagine that "standard" 7 1/2" models woulda been cheaper, then as now.
And since we're talking about cowhands, that didn't make a whole lot of money...
Well, and I always carried longer barrels because of the sighting plane. I wasn't thinking of shooting a guy across a table but of shooting a Mountain Lion or Rabbit in the distance etc. I wanted velocity and better aim.
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Most carried longer barrels because most weren't that good a shot, and a longer barrel has a lesser margin of error.
Take a look at Rattenbury's 'Packing Iron' and you'll see a heavy selection of long-barrelled Colts, Remingtons, Smith & Wessons and everything else.
Colt SAA barrel lengths - date of the first factory models made in the following lengths:
7 1/2" - first introduced in 1873
5 1/2" - first introduced in 1875
4 3/4" - first introduced in 1879
This doesn't mean that they made it 'out West' at that time - to be sold as regular shelf stock - only that the length was cataloged as being available.
Cowboys bought what was available at the time they were at the store, and had the money - and after buying new clothes, a bath and a shave, maybe new boots or even a new saddle and a bit of a good time - given the wages of 'Forty a Month and Found' - there wasn't much left before they were either cut loose from the drive, or went back to the brand.
Scouts Out!
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Good thread.
- I recall reading about a farmer in the Dakotas who had converted a pair of caplock .44s to fire cartridges. He wore those guns proudly and was infamous for getting drunk in town and on the way home would frequently decide to camp-- in the middle of the road. He'd just rip up fence posts and light a fire in the middle of the road. If anyone came along and tried to kick out his fire to pass along the road, he'd drunkenly let loos with those guns.
He was considered a sort of a local menace.
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Somewhere I have a copy of an interview with a Texas Ranger from 1902. He said that all the Rangers he knew at the time carried a pair of Colts. They would draw and aim both hand guns at a perp before identifying themselves as Rangers. There was less trouble that way.
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One historical remembrance by a fellow talked about a cowboy on a train getting drunk and shooting up the car a little bit with a pair of pistols. No one stopped him. But when he shot the end off a man's cigar, a railroad agent drew a pocket gun and blew his brains out.
If people carried and what guns people carried, really depended upon time and place.
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SO! To sum it all up;
Three kinds of folks were known to carry more than one gun;
1. Law enforcement
2. Hardened criminals
3. CRAZY drunken anal-apertures (BTW; spell check knows this term!)
Others only when there was need and availability
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SO! To sum it all up;
Three kinds of folks were known to carry more than one gun;
1. Law enforcement
2. Hardened criminals
3. CRAZY drunken anal-apertures (BTW; spell check knows this term!)
Others only when there was need and availability
I'd probably add ANYONE with the means to procure a second pistol who expected to get into a fight.
Just to add further confusion to this though, I remember reading a report from the Johnson County war, from some sort of LE, on the weapons confiscated.
It included details on person, number and type of guns, and cartridge belts etc... I remember being surprised to read how many of the rifles were "big-bore" vs 73's chambered for smaller rounds.
Seems like most of the smaller cartridge rifles were from the individuals that gave a more southern home of record than the Wyoming boys. I think I also remember just about the only instances of more than one pistol being the southern (TX/NM) boys too.
But I've slept a few times since I read it, so...
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SO! To sum it all up;
Three kinds of folks were known to carry more than one gun;
1. Law enforcement
2. Hardened criminals
3. CRAZY drunken anal-apertures (BTW; spell check knows this term!)
Others only when there was need and availability
Now that hits just about plumb center. Carrying A sidearm to protect yourself is being careful, carrying 2 or more is advertising that you're looking for someone to use them on. Big difference!
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I'd probably add ANYONE with the means to procure a second pistol who expected to get into a fight.
It included details on person, number and type of guns, and cartridge belts etc... I remember being surprised to read how many of the rifles were "big-bore" vs 73's chambered for smaller rounds.
Quite likely. Hunting game in the mountains and plains requires a tad more "carry" than the average .44-40 allows. Roosevelt loved him some Sharps and Winchester big bore guns.
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Seems to me there is little bit of confusion based on the original posting"
Some folks have a problem with CAS Shooters using more than one gun.
The argument being that a Cowboy couldn't afford more than one gun.
Well, not everyone was a Cowboy and some Cowboys did better than others.
Is the question being asked if folks carried more than one "gun" or is the intent did they carry more than one "Revolver".
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Is the question being asked if folks carried more than one "gun" or is the intent did they carry more than one "Revolver".
Did they carry two revolvers, or how common was it anyway. The story he references is about a group of prospectors in Apache Territory. I think it's reasonable to assume they were well armed. How common was it for basic Cowboys after 1873 riding the range? Not very common according to what has been postulated or found so far, unless they were lawmen/outlaws or dandies posing as tough men. That is not to say it did not occur, but it was less likely than the movies and magazines made out that glorified the period.
My question is: what has that to do with CAS scenarios? Nothing to my mind, we're about the myth as much as the reality to my thinking.
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;D Love reading the differant opinions on this. I tend to think unless you were a lawman, guard. outlaw or Cavalryman.there wernt much use for a handgun.Most every body would have had a rifle or a shotgun maybe for hunting and self protection with the odd military surplus colt or remington living its life loaded in a drawer. So as to the origanal post I doubt the average person carried more than one gun. And the yprofessionals only when they were going in harms way. Just my two cents and worth every penny.
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I don’t think it was common at all. $20-$50 for a new gun was a big purchase for a cowboy making $1 a day. Townspeople who might better be able to afford it were likely to be banned from carrying guns in town or if they did, it was likely in a coat pocket.
Nearly all of the period photographs were staged and people probably armed up to make an impression. Studio photos often used props for effect. Having a photograph made was special occasion and many people might not have had more than a couple of photos in their lifetime. The cameras needed long exposure times even in daylight and the subjects had to hold still for several seconds so impromptu or real action photos were rare.
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I don’t think it was common at all. $20-$50 for a new gun was a big purchase for a cowboy making $1 a day. Townspeople who might better be able to afford it were likely to be banned from carrying guns in town or if they did, it was likely in a coat pocket.
Nearly all of the period photographs were staged and people probably armed up to make an impression. Studio photos often used props for effect. Having a photograph made was special occasion and many people might not have had more than a couple of photos in their lifetime. The cameras needed long exposure times even in daylight and the subjects had to hold still for several seconds so impromptu or real action photos were rare.
Yeah in his treatise on Tombstone, Guinn notes that the Earp Posse likely rented guns to arm up and the expense of rented guns, horses, etc. weighed them down.
See: Guinn, J. 2001. The Last Gunfight: The Real Story of the Shootout at the O.K. Corral-And How It Changed the American West. Simon and Schuster, New York, NY.
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FWIW, that's a good read ! IMHO
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I don’t think it was common at all. $20-$50 for a new gun was a big purchase for a cowboy making $1 a day. Townspeople who might better be able to afford it were likely to be banned from carrying guns in town or if they did, it was likely in a coat pocket.
Nearly all of the period photographs were staged and people probably armed up to make an impression. Studio photos often used props for effect. Having a photograph made was special occasion and many people might not have had more than a couple of photos in their lifetime. The cameras needed long exposure times even in daylight and the subjects had to hold still for several seconds so impromptu or real action photos were rare.
- Remember, 2,200,000 men fought for the Union during the Civil War. When they were mustered out of service (those that survived) were given their choice of a rifle and a pistol to take home with them. Lots of returning Vets went West to make a new start.
- Remington .46 transition revolvers came out in the early 1870s at the retail price of $9 and if you grab an early 1900's mail order catalogue you'll find lots of handguns in the $1.75-$6. range.
- Coat pocket guns were always a really good seller. As I recall, the little 1849 'Baby dragoon' .32 was made all the way into the 1870's and was one of Colt's best sellers. So Yes, lots of folks had a gun in their pocket, or could carry one if they felt they needed to.
- I don't have my Flayderman's guide available at the moment (Library is still packed), but as I recall, All the famous percussion guns, Colt and Remington .36's & .44's, ran over the 250,000s during their production. (smaller 'police' models ran, I think, above the 150,000s).
Remember, a 'cowboy' was a legend in his own mind. ;) They often did things like carrying guns or going to town in flashy clothing on Saturday night, just because they thought that's what a 'cowboy' should do.
That is a good point about 'period photos' being staged. That's probably why so many of the cartridge belts have no cartridges in them. However there are also period writings documenting how people were armed. Sometimes everyone in an area rode around heavily armed, other times nobody rode around armed. Just depended upon time and place. Elmer Keith wrote about offering to shoot it out with a sheriff who had threatened him in the early 1900s. My mother still remembers my great-great Uncle buckling on his .45 to go and talk to someone about what they'd been saying about him in Spearfish, that would've been in the 30s. As I've been told, my great-great aunt's ranch hand still wore a .45 when he went to Deadwood on Saturday nights. My mom said that she always remembered him polishing up all the cartridges in his belt as a part of getting ready to go 'do the town'.
Like driving a fancy car, sometimes people do things they don't need or can't afford just 'cause they want to.
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Hi,
After reviewing all THREE PAGES of this thread, I slipped into my bathroom and weighed my 5 & 1/2" Rugers ( 2 & 1/2 Lbs each; probably 3 Lbs. loaded) ...
Then I loaded the leather for two Colts (again, no powder or ball nut a Big Bowie and sheath added). The result was 10 Lbs.
So if I was a cowboy, I would let the HORSE carry the extra four Lbs of weight in the saddlebags, and only pull out the extra hogleg (and possible holster) when i needed it.
Just my $0.02
TTFN,
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Hi,
Should anyone say that the weight is all in the Bowie; I just weighed it ... the 8 & 1/2" bladed knife is but i a little bit over 1 lb.
[IMG] (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/WaddWatsonEllis/media/WillGhormleySchfldHolsterswROAsChuckBurrowsBeltKnife.jpg.html)
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The "Big" knife pretty much went away when cartridge firing weapons came in. And they certainly would not be carried by a cowboy on a trail drive.
There are several good group photos of Texas Rangers and nearly all of them have a rifle, one pistol and a moderate sized belt knife.
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If some people did carry more than one revolver it means that it was done. The argument against seems to be that no one ever carried more than one. I think enough examples have been made to say without a doubt that it was done but not by everyone.
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I agree that it is pretty sure that some did carry two pistols although it was not a common practice. I would like to see someone provide an example of someone carrying two pistols, a rifle, and a shotgun.
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I agree that it is pretty sure that some did carry two pistols although it was not a common practice. I would like to see someone provide an example of someone carrying two pistols, a rifle, and a shotgun.
Amen!
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I would like to see someone provide an example of someone carrying two pistols, a rifle, and a shotgun.
;D Well dang, even SASS does not carry two pistols, a rifle and a shotgun! They stage them and then move rapidly from one to the other. If you was in a cabin and new that bad folks were a commin, you might stage a couple rifles, shotguns and have two or three revolvers primed to go. :)
But point well taken.
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am I missing something here but if I recall correctly cowboys were always confronted by bandits and native tribesmen not to mention the deadly animals they were in constant contact with but they kept their guns on the chuck wagon or back at the bunkhouse when they were pushin or punchin doggies?
someone ought to get their facts straight before writing this down as a matter of fact. ;D
and the burden of proof aint on me 8)
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am I missing something here but if I recall correctly cowboys were always confronted by bandits and native tribesmen...
According to Hollywood, yes. In reality, no. The Indian Wars were practically over in Kansas & Texas by the time the cattle drives reached high tide.
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cowboys were always confronted by bandits and native tribesmen
???
someone ought to get their facts straight before writing this down as a matter of fact.
Agreed.
It seems like a lot of folks get their idea of what a cowboy was and did from Bonanza. ::) A cowboy was nothing but a (usually) young fella that worked his rear off from sun up to sun down for someone else. They were generally not "gunfighters". Their horses were not loaded down with guns and ammo. Some ranches even had rules against carrying guns. The XIT ranch in Texas had a rule that stated "No employee of the company, or of any contractor doing work for the company, is permitted to carry on or about his person or in his saddle bags, any pistol, dirk, dagger, sling shot, knuckles, bowie knife or any other similar instruments of offense or defense". They weren't allowed to drink or gamble either. A cowboy had a hard, dirty existence and Hollywood does it's best to show the opposite. To romanticize it. Hollywood doesn't show cowboys picking lice off themselves, or dancing with each other due to a lack of women.
(http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss359/mjn77/df05_zps3b0d287a.jpg) (http://s591.photobucket.com/user/mjn77/media/df05_zps3b0d287a.jpg.html)
The Hollywood "cowboy" is a creature of myth that bears little resemblance to the real deal. "Cowboy" shooting is a fantasy game based on the cowboy "myth" of the silver screen. The two gun hero that shoots straight and always gets the girl. A real cowboy was just a physical laborer that lived a rough life and usually developed knee and back problems because of the time he spent in the saddle. If you want to know what it was like to be a cowboy, read books that were written by actual cowboys instead of Louis L'amour.
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According to Hollywood, yes. In reality, no. The Indian Wars were practically over in Kansas & Texas by the time the cattle drives reached high tide.
But Kansas and Texas were not the only places that had Indians and cowboys - New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Utah, Wyoming, and Montana - all places where Indians and cowboys at times had confrontations and in the case of the SW this went on until the 1880's...
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But Kansas and Texas were not the only places that had Indians and cowboys - New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Utah, Wyoming, and Montana - all places where Indians and cowboys at times had confrontations and in the case of the SW this went on until the 1880's...
Hello and Thank you!
I know that "HOLLYWOOD" over dramatizes the cowboy culture and I have no doubt most folks were not strapped down with a hog leg on their side however there were folks,( Not just "Cowboys and Lawmen") who armed themselves on a daily basis. it carrying a firearm in that era was just mainstream and it was accepted as normal for folks to carry.
and I didnt watch Bonanza I got my history from High Chapparal ;D
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The complaints mostly come from those that DO NOT shoot Cowboy Action but want an excuse to bitch. Kinda like those guys that watch a Football Game and raise sand about the way it's being played but then huff and puff just waddlin' to the ridge for another beer.
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The "Big" knife pretty much went away when cartridge firing weapons came in. And they certainly would not be carried by a cowboy on a trail drive.
There are several good group photos of Texas Rangers and nearly all of them have a rifle, one pistol and a moderate sized belt knife.
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the bowie knife never went away Folks still carry them to this day.
ya those are the guns that are in plain view.
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The Bowie knife didn't go away it shrunk. In general terms they (and other similar knives) went from a blade of a foot or more down to about six inches.
My pre-Civil war Bowie has a nine + inch blade and my post-Civil war Bowie has a six inch blade.
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are your pre and post civil war Bowies real relics or are they modern copys?
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I can't put my finger on the book right now, but IIRC there are several photos of cowboys up Montana-way (1880's - 1910 or so), wearing a sixgun in a crossdraw holster. First of all, there could be problems with your horse throwing you, a foot stuck in the stirrup, and the sixgun might save your life by shooting the horse! Rabid skunks, coyotes, etc., could also require dispatching on the range. (The mountain states sometimes have cycles of rabies in these animals. Be sure your pets are vaccinated!)
As to packing two guns, not only was that too expensive for the average cowpoke, but excepting during a rangewar, it might be prudent...if you could afford it. There might be exceptions in the decades following the CW, during the transition from cap-n-ball to cartridge, and depending on where an individual was headed. If a man had acquired a second percussion revolver, he might pack both of them. A number of officers or more affluant veterans might have acquired a smaller caliber rimfire gun, such as S&W #1's in .22 short rimfire, or a #2 in .32 short rimfire as a backup gun, or perhaps some other cheap pocket gun. Don't forget, even a small caliber projectile was respected, nearly as much as a .44 or .45. It was not a question of stopping power, but fear of sometimes fatal infection that could result from a gunshot wound of anykind. In the CW more people died from lockjaw (tetanus) than any other cause except maybe cholera or typhus. (It was worse in the Eastern battlefields because the grounds were polluted with tetanus from horses and cattle feces. But you could still get a fatal case of "lead poisoning" from the dirt and debris carried into a wound, even by a small bullet or ball! :( Not a pleasant way to die. )
So, was it common for a cowboy to pack two guns? No, and if the outfit he worked for forbade it, none, but never say "Never!" and don't say "Always!" either.
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Ya I agree with the above, wearing two matched guns were not common place however some did and some had a second gun that other folks didn't know about like a derringer or a pocket revolver and some folks had a gun in every pocket It just depended on the individuals lifestyle.
but to make an absolute statement that no one ever carried 2 guns is absolute ignorance
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Texas Rangers in the 1840s would carry Colt Walker .44s. Two on the belt, two on the saddle. Terry's Texas Rangers out of Houston area did the same thing typically with lighter .36 Navy or .44 Army Colt revolvers...and a 12 Gauge shotgun rather than a sabre. Armed to the teeth they were. But then, they were arming for war and supplied by sources other than themselves.
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some afterthoughts from my post above
The cowboys that rode the cattle trails from Texas following the War Between the States were mostly ex-confederate soldiers returning home or migrating west from other Southern states that had been burned over by the Yankees. Being soldiers many of these men, particularly cavalry or officers, would often carrying more than one pistol. Ball and cap Colt Army or Navy type pistols. As noted, these men didn't have much money so, even after the cartridge days came, still made due with what they had. Seems more likely that they carried what was left of what they were issued or had during the war.
Even Indian warriors took what they could get from Indian traders or off the bodies of dead white men. This was anything from old flintlock guns to ball and cap handguns or single shot carbines (ball and cap or cartridge) or, yes, even repeaters. (which they would modify to their liking.
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...Being soldiers many of these men, particularly cavalry or officers, would often carrying more than one pistol...
With all due respect, you are basing that on what primary historical source? As a note, John Wesley Hardin noted about having to hold a cylinder steady on a cap 'n ball revolver as it was so loose. One would think that a gunman of his stature would have grabbed his second revolver if he had one. Truth be told, not all cowboys were armed as they worked. The areas they travelled were for the most part totally safe from Indian depredations by the mid 1870's. Weapons were often stored in a wagon.
In order to properly understand this era one needs to literally purge their mind of all Hollywood nonsense and the idea that every "waddy" (the term used for cowboys at the time) worked with a saddlebag brimming with spare revolvers.
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Ya wild animals were much more dossile back then and did not attack cowboys or the cows they were charged to look over while working the range so there was no need for any firearms ::)
if you can use common sense to speculate why cowboys would have adopted reasons why to use more than one gun dont you think some of those cowboys would have had the same common sense to think about the same thing back then when it would have actually been relevant?
there were even possibly things in history that was not written about because it didn't seem important to write about at the time.
just because it was not written about by some historian don't mean something didn't happen.
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Lets see,i'm a trail boss,i need a bunch of transients with some exsperience to ride herd,well i ain't gonna have a bunch of yayhoos with guns that would most likely shoot me and run off with the herd,maybe those few i trust and have worked with.
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This thread's reached the end of it's useful life when 'Woulda If They Coulda' enters into the picture.
I'll close it soon.
Scouts Out!
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The Walker Colt came out in 1847. There were 1100 produced. One thousand went to the army (Regiment of Mounted Rifles). Only one hundred were made for the civilian market.
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With all due respect, you are basing that on what primary historical source? As a note, John Wesley Hardin noted about having to hold a cylinder steady on a cap 'n ball revolver as it was so loose. One would think that a gunman of his stature would have grabbed his second revolver if he had one. Truth be told, not all cowboys were armed as they worked. The areas they travelled were for the most part totally safe from Indian depredations by the mid 1870's. Weapons were often stored in a wagon.
In order to properly understand this era one needs to literally purge their mind of all Hollywood nonsense and the idea that every "waddy" (the term used for cowboys at the time) worked with a saddlebag brimming with spare revolvers.
I'm not saying "everybody" and I'm not saying they always carried them. I'm just saying it very possible based on the documented fact that a lot of Confederate soldiers, particuarly cavalry, carried more than one pistol. Two or as many as four (I.E. Terry's Texas Rangers). In spite of what appears in Josey Wales, a lot of these soldiers didn't just hand over all weapons to union officials and get gunned down, most of them just went home after their respective armies surrendered to try to rebuild or make something of a life after finding out their home had been destroyed. Many of these soldiers went to Texas or came back home to Texas to work as cowboys on the trails to drive beef to markets north. They didn't need to go out and buy new guns, many of them likely already had old ones.
Traveling back then was dangerous business. Even moreso than today.
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Doug, you keeping going over "plowed" ground here over & over. Your question has been repeatedly answered here in this thread. An objective look at history does not deal with "possibilities" or theories in as such. What matters are concrete & verifiable facts. Conjecture & proselytizing are best left to the preachers, politicians & philosophers.
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All I can say is read the memoirs written by the men that were actually there. The ACTUAL cowboys of the time. I bet a couple of you would be highly surprised at what they did and didn't do.
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If you look at the production numbers, it just doesn't hold up. The US population varied from about 17 million in 1840 to 40 million in 1870.
Less than 20,000 Walker/Dragoons over a 13 year period. 215,000 of the 1851 in 23 years. 300,000 of the 1849 in its 23 production life. 200,000 1860s over 13 years. 230,000 of the Remington 1858.
In comparison, 174,000 Winchester 1866 were produced. 720,000 Model 1873. 63,000+ Model 1876.
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The Walker Colt came out in 1847. There were 1100 produced. One thousand went to the army (Regiment of Mounted Rifles). Only one hundred were made for the civilian market.
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what about the US Model 1847's that went to Captain Samuel Hamilton Walker and his Texas Rangers How many was made for them?
How many of those 1000 soldiers kept their weapon after they were discharged from service?
tHERE ARE A LOT OF DIFFRENT VARIABLES IN HISTORY THAT IS FAILED TO BE DISCUSSED HERE .
SO ya the thread should be closed if you refuse to adress the not so mainstream behavior of some folks back in the day.
we are not talking about the general population. cowboys were a small group of people who made up a very small part of the population.
l
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If you look at the production numbers, it just doesn't hold up. The US population varied from about 17 million in 1840 to 40 million in 1870.
Less than 20,000 Walker/Dragoons over a 13 year period. 215,000 of the 1851 in 23 years. 300,000 of the 1849 in its 23 production life. 200,000 1860s over 13 years. 230,000 of the Remington 1858.
In comparison, 174,000 Winchester 1866 were produced. 720,000 Model 1873. 63,000+ Model 1876.
you also have to take account of the several thousand Colt clones that were made by various companys in the southern states during thebreaking away of the south from the union
Starr, Smith and wesson London colts and other gun manufacturers have not been discussed.
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I would also remind everyone how the term "cowboy" came about to begin with
in the Tombstone Arazona territory was a notorious group of outlaws and they were called the cowboys.
I am pretty sure all those guys carried one or more pistolas ;D
back in the day the term cowboy would be a description of a thug in todays terms.
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Actually, that term came about to describe young boys who herded cows in England - well before they arrived on these shores.
It wasn't a revered job description, by any means.
By the way - they didn't carry guns at all...
There's more to the 'real' Old West that there is to the 'reel' Old West, and watching an AMC Western movie filmfest isn't going to make anyone smarter, because that's achieved by research and study.
Scouts Out!
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Sorry St George I was thinking more along the lines as to who popularized the term not the terms origin
never the less the cow boy gang was a real gang regardless of how the movies depict them.
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Doug, you keeping going over "plowed" ground here over & over. Your question has been repeatedly answered here in this thread. An objective look at history does not deal with "possibilities" or theories in as such. What matters are concrete & verifiable facts. Conjecture & proselytizing are best left to the preachers, politicians & philosophers.
Good research into history starts with possibilities, theories based on other concrete facts and going forward from there. I'm not citing Hollywood but history.
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. . . First of all, there could be problems with your horse throwing you, a foot stuck in the stirrup, and the sixgun might save your life by shooting the horse! Rabid skunks, coyotes, etc., . . .
I just can't let this post go by without a big thumbs up. What a picture that paints !! "First of all . . . " shoot the horse !! Priceless.
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I can't put my finger on the book right now, but IIRC there are several photos of cowboys up Montana-way (1880's - 1910 or so), wearing a sixgun in a crossdraw holster.
Yes, but the average picture did not accurately reflect the reality of the west. For example, every dude that came west bought a stylish, loud "Real Cowboy" outfit complete with guns and had his picture taken. Most photos of working cowboys at corrals, riding herd, etc., show fewer firearms. Rollins notes this fact in his study:
The Cowboy: An Unconventional History of Civilization on the Old-Time Cattle Range
Rollins participated in drives and was an educated man who went back to the range several times to study and carefully document actual cowboys. He also noted that almost all real cowboys carried full length pistols and says they knew how to shoot. He says that cowboys never carried unless they would be riding in territory expected to be dangerous or knew there were in fact dangerous animals about. He says that they did carry in town because they were showing off and that they always carried when courting because they felt it made them more attractive to the fairer sex. But when pushing cattle, he says firearms stayed in the wagons unless need dictated otherwise. So, our perception as shaped by photos of actual cowboys must take into account how many of those photos were staged. If a character wanted to get photos of real cowboys, they obliged by putting on all their crap, including guns. The amount of the book dedicated to guns is small, indicative as to their actual, not perceived, importance in the West.
Now, if you lived out there--say prospecting or living alone or such--you might be closer to a weapon at all times as you relied upon yourself more. I have known old timers and they always owned guns and could get to them, but they did not think about guns much or worry about them like we do today, it was simply a tool you could fetch and use like any other. Again, Lawmen and badmen and idiots who dressed like what they thought cowboys should be were the outliers, not the norm.
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you also have to take account of the several thousand Colt clones that were made by various companies in the southern states during the breaking away of the south from the union
Starr, Smith and Wesson London colts and other gun manufacturers have not been discussed.
The 20,000 number for Walker/Dragoon includes the 1,100 1847 model and all 3 Dragoon models. The 200,00 production run of 1860s includes the military contracts. I didn't take into account the several thousand revolvers made by the southern states. Nor did I account for S&Ws production or Colt Model 1873, Remington 1875 cartridge revolver production. I was looking specifically at Percussion revolver production and the largest volumes.
From 1847 to 1873 (25+ years) less than 1 million .36-.44 caliber revolvers were produced in the US. The small pocket pistols, derringers, and small caliber rimfire pistols were much more popular.
The percussion revolver was a vast improvement over prior technology. Standard pistols only gave one or two shots. Now you had 6. Pepperboxes were very heavy and most required hand indexing. Even so, percussion revolvers were heavy. With the introduction of the large caliber cartridge revolver the need to carry more than one handgun wasn't there. Except for a few well known exceptions, it didn't happen. It wasn't until Hollywood came along that the need arose again.
If you think about it why would you carry more than 1? They are heavy, they impede your movement, they aren't useful beyond a few yards, they are expensive. A lever action rifle with 14 shots and longer range was a far better investment than a revolver. A double barrel shotgun was an even better investment for most.
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Again, Lawmen and badmen and idiots who dressed like what they thought cowboys should be were the outliers, not the norm.
That is a great way of emphasizing what I said back on March 28, 2014!
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Pepperboxes were very heavy and most required hand indexing.
Dad says: "Son, if you have to hand index too much you might go blind!"
Son says: "Over here dad . . .dad . . .dad I'm over here . . ."
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From 1847 to 1873 (25+ years) less than 1 million .36-.44 caliber revolvers were produced in the US. The small pocket pistols, derringers, and small caliber rimfire pistols were much more popular.
Approximately 250,000 of that 1,000,000 were 1849 pocket models.
The Walkers and Dragoons were designed to be carried in pommel holsters. They are a bit heavy to wear a pair on your belt.
The 1851 Navy was the most popular belt model of the era.
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The original thread was about 'cowboys' and not professional gun men - there's a big difference.
More than one man living at the time was both off and on in a life time.
Also amazing how modern movies get intertwined here as fact. Trying to cover a lot of ground between 1860 and 1920. Things changed a lot over that time period of 60 short years in our country. Men often as not were soldier, cowboy, good man, desperate man, homesteader, farmer and finally gentleman city dweller all in one life time. I knew of a couple that worked both sides of the law in the late 1880s. One cared one or two guns every day until the day he died. I never saw the other (once a US Deputy Marshal in IT) with a gun.
Then there is the nonsense like Doc Holiday and Ringo carried nickeled 4 3/4" guns. Short guns were for rich men with easy access to dry goods and hardware stores. Long barrel guns were way more common early on and cheap later. Men bought a long gun (lever gun) generally prior to a hand gun.
What Farmer Tom said fer a quick reload and
"So, now that we're past a pistol being a primary fighting tool"
Better put previous.."never say never and never say always".
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Regarding revolvers, the rare photographs I've seen of "real cowboys" actually out on the trail don't show them wearing guns at all, most were just young men not much more than kids and most didn't even own the horses they were riding.
I think for any documentation of someone carrying more than one revolver you need to look to lawmen, outlaws, or gamblers. JB Hickock was known to at least own more than one, how many he actually carried I can't say. I understand some the Missouri outlaw gang members carried as much firepower as they could manage to obtain and carry during some of their robberies.
I doubt if a young man working as a cowboy would have kept two, even if he happened to somehow obtain a second he would have likely sold or traded it seeing as other essentials (and non essentials which may have seemed essential to a young boy) may have been important to him.
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"In The True Story of Kill or be Killed in the Real Old West the Frank "Pistol Pete" Eaton talks about carrying two pistols. I don't really know much about this book, however, it supposedly the recollections of Frank Eaton. Info: http://www.oldwestlawmansforgottenmemoir.com/
It is set in the Indian Territory 1870s."
Pistol Pete certainly was an exception to much of western history. But not that much of an aberration in IT during the time frames he writes of though IMO/families' experience.
Farmer Tom
"So not to bump up an old thread... But that site says he killed his first man at 16, with two 45 rounds. Which is fine.
But...
Then it says he started marshalling at 17, in 1872. I didn't think the 45 colt round was available until 73, with the release of the SAA.
And I'm pretty sure Frank Eaton was born in 1860. So like you said...
"Supposedly"
Might want to look at the dates and details again.
By his own accounts Eaton started with cap and ball guns. A Colt Navy, which seems reasonable enough and talks of them in greta detail. Then a pair of Navys when he proved he could use both hands. This as a 8 year old, 1868. He was given first one SAA in 1875 and then a second shortly after the first. He killed two men with them by the age of 16..in 1876. It was in 1877 that he became a US Deputy Marshal by his account. Time frames and use were consistent with the SAA introduction from what I read. Also found the way he acquired his 2 guns believable. Having read another unpublished first hand account of the time and place seems like a very believable story to me. A few gun errors on dates and models but the SAA wasn't one of them that I noticed.
Man might be offended if you questioned his honesty BITD by a simple error in arithmetic ;-)
I suspect a look at Carlie Russell's work can add more to the conversation than the previous 5 pages. But good as it is, only a quick look at what he saw and the people he knew. World was a mighty big place in the 1800s when you traveled by horse and a lot changed between 1860 and 1910.
(http://www.truewestmagazine.com/jcontent/images/resized/images/stories/jul-2013/jul-13_images-for-stories/charlie-russell-western-artist_300_200.jpg)
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Regarding revolvers, the rare photographs I've seen of "real cowboys" actually out on the trail don't show them wearing guns at all, most were just young men not much more than kids and most didn't even own the horses they were riding.
I doubt if a young man working as a cowboy would have kept two, even if he happened to somehow obtain a second he would have likely sold or traded it seeing as other essentials (and non essentials which may have seemed essential to a young boy) may have been important to him.
Yeah, I think this is quite likely the truth. Everything I have heard or read is that they traded all the time, guns, horses, tack, etc., so the idea of having a stash of guns--again outside outlaws, card sharps and con men, rich men, and lawmen--is out there. The fabled Earp "posse" reportedly rented many of their weapons and horses before setting out.
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Ya I agree with the above, wearing two matched guns were not common place however some did and some had a second gun that other folks didn't know about like a derringer or a pocket revolver and some folks had a gun in every pocket It just depended on the individuals lifestyle.
but to make an absolute statement that no one ever carried 2 guns is absolute ignorance
Nicely said, could not agree more.
I have heard of many a real cowboy who carried a pocket .32 or later .38. We assume they all loaded up with massive hand cannons. A slight fellow, used to carrying a pistol as a last resort option or dispatching sick animals, might well have carried a pocket piece alone. I do think men who made their living card sharping were likely to be well armed and good with guns of high quality. That's just part of the trade and there were many, many con artists and card sharps in the west.
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Pays to remember there were 192,000 1st gen Colt's SAA made up to 1900. 12,500 went to the Army. 28,000 were built in the last 4 years of the Century.
Up till 1945 the most common tools in the western American households was a shovel and some sort of long gun.
Handguns were and still are expensive by comparison to a long gun. Like hats, boots, saddle and chaps every part of the country had a particular "style" for the place and time.
1886 Winchesters in the Johnson County wars as an example.
Cattle drives were a major economic activity in the American west between 1866 and 1886. Only 120,000 Colt's SAA made by late 1886, and only 108,000 or so easily available to the population.
12,000 armed troopers and how many cowboys?
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Seems to me that this thread has a definition problem: The original question was about carrying more than one gun. Along the road, there has been a lot of discussion about 2 or 3 revolvers. Was the intent of the original question in regards to carrying multiple guns or multiple revolvers?
The focus also seemed to narrow itself down to the Cowboy. Now are folks talking about the cow boy that signed on to drive cattle to the rail head and then make their way to were ever, or are they talking about Cowboys (ranch hands) with full time employment?
My Great Grandfather was a lawman from the 1880's to the early 1900's. According to family lore he always carried a Colt and a small caliber backup gun in his coat pocket. He would also carry a rifle or a shotgun depending on the need at the time. My Grandfather had a pretty fair collection of his guns when I was a young boy that I understand went to an uncle and who knows were from there.
I find threads like this thought provoking as well as educational. They are also a great insight into how different folks can view the same thing to arrive at different conclusions. In other words, I enjoy them.
There has been one thing stated over and over as fact that does bother me, because of my own life experience and memory.
The American Cowboy was poor and could not afford more than one gun, if he could even afford that.
In the 1880's a cowboy was paid about $30.00 a month plus his food and lodging if he worked on a ranch. Converted to today's money that would be $630 after food and rent.
In 1963 I left home and joined the military and was paid $73.00 per month plus my food and lodging. Converted to today's money that would be $521.00
I bought a car, I bought more than a couple of guns, did a whole lot of gambling and drinking as well as chasing the ladies. Because of this I never have been able to wrap my head around the idea that this young feller could not afford to buy a couple of used guns if he wanted. I do believe he would put more stock in buying one revolver and a good rifle, but that is just based on what I would have done.
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This thread came to mind today looking up some other info. Dalton boys and 1m may be 2 pards all took a new pair of 6 guns and a Winchesters to Coffeyville. Grat (iirc) came to town the night previous for a drink wearing his new pair of 6 guns and caused quite a stir. Two guns were unusual. Two engraved guns with pearl handles even more so.
When the shooting was done the guns were gathered up...8 accounted for of the 10 Bob ordered. So definitive answer where or who had the last pair for sure. But some speculation by researchers a pair was traded for fresh horse flesh to be used on the get away and some old oral history to back that up. If the story is to be believed.
Almost as interesting, is that most if not all the six guns were unfired when the shooting was over. Town folk and gang members as well did their shooting with rifles.
But there are 4 gunman here that are historically very well documented as using dbl guns. Have to think the Daltons didn't invent the idea, as they were intentionally trying to best the James/Younger gang tactics.
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See my post at the bottom of page 2. Nuff said.
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Three kinds of folks were are known to carry own more than one gun ;D
1. Law enforcement
2. Hardened criminals
3. CRAZY drunken anal-apertures
Others only when there was need, opportunity, availability and spare cash!
Got it!
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I know this is an old thread, so forgive me if I'm resurrecting.
My great great granddad owned a ranch near Big Spring, TX from 1882-onwards. In the history written by his son, I have this:
'Ole always carried two sidearms to protect his cattle from rustlers.'
Now whether this is influenced by dime novels, I cannot say. Ole at that time would have been 62, and his son Andrew was 22- so he may have been embellishing, but he was definitely old enough then to not have a 5 year old's colored glasses so to speak. However, this timeline is a good 10 years after the 1872 Texas law prohibiting open carry of firearms. He does not fit the term 'cowboy' in that he owned the ranch and he was in his sixties, but he was a ranch owner, and in Texas. His son ran the ranch from 1884-1895. I thought it interesting family history at any rate.
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I have no idea how authentic it was, but twenty-thirty years ago, at a collectors' show I saw a M1886 Winchester in .38-56 WCF that purportedly was used by one of the Daltons at Coffeeville. Another interesting thing is how everyone shooting in CAS uses shortbarrel "coach" shotguns. But, if you look at photos of express car and shotgun messengers on stage coaches, most of the guns had long barrels. OTOH, I have seen a fairly-well authenticated M1886 with a 16-3/8" barrel and a half-magazine, cal. .40-65WCF, which was probably used in a railroad express car. The Wells Fargo Museum called it a local purchase item bought by one of their field offices. Hard to tell if it was cut down or originally in the short barrel, as the actual measurement matches the standard length for a nominally 16" barrel. One thing I've learned in history is never say, "never", and never say, "always". Look hard enough and you can find just about anything.
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Years ago my old Life Guard Captain had befriended a very old cowboy who came to a point in his journey where he could
See that he was soon be crossing that great divide we all must cross. The old cowboy appreciated the friendship the young
Man had shown him and gifted him his working guns which were a 1892 Winchester with 24 inch barrel and a Colt SAA
With 7&1/2 inch barrel--both in 32-20. Both were used but well maintained. The Captain was mature enough to value the
Guns more for the meaning behind the gift than for their monetary value.
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. However, this timeline is a good 10 years after the 1872 Texas law prohibiting open carry of firearms. He does not fit the term 'cowboy' in that he owned the ranch and he was in his sixties, but he was a ranch owner, and in Texas. His son ran the ranch from 1884-1895. I thought it interesting family history at any rate.
Very interesting.
Not to get too off topic, but this 1872 law smells of Reconstruction gov't. Efforts to disarm the Texans as they opposed reconstruction policies, results thereof and protecting themselves from the lawlessness via vigilantism. Reconstruction officially ended in 1877 and Texas took it's state government back in 1874 ending the Edmund Davis radical republican regime when Governor Coke took office. So I kind of doubt this law stayed in effect or, if it did (open carry is currently illegal in Texas), that it was applied to true blue--er gray Texans ;) and instead was occasionally used to keep what they considered lawless and dangerous people and outsiders disarmed (right or wrong).
Also consider, Texas ranches tend to be very large in the central, western and southern parts of the state. Open carry on your own property (at least as the law is today) is legal I believe.
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Colonel Jack Coffee Hays and his Second Regiment of Texas Rangers arrived at Veracruz on October 17, 1847, just two days later the first consignment of 394 of the 1,000 Colt Walker "six-shooter" revolvers as had been ordered were delivered at Veracruz and issued to the Rangers. Another 180 revolvers were then issued to Captain Walker's Company (Company C), and more than a month passed before a second consignment of 500 revolvers arrived and were issued. Initial planning called for the issue of two pistols to each soldier, along with a single powder flask, bullet mould, and a combination tool for disassembly and cleaning. These were typically stored in pommel holsters mounted either side of the saddle pommel for ease of access and weather protection.
Many of the Walker Colt revolvers were lost in service, and in one single battle in which Truitt's company lost some ten revolvers, in the battle of Sequalteplan (now Zacualtipan) situated about 75 miles northeast of Mexico City in the mountains (in the State of Hidalgo) was a battle that lasted barely ten minutes! A few years ago, a Walker Colt revolver that had been carried by a Private Sam Wilson of Company D was sold at auction for US$920,000. Of the 976 revolvers issued to the five companies of Hays' Texas Rangers, at wars end we know of only 409 that were returned to the government, nearly 300 of which were returned for repairs due to a ruptured cylinder. Of the 220 issued to Company A, only 39 are known to survive, together with 27 of the 204 issued to Company B, 37 of the 219 issued to Company C, 26 of the 218 issued to Company D, and 18 of the 115 issued to Truitt's (afterwards Captain Ephraim Daggett's) Company E from Shelby County. Of some 1091 sold in private sales to civilians only 16 are known to survive.
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Snakeeater, that's great information. Can you tell me where you are finding it? I have a good reason to ask. Here is my great-great grandfather's enlistment card:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/32837236697_2f31d5f0fa_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/S2Hqrp)record-image_3QSQ-G9MF-LJJG (https://flic.kr/p/S2Hqrp) by ComeWatson (https://www.flickr.com/photos/93930283@N08/), on Flickr
As you can see by his grave stone in Junction, Texas, he fibbed about his age.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4532/37898269225_34640aa67d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ZJWx5V)jimwaylandtxgrave (https://flic.kr/p/ZJWx5V) by ComeWatson (https://www.flickr.com/photos/93930283@N08/), on Flickr
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Of course, Hays' Second Texas Regiment of Mounted Volunteers (Texas Rangers) had been federalized, so you are correct that we know for a fact just who was issued these revolvers we also know who lost them and how many were lost, as well as how many exploded in use. In Company E alone, we know the following named individuals lost one or more of their revolvers: Pvt. James Chandler (A.M. Truitt's Co, Second Texas), lost one six-shooter at battle of Sequalteplan, Feb 25, 1848; Pvt. Cleveland Coffee (C. Ashton's Co E, Second Texas), lost one six-shooter, cost $30; Pvt. Asa Dial (A.M. Truitt's Co, Second Texas), lost one six-shooter; Pvt. William Fields (A.M. Truitt's Co, Second Texas), lost one six-shooter at Sequalteplan; Pvt. James Hall (Co E, Second Texas), lost one six-shooter; Pvt. William Hammock (A.M. Truitt's Co, Second Texas), lost one six-shooter at Sequalteplan; Pvt. Prince B. Hawes (Ashton's Co E, Second Texas), lost one six-shooter (died at Mexico City, Dec 15, 1847); Pvt. Dennis Hays (C. Ashton's Co E, Second Texas), lost one six-shooter, cost $30; Pvt. Oliver Lathrop (A.M. Truitt's Co, Second Texas), lost one six-shooter and 1 rifle (died at Mexico City, Apr 8, 1848); Pvt. Hezekiah McKelvy (A.M. Truitt?s Co, Second Texas), lost three pistols with holsters and housings; Pvt. R. W. McMullen (Handley's Co, Second Texas), lost one six-shooter; Pvt. Nathan B. Phillips (A.M. Truitt's Co, Second Texas), lost two six-shooters at Sequalteplan; Pvt. John Powers (Co E, Second Texas), lost one six-shooter; Pvt; John Roberts (Co E, Second Texas), lost one six-shooter; Pvt. Felix Scott (Handley's Co, Second Texas), lost one six-shooter; 3rd Corporal Jacob Sessum (A.M. Truitt's Co, Second Texas), lost two six-shooters; Pvt. William H. Smith (C. Ashton's Co E, Second Texas), lost one six-shooter, $30; Pvt. Irvin Stanfield (A.M. Truitt's Co, Second Texas), lost one six-shooter, $30; 1 Lt Amos Strickland (A.M. Truitt's Co, Second Texas), two six-shooters unavoidably exploded (resigned Nov 30, 1847 at Jalapa, Mexico); Pvt. Andrew Stumpf (C. Ashton's Co E, Second Texas), lost one six-shooter; 1st Corporal James Thomas (Truitt's Co, Second Texas), lost two six-shooters, $30 each and accoutrements (died Dec 8, 1847 at Puebla, Mexico); Major Alfred M. Truitt (A.M. Truitt's Co, Second Texas), lost two six-shooters in skirmish with guerillas, March 1847 (elected Major of the Regiment, Oct 26, 1847); Pvt. Andrew Jackson Truitt (A.M. Truitt's Co, Second Texas), lost one six-shooter at Sequalteplan; 2nd Lt Thomas F. Tucker (Truitt's Co, Second Texas), lost two six-shooters at Sequalteplan. Andrew Jackson Truitt (1819-1874) was younger brother of Major Alfred Marion Truitt (1817-1864), the regimental Quartermaster of Hays' Second Regiment, and Major Truitt was subsequently elected as Quartermaster of the 28th Texas Cavalry, C.S.A. and afterwards served as Quartermaster General for the State of Texas, 1864. The brothers Truitt and Lt. Strickland were my great-great-grandfather's nephews. The rest of Hays' command remained in Texas, and occupied the various Ranger forts on the frontier.
Below is taken from a letter written some four months after Captain Middleton Tate Johnson established his Texas Ranger Company at the fort at Marrow Bone Springs, and evidently returned to Shelby County to make preparations for moving his family to what would become Johnson?s Station in Tarrant County, and wished to buy some of John M. Bradley's cattle to take back with him, evidently intended to stock the Ranger station, for which the Fourth Congress had set aside some 320 acres of land around each Ranger station for the express use of cultivation and grazing of cattle in support of the garrison, so sixty head of cattle was not necessarily an exorbitant quantity for Johnson and his family to drive back to Tarrant County. But Bradley was likely one of the nearest ranchers the Johnson knew and had contacted about buying cattle.
While for some modern historians it would be rather hard to explain Johnson, a former Regulator leader, trying to do business with Bradley, a former Moderator leader, less than four years after the end of the conflict known as the Regulator-Moderator War, especially since Bradley's death was reported as a reason for continuing hostilities, yet, once it is understood that this was not the Captain John M. Bradley who was slain by Moorman, Captain Johnson must have explicitly trusted this John M. Bradley (former sheriff of Shelby County, 1838-41) well enough to have sent his young 12-year-old son to hand-deliver a letter 60 miles away in southern Panola County, and wait there for Bradley's reply?
Shelbyville, 17 May 1848
Mr John Bradley
Dr Sir, I Send my Son Thomas up to let you know that I have been unexpectedly detained here, by the Sicknefs of brother Berryman and that I am still willing to buy you cattle according to the offer I made you. And will take any number that you can get ready not exceeding 60 in all, but I want all the old large Steers that can be found. And I have not be particulars a bout the number of cows & calves, So that I can get a few that is gentle and good for milk. If you Still wish to let me have the cattle, go to gathering as Soon as possible and let my little boy know what you determine to do.
Respectfuly yours,
M.T. Johnson
In verifying that the letter was indeed by Middleton Tate Johnson, a comparison of the signature, "M.T. Johnson" to another specimen from a receipt when Johnson served in the Ninth Congress, dated January 1845, leaves little doubt as to the authenticity of this letter. But clearly, of any man living at that time, we can rest assured that Middleton Tate Johnson, a former Regulator, would have known whether Captain John M. Bradley was slain in 1844, and Captain Johnson almost certainly would not have written such a letter to a ghost, much less sent his young son on this task.
Bradley's step-sons Wade Hampton Choate (1826-1849) and his brother Stokeley B. Choate (1832-1848) had each served in Colonel John Coffee Hays' 1st Regiment of Texas Mounted Volunteers (USV), with Stokeley serving in Captain Isaac Ferguson?s Company (Co. I), mustered in June 1847, latterly commanded by Lt. Ephraim M. Daggett, while Wade serving in Captain Gabriel M. Armstrong?s Company (Co. G), and was subsequently mustered out near Veracruz, Mexico, on May 1, 1848. Both Wade and Stokely lost horses at sea in transport from Brazos Santiago to Veracruz, and Wade also had a commutation for clothing. Included in his estate papers is a receipt, dated at New Orleans, on 18 May when Wade spent some $40 on clothes. It was Major Alford Marion Truitt (1817-1864), who served as Hays' adjutant, and was who bought the two government horse claims out of the "Guardian Sale" held on 10 January 1852. Truitt's brother, Andrew J. Truitt (1819-1874) married 1849 to Elizabeth Johnson (1833-1928), a daughter of Allen H. Johnson (1795-1845), of Shelby County, an elder brother to former Texas Congressman Alvey R. Johnson (1803-1862). A.R. Johnson was the 'de bonis non' (second) administrator on the estates of the deceased Christopher "Kit" Choate (1776-1834), his widow, Elizabeth (McFadden) Choate Bradley (1792-1847), her second husband John M. Bradley (1794-1849) formerly of Georgia, and her son, Wade H. Choate (1826-1849) who had been the first administrator; all of Shelby County, Texas.
Another of Truitt's brothers, Captain Levi Marion Truitt (1827-1905) was son-in-law to Elijah Morris (1791-1865) , who was the father-in-law to Dr. Robert Burns (1813-1855) of Logansport, Louisiana, the man who killed Charles Watt Moorman (1816-1850). Burns' step-son, Dr. Jacob Smith (1833-1882) married in 1851 to Ellenor L. Johnson (1834-1874), eldest daughter of A.R. Johnson, and a sister to Benjamin Milam Johnson (1838-1915), my great-grandfather. I have only been working with these family papers for 30 years.
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Snakeeater, I see now that you have "more than one dog in this fight." Fascinating stuff to research.
It would appear that my GGGF, while Capt. Samuel Highsmith's Company, would have seen considerable action against the Waco Indians among other tasks of frontier defense, according the TSHA handbook:
https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/fhi11
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Some folks have a problem with CAS Shooters using more than one gun. The argument being that a Cowboy couldn't afford more than one gun. Well, not everyone was a Cowboy and some Cowboys did better than others.
I invite you to post documentation showing that some folks did carry more than one gun. Here's an example I ran across the other night:
"According to the custom of the time in that country, every man was armed with a good rifle, and a pair of Colt's revolvers. Although cap and ball, these were powerful arms...." - From 'Indian Fight At Battle Flat' by Jack McPhee, Frontier Times May1967
This fight took place in 1864 in Arizona.
This topic has gone all over the place. I thought I would go to the original post to set the stage for my response:
I just finished A Tenderfoot in Tombstone, by George Whitwell Parsons. It's hard to nail down just what his profession was; but I'll call him a mining speculator. He worked as a miner, visited many mines and investigated their potential. While roaming the territory around Tombstone Arizona in the early 1880s it was best to be armed. On page 184 he writes; "Saturday, October 8, 1881...Ought to have had a rifle, but had two revolvers, one in a holster and one in a pocket..."
Although this book is a rather tedious read, there are some real material culture nuggets in it. He actually inventories his arms. Where most journals may mention "my rifle," Parsons lists his by make, model, caliber and even serial number. He owned 2 rifles, (both Winchesters), and 4 pistols (a Colt and 3 Smith & Wessons).
Books
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Books, are we guessing the Colt was an SAA or one of the percussion belt guns, and the Smiths fulfilled the "pocket pistol" function? did he further describe the Smiths?
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Books, are we guessing the Colt was an SAA or one of the percussion belt guns, and the Smiths fulfilled the "pocket pistol" function? did he further describe the Smiths?
The Colt was a SSA in .44-40, matching his 1873 Winchester. The S&Ws were a DA .44, a DA .38 and a No. 1 (.22).
The other Winchester was a 1876 carbine in .45-60.
Besides the detailed inventory; what I found interesting was the fact that he actually wrote of carrying 2 pistols. And on another occasion, 2 pistols and a rifle. A photo shows him with the Colt in a holster, the (.38) S&W in the belt, the 1876, two cartridge belts and a knife.
Books
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Here is the Fly's Studio photo of G.W. Parsons.
Books
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Fabulous portrait. Thanks for sharing, Books.
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In 1878 John Chisum, who was a free-grazer, greatly downsized; which left the Pecos Valley from Roswell, N.M. to Ft, Sumner empty. As the crow flies, there is around 75 miles of Pecos River frontage plus spring fed creeks running into the river. Upon the completion of the Northern Pecos Valley township surveys in the very late 70s and early 80s, wealthy speculators moved into the area and began filing 160 acre homestead claims that were on the creeks, or the river, and buying out local Hispanics that were on their new 160 acre homesteads......establishing open range ranches. The big rush came in 1884.
It didn't take very many homestead claims in order to claim grazing rights for 25 or 30 miles.
By far, the two largest ranches that were established in the area were J.J. Cox's -V Ranch, which was probably established in 1883 and they ran their cattle on the west side of the Pecos River. Cass Land and Cattle Company ( 7HL) was established in Missouri in 1883 and in 1884 they filed and bought numerous 160 acre holdings up and down the Pecos and built their hdq. on the east side of the river about two miles south of Cox's hdq. The river would split most 160 acre surveys so by verbal agreement, one grazed the east side and the other the west side.
And they weren't the only ones. In 1883, John Shaw established his X-X ranch about 2 miles North of the -V hdq. In 1884, the government sold the old Bosque Redondo Indian Reservation (12,000 remaining acres) with its headquarters being old Ft. Sumner to a conglomerate from Colorado. They divided this up into 4 ranches, began acquiring tracts down river and drove in 30 to 40,000 cows by 1885.
The area Indians were no longer a threat, in fact they were no longer even in the area. This area had been untouched by the Lincoln County War, even though it was Lincoln County. Billy the Kid & Co. had either been killed or had been driven out and the era of what I call "modern ranching" had begun. (Even though it was still open range and would be for another 50 years.) Consequently, the 7HL's didn't allow their men to carry a gun daily.
In 1884 the White brothers of McLennan County, Texas ran out of grass and decided to establish a ranch below Ft. Sumner on the west side of the river. They legally filed on property as did their cowboys and also bought out local Hispanics. They established a range of about 20 miles of Pecos River frontage and by 1885 had brought in 2252 head including the calves. Of course, their range over-laid others such as the -V's, 7HL's, YY's, X-X and the Ft. Sumner outfits, as did the latter ranches over-lay each other.
The White's were poorly received by all. George Peacock was the -V's foreman and it is documented that George and his men were a pretty rough bunch, carried guns and harassed sheep herders. Their aim was to run the White outfit out of the country. The first year the White's were shunned, black balled from participating in the brandings and no doubt, their cattle were harassed.
The next year it rained good and grew lots of grass and the Ft. Sumner and 7HL outfits decided that the White's weren't such bad hombres after all and they were allowed to bring their wagon to the brandings. The -V's though didn't relent.
On the 17th of October 1886 during the fall works, George Peacock and Jim White, while horseback outside of a held up herd, argued over the ownership of a dogie calf.
White was heard to say, " Peacock, if you cut out one more of my calves, I'll kill you"
Peacock reached behind himself and Jim White pulled his 45 Colt and shot him 6 times knocking him off of his horse. White then pulled a "smaller gun", thought to be a Smith and Wesson, and shot him three more times for good measure.
Some thought Peacock was reaching for his pistol and others thought he was in the process of reaching for the cantle in order to lean back in the saddle.
In any case, White immediately fled and J.J. Cox put up a $1500.00 reward for his apprehension. White was never apprehended, becoming one of the mysteries of the west.
In reading the various documentation, there is no doubt the White's and their hands had been mercilessly bullied and Jim White had reached the breaking point. Six in the cylinder and a "smaller pistol" probably carried in a chap pocket proves that to me.
Billy
Sources:
1. Jack Potter, “NINE POWDER MARKS ON A DUCKING VEST”, TRUE WEST, October 1977, page 22
Jack Potter, manager of the New England Livestock Company that was headquartered at Ft. Sumner, personal friend of Robert E. White in the story, later a rancher, legislator and author was there the day Peacock was shot down. His article about the shooting that was published in Frontier Times was heavily edited and embellished by his editor to the point of having glaring errors to anyone that knew anything about the area. In this version they were branding calves.
2. W.C Urton, PIONEER RANCHER GIVES GRAPHIC ACCOUNT OF EARLY DAY ROUNDUP ON THE OLD PECOS, THE NEW MEXICO STOCKMAN, June 1949, Pages 49 & 52
W.C. Urton’s father, W. G. Urton was one of the founding members of the 7HL ranch and lived on the ranch with his family from 1884 – 1900. He managed the ranch from the spring of 1886 into early 1900. There is no evidence that W. G. Urton was present but his brother George Urton was there as a representative of the 7HL ranch and of course would have given a full report. W.C. Urton later mentioned the story in the above article without naming names. He did not say if they were branding or cutting cattle.
3. Lon Reed, PIONEER TELLS OF EARLY DAYS, CLOVIS NEWS JOURNAL, Clovis, N.M., May 29, 1938
Lon Reed (1863-1940) came to the area in 1884 with the White herd and never left and was interviewed by the paper. This I have not been able to obtain but Don McAlavy cited it in his biography of Lon Reed in:
4. Don McAlavy, EASTERN NEW MEXICO HIGH PLAINS HISTORY, page 37. Until I can obtain a copy of the journal, I will cite this source. Reed’s version says that “Peacock cut out a maverick”.
5. Rose White, THE KILLING OF GEORGE PEACOCK, NEW MEXICO FOLKLORE RECORD, Vol. III, Albuquerque, 1948-1949, page Unk.
Rose White was Robert White’s wife and Robert was a son of Robert E. White, brother of Jim in the story. Robert E. White was there. The White’s were good friends of the Potter’s and the Urton’s and Rose White interviewed W.C. Urton a number of times and saved her correspondence with Jack Potter. She published her research in the above article.
6. Mary Ruth Burns, KILLING ON THE PECOS, 22 page manuscript archived at the Southeast New Mexico Historical Society Archives, Roswell, New Mexico
Mary “Ruth” Burns is a daughter of Robert and Rose White. She has continued research on the subject and wrote the above article. Her Potter references show that they were cutting a herd.
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Nice write up Bill.
I agree with your assessment and conclusion. Several things stand out to me. A side arm is not a handy tool working cows in general or in a rodear branding. Too much going on in a small space and lots of hands, so no need in a rodear.
Loading six was a known issue, specially on horse back where a discharge of a primer is much more likely from an unintentionally bump on the hammer. Having quick access to a back up gun? That for me clearly paints the picture and likely intent of the day from early on.
Seems White had a belly full of Peacock. Peacock failed to recognize the fact. Grabbing at a cantle while turning in the saddle during a horse back conversation isn't uncommon. Opportune time to start throwing lead though as turning in the saddle is not the most advantageous position to start a fight from.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qU66-4y6GrA/XkQ2ax3Aa2I/AAAAAAAAxpE/Uhuv9OOcnwkl69G8-PMLRrMtDVRBeJZEACNcBGAsYHQ/s1600/DSC00627%2B%25283%2529.JPG)
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You are certainly right. Plus, carrying a pistol at a branding simply leads to a gun full of dirt.
"Too much going on in a small space and lots of hands, so no need in a rodear."
You will remember a number of years ago there were a few budding western photographers that traveled the west and published some fine coffee table books. I saw that and said, "You can do that easy" and bought a good 35 mm camera and lenses. Boy did I get a quick education. Even though I'm the boss here, I found out real quick that if I dropped my guard to take a picture, a cow would run off, or something. Nothing like heading a cow with a camera hanging around your neck and holding onto it with one hand. Or, I was simply in the way, getting a good shot. And there is no bigger sin than that. So, my career as a cowboy photographer didn't last too long due to the reasons you mention.
Billy
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Billy you made me chuckle. As you know only the boss could get away with that chit :)
And you likely noticed my photo was in a corral branding, not a rodear. Rodear is rather genteel to watch compared to the typical, all the neighbors come, chit show, corral branding. You are either working or watching at either. Heaven forbid if you are suppose to be working and aint. No more extra help for you when the time comes and no invites back to "help". :o
More I think about what you wrote Billy, it was a kill'in planned for that sort'in.
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Yahoody,
I went back to edit my note and add a "Thank you" for the compliment but I saw you had already replied. So, thank you.
I wrote another reply but just as I was going for the send button, the electricity went off and there she went.....
At the hazard of sounding like an old hard boiled has been, the "rodear" appears to be long gone in these parts. It appears to me that everyone today wants to chase their cattle into the corral and then get in there horse-back and try and work them. Several reasons for that I believe. Very, very few want to live horseback anymore. Horses have been replaced by the hated 4 wheeler. (none on this place) And brand new ranch owners and week end help simply don't have the skills of the men of yesterday. I was taught to always work your cattle outside and then take what you needed to brand (or what ever) to the corral. Only twice I've ran outside brandings but the neighbors were mighty uncomfortable.
When I was younger I knew most everybody within a 50 mile radius. Today the ranches have traded so many times that I only know (or have met) 50% of our joining neighbors.
Several years ago I started writing a history of the ranch here that was established in 1884. (A book) Most are not aware that all of the pre-statehood lands in the west (excluding Texas, Spanish Land Grants and property deeded to the rail-roads by the government) were federal lands and absolutely could not be legally fenced until the Taylor Grazing Act of 1934. (Glidden's barb wire patent - 1874) I quickly ran into early land patents on the place and had no idea who those people were. So, my project quickly morphed into a study of the Northern Pecos Valley.
Like most places, a tremendous amount of history has been lost, mostly due to the fact that most ranches don't live very long. As it is now, so was it then. People buy and sell, come and go. Drought and cattle markets ruin people. A lot of my individual ranch chapters are pretty dry because nothing remains but land records filed in the courthouses. In 1880 the census enumerator enumerated no one between Ft. Sumner and Roswell. Did he even enter the area? Was there anyone here? The 1890 census, which would have been so helpful is lost. But, it hasn't been a complete strikeout. J.J. Cox's -V ranch had been almost totally lost and I uncovered a lot on him. John Shaw who had the X-X ranch was a great uncle and I have his records and brands. R.L. Moss, a gGrandfather was a foreman for the 7HLs. I have ordered all of their Land Entry's from NARA and most of those are gold. So, so far I have written about 180 pages covering 16 early ranches. I need to get back to work on it.
My family were great friends with the Urton's (7HL) and I remember W.C. Urton showing Dad Peacock's 1876 Winchester rifle. I have no idea what happened to his pistol. The rifle is now in a private collection in Texas. The only things shown on George Peacock's probate were his 160 acres, 40 head of cows and a saddle. Evidently his homestead was the -V headquarters and his house was one room, jackal construction. Sergio Leone would have even balked at that.
(J.J. Cox was a retired rail-road contractor and lived fancy in Las Vegas)
As to the two gun man. I think he is mostly myth. I have a fairly good size western library and I have noticed that in the books that were written by the actual players, (cow men or cowboys) guns simply aren't mentioned that often. I recall one story (it would take for ever to find it) of a puncher who went up the trail carrying an old cap and ball and by the time he got to Montana, his pistol was so rusty that it was froze up.
I'll attach the cover. I think our old hdq. Is a pretty cool picture.
Billy
Well, I see the cover didn't go. Too big I guess and I don't see any way of re attaching it. Email me & I'll send it to you.
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Hey Billy,
You photo does show up with a down load. Some good history there. Thank you for taking the time to rewrite everything. We agree on the 2 gun thing for sure and guns in general I do believe. My family has some interesting history as well. Actual physically recorded oral history from my GGfather who was born in 1860 and grew up in Missouri and later IT before eventually homesteading in OK, Texas and Colo.
Tough time and as you say...ranches come and go quickly. Always have. I look at old family homesteads that are now housing developments. And across our valley today that use to be all ranches and range land. Now it is new housing developments mixed in with old weather corrals and some barb wire and rail down and falling apart. Irrigation ditches that went in during the 1890s, still used in the 1980s, got filled in and paved over.
I'm in southern Idaho and there is still cattle occasionally worked in a rodear. Some still in California and Nevada that I know of as well. ot common by any means. But most owners want doctoring and branding done quick, everything fast. Some good research being done on how much less stress is on the cows and calves when you rodear though which is slowly getting through. Just have to have the cowboys with the skills to get it done and a patient man running the show.
Folks still get excited about a branding pen. 4 wheels and a squeeze chute likely just as common, we just don't see or hear about it. Just another day's work for that crew.
But I am not telling you anything new.
My homage to the family...our two brands going back to the 1890s.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rYVARH4CbV8/WwcKm4l2ZQI/AAAAAAAAuEU/oARLQspCSCIEsAz7NYGeEc0FOR7V6xUiwCLcBGAs/s1600/DSC09142.JPG)
Working the horses and mucking this afternoon got me thinking of that shooting. Lot of speculation on what happened on my part all based on having 6 rounds loaded in White's shooter. Have to wonder where that info came from and how trusty it was? Court inquest? That extra loaded round tells me a lot if it happened that way. If he unloaded 5 and then the belly gun not so much. 5 from a Colt and a full load from his back up sounds more like he just wanted the job done and not coming back to haunt him :) But just having a back up gun still tells me the man likely went to work that day "unsettled".
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Yahoody,
A lady in the Lincoln County Courthouse looked for Inquest papers for me. All she could find were Peacock's probate. I need to go over there and do some digging myself.
The 9 shots came from Jack Potter's article in Frontier Times as did the type of pistols. Jack was definitely there.
Here is a short bio. and other info: https://books.google.com/books?id=tGF7rLtabvEC&pg=PT181&lpg=PT181&dq=Jack+Potter+NM&source=bl&ots=586x_0_BZP&sig=ACfU3U05gx7ujfkSGPLSrYgYqcmY8953Ig&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj90Zuqyc3nAhUOO60KHT3RAkg4ChDoATAPegQIChAB#v=onepage&q=Jack%20Potter%20NM&f=false
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/4145452/jack_m_potter/
https://www.amazon.com/LEAD-STEER-OTHER-TALES-Signed/dp/B002JN77BG
As I said, his editor really messed up the location and one hopes that was all. I'd be willing to bet that I have ridden over the very spot that the shooting occurred but I have no proof of where it did actually occur.
If I interpet the story correctly, Jack was bringing down his wagon and crew from Ft. Sumner. So, he would have been on the old Military trail between Ft. Sumner & Ft. Stanton, which crossed the Conejo Creek very near to where the White's had their hdq. The White's and crew joined him and they turned east down the draw where they thought they would find the -V and 7HL camped. The problem arose was when they found them, they weren't only camped, but had throwed a herd together and were either sorting the cattle or branding them. In this country, the range rule was the mavericks belonged to the man whose range they were on. Peacock and White both claimed that range.
What I find odd about the story is Cox evidently had made some kind of deal with the Peacock brothers (George & William) to use their adjoining "homesteads" on the Pecos for his sole base in order to bring in....lets say 1000 cows. Not until the White's arrived did he lift a finger and acquire other legal waterings. So, in essence, he was a free grazer until his hand was forced. (William worked for Cox at Las Vegas. Exactly what he did, I don't know. I want to really research the Courthouse in Las Vegas as the migration into this area was mostly through there) (Original county, est. 1852. Railroad 1879)
After the killin', J.J. Cox was so afraid of being ambushed by White that once he returned to Las Vegas, he bought an 86 Winchester. (Jim White wasted no time returning to Texas and then disappeared) Today we have all these old guns and say, "If they could only talk". :)
In 1887 John Shaw became a partner with the 7HLs by contributing his cattle & property. (Waterings all the way to Roswell) In 1889 J.J. Cox died of Dropsy in Las Vegas and his widow sold the -V holdings to the 7HL. The 7HL's scrapped that brand and started using the -V. My gGrandfather was put in charge of everything west of the River. Their furthest west camp was where I now live. The Pecos is about 30 miles to the east.
I tell people, "Just ride up to that cow and see how close you can get to her before she moves away from you. When she moves, you have stressed her enough to move". Then they'll pen a whole bunch of them in a 50' wide pen, get in there with their horses and wonder why they go crazy. :'(
I ride through our weaners and get them gentle. But as you know, it doesn't take much to later ruin one.
Beautiful pistol. I believe I have seen some of your other pistols on the Colt Forum?
I have a cousin that has engraved guns for a number of years. (like 50) I bought a 3rd generation blued 45 in the 80s, carried it daily and once it looked horrible he talked me out of it, engraved it and put the ranch brands on it, (X-X & 7 Rocker), had it reblued and gave it back to me. Like a dummy, I went back to carrying it and knocked some of the blue off it before I wised up. Anyway, it isn't even near in the class of yours but since it is branded, I'll leave it to my son. :)
Yes, I believe Peacock's number was up. It was just a matter of time until he ran into Jim White.
Billy
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I like the stories, keep 'um coming :)