Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L

CAS TOPICS => The Darksider's Den => Topic started by: Mako on April 02, 2024, 07:41:34 PM

Title: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Mako on April 02, 2024, 07:41:34 PM
Crow Choker was right, it is awfully dead in here.

So we have 4 choices:
So which is it?

~Mako
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Sir Charles deMouton-Black on April 02, 2024, 09:44:35 PM
Mostly 2. And 3.!  Where have you been,Pard.Since 2011?
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: hellgate on April 02, 2024, 10:54:00 PM
It's mostly #4. I'm running low on caps and have been forced to use suppository shooters (pistols that load from the rear) for my CAS matches instead of my perCUSSIN' pistols.
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Mako on April 02, 2024, 11:33:02 PM
Quote from: Sir Charles deMouton-Black on April 02, 2024, 09:44:35 PM
Mostly 2. And 3.!  Where have you been,Pard.Since 2011?
Helping those that helped us, and unfortunately it's still not over.

Figured by now y'all would have sumthin to talk about.  I have been hearing more and more about this new fangled stuff that uses a nitric acid derived base to push boolits down the bore.  Seems wrong to me...maybe that's where all the boys have gone, they've lost their love of the Holy Black.  They've lost their way, been beguiled by the siren song of 19th, nay 20th century technology!  Believe it or not there are guns that actually reload themselves now, self loaders they call them.  I've seen them with my own eyes, terrible they were.

Surely, everything hasn't been solved.  Has nothing been a topic of interest?

~Mako
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Professor Marvel on April 03, 2024, 04:58:34 AM
Quote from: Mako on April 02, 2024, 11:33:02 PM
Helping those that helped us, and unfortunately it's still not over.

Figured by now y'all would have sumthin to talk about.  I have been hearing more and more about this new fangled stuff that uses a nitric acid derived base to push boolits down the bore.  Seems wrong to me...maybe that's where all the boys have gone, they've lost their love of the Holy Black.  They've lost their way, been beguiled by the siren song of 19th, nay 20th century technology!  Believe it or not there are guns that actually reload themselves now, self loaders they call them.  I've seen them with my own eyes, terrible they were.

Surely, everything hasn't been solved.  Has nothing been a topic of interest?

~Mako

Nitric Acid!?!?
In MY bore !?!?
Heaven forfend!

I imagine, but cannot prove, that the lack of posting is due to a number of lamentable issues,
Some of which you have enumerated….

Allow me to babble further:

1) lack of resources….
 The various conflagrations around our sphere lead to primer and cartridge shortages
Then powder shortages 5en primers and percussion caps (again) then the Great Pandemic
Which is still mutating and mak8ng folks sick….

I myself was about to resort to my secret fallback: a stash of about 10,000 plastic toy caps from germany,
Which , whilst corrosive, do contain enough juice to reliabley ignite 3f in my revolvers, as long as one seats them fully and carefully with a dowel….

2) lack of shooting venues…. Well, see above. Those who are fortunate and resourceful enough to arrange their own range are better off than most…. I myself have reverted to shooting a 1911 CO2 blowback bb gun and an 1873 SA CO2 revolver in my garage, using rigid foam in heavy cardboard boxes which allow for easily resettable targets and collection of BBs for reuse, as well as keeping the muscle memory going.

Prior to primers becoming unobtainium, I have also manufactured Hot Glue Bullet Cartridges, by drilling out case primer holes and using (at the time ) available LP primers. Allowed use of any revolver, short range ~ 10 yards, but quite accurate. Until 5e primers disappeared. Thes are like wax bullets, no powder.

Since shotshell primer are still available, I have been experimenting with those. I found that those are so powerful they will accurately shoot a  well lubed .30 cal rifle bullet, no powder, to 20 yards accurately, and stick said bullet in a 2x4.

Howver I did not expect to have much discussion over such topics.

3) we are (mostly) all getting old and/or sick and/or fambly memembers suffering suchly.
I myself have been expending most of my waking moments assisting Mrs Marvel ( She Who Must Be Obeyed )
In her efforts to continue her journey through this portion of the Wheel Of Dharma, re: horspital excursions, knee replacemnts, pamonia, caract surgicalness, partial toothless… oh and my Dad just died mid march. Not unexpected, at 97 he went out on his own terms!

Soooo people been busy with the Karmic Wheel Of Fortune around here.

Yhs
Prof mumbles

PS I  currently have 2 Big  Lube molds in .45 but am actually interested in a mold that would shoot well
Out of an a percussion .36 Colt …

Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Froogal on April 03, 2024, 08:11:25 AM
Just setting here, waiting on better weather to arrive. 4 NEW targets are built, just waiting to be broken in, and I have 200 rounds of 44-40 loaded with the good stuff, and also some 45 colts with similar loads. The wind has been so strong lately that ALL of the black smoke would blow away before I have a chance to really appreciate it.
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Dave T on April 03, 2024, 09:10:56 AM
I'm getting so old and broken it hurts to reload, shoot, then clean the guns and brass. No one wants to hear about that. And because of all that crap I'm not shooting my BP cartridge guns much if at all. So, nothing to post but hot wind, which I've done enough of over the years I've been here.

Suspect there are quite a few in the same leaky boat (canoe) as myself,
Dave
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Galloway on April 03, 2024, 09:49:19 AM
My shooting has slowed down because of parents buying kids atvs and the new outdoor lifestyle marketing. They can venture deeper into the american desert than i ever got and around every corner is a group of 5 to 10 people mag dumping an AR. The animals have left and its just not the woods bumming playground its always been for me.
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Kent Shootwell on April 03, 2024, 10:32:03 AM
I found this site after starting shooting CAS a while. I got into the sport to enjoy the Wild West fantasy that began in childhood. As we got into it I added spurs, chaps, pocket watch and such. Guns and leather stayed true to my idea of cowboys of old and gunfights that you had to win. It wasn’t long before the sport changed to light springs, short strokes and cartridges that made less sound than some of my body functions! The targets got larger and closer and boring. The romance was gone but the interest in it remains. This site had a lot of information about the guns and accessories with a bit of history. Mako’s posts added a lot of data along with some others. I was never interested in competition for the sake of competition, it was the old western fantasy that holds my heart.
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Abilene on April 03, 2024, 02:15:12 PM
Howdy Mako, long time no see!  I think all the reasons you mentioned are part of it.  I'm still shooting almost every weekend.  With the closer and bigger targets, it is a different kind of fun, but still fun for me.  I went from shooting mostly BP to more smokeless than BP, but now that my mom has passed and I will have some more time, I'll be shooting the smoky stuff more often.

There seems to be plenty of components now, except for percussion caps.  Seems the type that fits everybody's custom nipples are not available.  Doesn't bother me, though, I'm a cartridge guy.  Dick Dastardly seems to have retired his biglube mold business, and Springfield Slim retired from casting them, but there's a guy - I forget his alias - on the SASS Wire who has started casting some of those.  My longest barrels are 20" so I don't really need the additional lube.

There are a number of new people shooting in the BP categories these days, but the big majority of them are using APP, for a number of reasons.  Because it is so easy, with any bullets, they do not have to do the research on loading components and techniques, and don't really care about the historical aspects (I'm speaking in generalities here), so not much to discuss really.

Hey, I don't think you ever saw these videos from 2008(?).  When I started putting videos on youtube a couple years ago, starting with some converted from vhs, I sent you a message through this site, but don't know if you ever got it.  Cap'n'ball gunfighter, gotta respect that!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rg9MocuPQ3k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MU1iqOLfCM
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Mako on April 03, 2024, 02:30:13 PM
Oh no, that just reminds me of how fat and out of shape I was!  I literally weigh 50 pounds less than that now.  Lighter than my prime, and less muscle mass, but still mean.  I can even wear my uniform from 30 years ago again for the Birthday Ball and look good.  I had to get back into fighting trim and it still isn't enough to hump it up and down the mountains for days at a time.  I need to leave that to the younger men.  It's hard to admit but it's true.

~Mako
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Mako on April 03, 2024, 03:08:16 PM
Professor,
I can’t help with all of your travails but I can perhaps help with your search for a suitable bullet for your .36 caliber percussion revolver.  I’m assuming it is still in a loose powder configuration?

I guess it has been a long time now but at one time (15 years ago) Dick and others were discussing a .36 caliber bullet similar to the EPP-UG 150gr bullet for the .44 caliber cap and ball revolvers.  I sketched one up and sent it to him (it might actually be somewhere here on the forum).  I haven’t shot my navy models or Leech and Rigdons for quite some time now.  I got burned at a match when a bank of falling plates wouldn’t fall when hit with a standard 80gr round ball. The plates were supposed to be calibrated to a wimpy .38spl load, but they weren’t…

I actually designed this one back in 2009 and we talked about it on the forum:

 https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=25330.0 (https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=25330.0)

It ended up with a smaller grease groove to make sure there was enough of the rebated portion to fit all of the goofy iterations of Navy pattern (.36 cal) that are out there. Perfect example of getting a Camel from a committee trying to design a horse.

Look at Attachment #1 below:
You can tell the bullet was actually meant to be a .380 diameter because the groove depth is .320 (0.03 per side, the max Tom will cut)

Now look at Attachment #2 below:
This is the revision I wanted, note the height is a bit more and the groove is longer for more lube, but it will sit a bit higher and not go under some barrel extensions when rotated.  This is from March of 2009.  The catalog item is (rev 2.3+something other), it got confusing and we got our camel.

But…it works and beats most of the gamer .38spl loadings when loaded with a charge allowing the bullet to be seated 1/16th below the front of the chamber.  I apologize, but I can’t remember the charge for my revolvers (they are all Uberti).  It’s not a lot of powder but it booms and smokes.

You can order this today, it’s the catalog number 38-135C (make sure you get your dropped diameter right).  With soft lead you can size it easily down to .375, or less if you have tighter cylinder chambers from a Ø.380 cast bullet.  I don’t size, the chamfer lead in on the bottom just shears off a couple of rings.  You can actually get the body diameter about any diameter you want, you just request it at order, but be aware the groove depth will never be deeper than 0.03”.

No leading, doesn’t foul and pleasant to shoot.

OR…if you are interested in a .36 caliber EPP-UG scaled down bullet look at Attachment #3 below.

There are several more choices with heeled bases now on his site.  15 years ago there weren’t any.  I think these two are you best choices.  I noticed someone even decided to modify the 38-135C design and make it a short 100gr bullet.  Well, to each his own… However the heavy 135gr seems to be the most popular by his order numbers.

One last question though, which of the .45 Big Lube molds do you have?

~Mako
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Mako on April 03, 2024, 03:28:43 PM
For those of you looking for a EPP-UG mold for your .44s

There is also a copy of the EPP-UG bullet for the .44 Cap & Ball revolvers but specify what heel diameter you actually need.  I guess someone wanted an EPP-UG and couldn’t get one. Look at Attachment #1 below.

Look at Attachment #2 Below:
I have 3 pairs of ’60 reproductions and an original.  I grabbed one and tried some pin gages.  It wasn’t until I got to Ø.487 that the chambers would accept a pin. You could not easily start a bullet.  The diameter would be better at Ø.445.

This isn’t the only mold in his catalog of this type, there is another one which has a heeled rebate of  Ø.450.  There is no practical difference between the two otherwise.

You could ask for the rebate to be reduced to the size (less a few thousandths) you measure on your chambers.  Tom has thoughtfully included the heel diameter in his order information.  So for me I would order a body diameter of Ø.454 +.002/-.000 and a heel diameter of Ø.445 +.000/-.002.  He actually has it set up to accommodate your needs.

~Mako
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Baltimore Ed on April 03, 2024, 04:23:00 PM
Between the cold and wet and ECSASS cancelling shoots whats there to yak about. Quiet everywhere. A lot of gun forums are slow these days. I’ve started on a 1917a1 dummy gas gun. Been accumulating parts for a while but finally decided to spend some of my son’s inheritance and jump in the deep end. I would have loved to invest in a 1917a1 semi but I can buy propane easier than large rifle primers. And no reloading. Going to try to use as much real deal parts as I can afford without any internals or actual sn’ed atf stuff. Just a 1917a1 top cover with a complete sight will run 850.00 [only one that I found]. The carriage was very pricey. Feel free to move this to the Wild Bunch forum. Didn’t realize I had wandered into the Holy Black.
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Navy Six on April 03, 2024, 04:37:37 PM
That Accurate Molds 38-135-C is the bullet I've been using for several years now at Cowboy Matches. In my 36 Navies it provides enough knock down on steel targets that I no longer worry about it. I use about 19 grs. of 3F Swiss and it gets the job done.
As far as some observations about SASS shoots, I don't worry about some of the gamer stuff. For me it is 1869-1875 and I equip myself suitably, whether cap & ball or early black powder cartridge. I am actually doing more shooting/experimenting now than ever and it isn't getting old for me. I guess it helps that I show up for a shoot looking for the buffalo herd and that damn Bill Hickok who owes me 50 bucks!
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Mako on April 03, 2024, 05:27:28 PM
Quote from: Navy Six on April 03, 2024, 04:37:37 PM
That Accurate Molds 38-135-C is the bullet I've been using for several years now at Cowboy Matches. In my 36 Navies it provides enough knock down on steel targets that I no longer worry about it. I use about 19 grs. of 3F Swiss and it gets the job done.
As far as some observations about SASS shoots, I don't worry about some of the gamer stuff. For me it is 1869-1875 and I equip myself suitably, whether cap & ball or early black powder cartridge. I am actually doing more shooting/experimenting now than ever and it isn't getting old for me. I guess it helps that I show up for a shoot looking for the buffalo herd and that damn Bill Hickok who owes me 50 bucks!
Well good, I'm glad to meet someone who is using it.  I guess I have mold #1.  Which mold material did you get and how many cavities, also what mold size (the physical block size)? 

Tom has more selections for features and options now than he did 15 years ago.  I'd like to talk to someone who is using the brass mold, mine is a 2 cavity aluminum, I wish I had a 4 cavity, but since it was the first one he wanted to make a "pilot production run" with a 2 cavity.  Also we originally didn't have the choice of heel diameters.  Mine is like the drawing at Ø.357, what heel rebate did you order (or was that even an option when you ordered it)?

I hadn't looked at his site in years or that particular mold so you can catch me up on things.  I talked to him last week, I'm working on a .38 spl mold to replace the Snakebite Grease Wagon we can't get any more, but we never talked about the other molds.  However, I am trying to talk him into making .44 and .45 molds to replace the Mav Dutchman and the PRS .45 but I want the deeper 0.05" grooves.  I'm still working on convincing him e just needs a different extension for his cutting bit and use the same holder (he may have to have the extension made).  He limits things to 0.03" groove depth but I pointed out he had the room if he did .38s and .32s he had extra room for his tool holder with the .45 and .44 molds.

On the Grease Wagon replacement, he's already "approved" it I'm just waiting on a link and an assigned catalog number to order it.

I posted about the "new" Grease Wagon style mold over on the Powder Room board. I was doing a simple interweb search when I ran across a post for someone looking for a an original Grease Wagon Mold.  I sort of backed into the forums again because I am looking for molds now that my source for my .38 and .44 BP boolits is gone.

~Mako
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: DeaconKC on April 04, 2024, 09:46:45 AM
Hello Mako, nice to make your acquaintance. I am just getting ready to try BP [subs, sorry] with going Gunfighter this year. Hope my  45s like it as much as my Unique loads.
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Mako on April 04, 2024, 11:14:31 AM
DeaconKC,
Kansas City?

Which substitute are you going to use?  And, are you planning on using the same bullet with the smokeless powder lube?  Maybe we can make your little venture into less than a "adventure" with some hints.

We all understand real Gunpowder isn't always available to everyone, so don't fret.  But anyone here will tell you that true BP is less of a hassle and actually easier to clean up and usually less of a rust problem.  I think Pyrodex is probably the worst offender.  I still have a partial can from 1975, I may never use it again.  I mean this literally...my BP guns clean easier that any smokeless powder firearm I own.  The bores are bright and shiny after a simple pass through with Moose Milk and a soft bore brush or Bore Snake if I am lazy.

Best to you. (Come to the Dark Side...we have cookies.)

~Mako
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Navy Six on April 04, 2024, 05:29:34 PM
Mako, on the 38-135-C I ordered the five cavity aluminum mold. Since my Uberti cylinder chambers are slightly tapered (.372 mouth tapering to .366) I start with a .375 sizing die then hit the bottom band with a .370. This seals real good and loads easy. I left the heel diameter at .357 as it drops in the chamber easy. It also seats deep enough initially that it clears the loading port near the rammer on the 1851s no problem. The 1861s have a little more room in that area. I also use Tom's 38-120-C  heel bullet but since it is a bit taller I like going with the 135-C as it allows a bit more powder in the Navy cylinder.
I've ordered Accurate Molds black powder version for all my Cowboy calibers and love being able to custom order sizes and configurations. All of them beautifully finished. This is important to me as I do a lot of bullet casting. The last one I placed an order on Friday and it arrived the following Tuesday!!
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Mako on April 04, 2024, 08:45:03 PM
Navy Six,
Thank you.

Do you have any problem with the 5 cavity filling out?  I have a 147gr 9mm 5 cavity aluminum mold from him and it takes me while to get wrinkle free and pretty bullets.  It really doesn't matter as much since I am powder coating them, but I'm almost borderline OCD and wrinkled bullets don't sit well with me.  They are also grooveless which I think adds to the heating  problem (plus that long bearing surface shows any imperfection).

I have no doubt a Uberti Navy of any type (like yours) doesn't have any trouble clearing the rammer or the opening.  That's what all of mine are, I have two '51s, two '61s and a pair of Leech & Rigdon revolvers.  The guys who were reporting loading area problems when we were polling everyone back in '09 had Brass framed frankenpistols of dubious origin.  I didn't believe one guy until he sent me a picture with a caliper showing me the gap distance.  Your revolvers would have cleared the original design with the wider groove (more lube).

I'm sorry you have that taper.  Some people report that and unfortunately the Ubertis appear to have it more than the Pietas or even the Armi San Marcos.  I like the grip shape and finish of the Ubertis better but they almost all suffer from short arbors and too many have tapered chambers.  Do you ever have the bullets move forward from recoil (kind of laughable in a .36 C&B)?  More common with balls than bullets with more bearing surface.

It sounds like your revolver(s) are good candidates for a chamber reamer.  Do you have one revolver or two? You only need to do the first 0.50 Inches. If you have 2 then ream them both the same and 0.001 inches larger than what you have as your largest diameter to get a fresh clean surface. With your reported Ø.372 measurement I would ream it to Ø.373.

Almost all production reamed chambers will ream tapered (except through bores).  .002 is acceptable, .006 is a bit excessive.  I do have a question for you though.  When you say you have taper, do you mean taper or a stepped chamber?  Almost all Percussion revolver cylinders are stepped, this includes the originals.  You don't need more than 1/2 inch to be true and with very little taper. 

I guess I lied, I actually have a few more questions:

Look at Attachment #1 below, that is one of my '61 cylinders I just grabbed.  Those gauge pins are Ø.371 for the one sticking out further and Ø.364 fro the deeper one.  The deeper one goes almost all of the way to the bottom of the second stepped hole.  You can't go further unless you use a smaller pin because you are in the area of the rough finish from the end of a blind reamer pocket.  The larger pin is sticking 0.504" down into the chamber.  The last pin I'm not showing but it is a Ø.373 pin and just fits inside the bore, so I call that a .002" total taper for 0.504"  That is good for an Italian Percussion revolver.

Look at Attachment #2, that is actually a model of a '60 cylinder but the .36 calibers are the same, just smaller in diameter.  Notice how it has the smaller stepped diameter that is Ø.4409 and I actually reamed my 2 sets of '60s to Ø.4505 measured diameter with a Ø.4500 reamer.  I was running them 0.7 deep and the 6 chambers on one cylinder averaged  0.0706".  I wanted to show you the step, it's not always obvious when looking down the chamber.

I also think you are going to more trouble than you need to.  You said you first size Ø.375 (what is your "as dropped" size?), then size just the bottom to Ø.370.  I'm curious how you size just the bottom and get it back out of the sizing die without tearing the bullet up.  You can only go part way and it will be stuck pretty good with a swaging of .005".

Have you tried just seating the lubed bullet with your bullet seater?  No sizing, just use them as molded.  The design was made to shear off two rings.  I'm not sure if you actually have taper (or should I say a full taper of .006"), it is probably less. You should determine if you are measuring the step diameter and calling it taper.

So Consider this:
That is running it close.  When you reported 19gr I actually thought "he's a better man than I".  I actually load off of the revolver with a loading stand and I think I can get a 3/32th below the face with 16gr (powder starts out a bit over 1/2" below) and I always want a safety margin with a loose powder revolver in case I get bullet movement.  If you truly do have tapered chambers that is more of an issue because bullets back out and will lock you up.(ask me how I know...)

~Mako
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Crow Choker on April 04, 2024, 10:31:00 PM
All right CAD drawings and descriptive this and that----Haven't been able to read everything thoroughly but will tomorrow morning. Welcome back Mako, I've been singing praises of your old post that's in the Dark Arts about nipples and caps relationship's alot, esp on another forum where alot of the shooters of cap revolvers needed the education. Great thread!!!!! Reference your thread title, I've been thinking WOW, a month has gone by on the Darkside without any posting, time to repost another thread "It's Pretty Dead Here"! Glad you beat me to it. FWIW, as far as me and my 'old timey' guns, they still get good ol black powder and Remington #10 caps. Stocked up when the getting was good and price was good. CC
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: DeaconKC on April 05, 2024, 10:45:20 AM
Hiya Mako, nope not Kansas City, it's my initials [Kevin Collier].
As to your observations, I have laid in some APP and am planning on using it with my usual 200 grain RNFP [coated] from Bustin' Head Lead. It shoots well in all 6 of my .45 guns under a charge of 7.5 grains of Unique, so hopefully it will behave with the APP.
I do have some actual BP which is being hoarded for my actual pre 1900 Smith & Wessons, to protect them.
Gonna set up a new turret on my Dillon 550 for the APP just cause I don't want to mess with the other that runs perfectly for my smokeless .45 loads.
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Mako on April 05, 2024, 03:59:16 PM
Deacon,
You can shoot BP lubed bullets with our lower velocity pistol loads with "smokiless powder" and they do fine.  Especially if you have a Big Lube bullet or a larger groove variety.  Unfortunately, I'm not sure who sells BP lubed bullets anymore.   I know people use the Desperado Cowboy Bullets

https://cowboybullets.com/45-cal-200-grain_p_24.html (https://cowboybullets.com/45-cal-200-grain_p_24.html)

I know one pardner buys then "unlubed" and then pan lubes them.   Others have told me they work fine with BP with the lube they come with.  I have no experience with them.

On your Dillon you can get a quick change adapter for your powder measure and just switch it.  I wouldn't run real powder through a Dillon Measure but I have a Brass Hornady Black Powder Lock-N-Load measure on my Dillon 650 with a quick change to allow me to go between my .44 caliber and .38 caliber heads.  I posted a picture below.  I load all of my BP pistol and rifle loads on a Dillon XL-650 Progressive and my BP shoptshells on a MEC 600 Jr MkV (but I hand drop the powder that is why I use the 600 instead of a progressive shotshell press)

I just looked for a picture of the Black Powder measure and I think they may have discontinued them!  This is ridiculous I leave home for two years and the world falls apart!

It doesn't show up very well and that is a smokeless powder Lock-N-Load on the left but I posted it to show the mechanism that makes it "automatic" and to show that die on the bottom.  I have two of those dies and two mouth expanders I just loosen a screw for the arm, unhook the spring and move the measure.

Well look at the Lee Through Powder Die for your set up.  You could hand hold a measure above it ( I have done that with an RCBS "Little Dandy" measure, I looked and whew!!! they still make those and not priced bad, but you have to buy individual rotors, I have a box full)  Just dip your Real BP.  I'm not sure what to tell you about a substitute in a mechanical measure.  Someone else chime in here.  What does APP say about that?

You should be able to use the exact same set up on all of your dies on you RL550 (except your charging station), your just changing powders .  Yo can remove your measure (simple to do and leave the screw in portion in) and stick a funnel on thee and drop your charge of APP.  I can't remember it's been 20 years since I had a 550, does the charging station also bell the case mouth?  Hmmm, I'll bet someone makes an accessory to allow you to use that expanding die and still drop through a charge.  I'll look (you have enough to worry about).  Actually don't worry it is easier than it sounds.

~Mako
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: DeaconKC on April 05, 2024, 05:22:38 PM
Yup Mako, I have used the Lee Powder Through dies on my 550 for years with Lee Powder Pro with the discs. And looks like they will work with APP. And yup, I forgot to mention thanks for reminding folks of the joys of Pyrodex [I hate that stuff]. We have some carbide .45 Colt dies coming in from an Estate that I am grabbing, it's worth the dollars just to keep things simple, as I already have the Lee hopper and a toolhead standing by.
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Froogal on April 06, 2024, 07:45:25 AM
For what it's worth, I cast all of my bullets for .38 special, .45 Colt, and 44-40. I lube all of them with SPG lube, and it works just fine for both smokeless and black powder.
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Mako on April 06, 2024, 08:48:20 AM
Quote from: Froogal on April 06, 2024, 07:45:25 AM
For what it's worth, I cast all of my bullets for .38 special, .45 Colt, and 44-40. I lube all of them with SPG lube, and it works just fine for both smokeless and black powder.

Froogal,
I think I'm going to be soon "polling" or asking everyone about Mold designs we need to have resurrected for BP bullets.  I already have one in the works with Accurate Molds for the .38, and  I'm working on him (Tom) about deeper grooves for .38-40s (Ø.40) through .45s.  So far no luck on grooves deeper than .03", I may have to offer paying for tooling to allow him to extend .02" deeper.  I am hoping if we get enough interest (sales for him) that he would either amortize to cost and only charge a very limited NRE or credit me back at some point with Molds in the future.

 In the meantime what molds are you currently casting with and if they aren't specifically bullets designed for Gun Powder are you satisfied with the amount of lube you can get into the grooves?

~Mako
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Coffinmaker on April 06, 2024, 10:28:00 AM

 :) AH HA  :o

So it's MAKO's fault!!  I posted this elsewhere also, forgot where, but:  Some Lustrum back I was beset with Blind, Deaf and Dumb spotters at CAS matches.  Seems they were collectively unable to tell when .36 Ball hit a steel target.  Seems they couldn't see the hit nor hear the impact.  Since I shoot a snazzy pair of Capt. Schaffer '51 replicants in .36, was some irritating.  Went looking for a .36 solution.  Turns the solution was the EPP UG - 36.  I helped finance the acquisition of the mold and bought the first several thousand examples.  NIRVANA indeed.  Turns out, the bullet can be blamed on MAKO (Huzzah) and Dirty Dick Dastardly!!  The other neat thing about the APP UG - 36, carries a boat load of lube for shooting Gun Powder yes it does.

The EPP UG - 36 drops at about 90Gr "as-cast" and the result is a nice manly 38ish KLANG on target also with a visible lead splash, and super accurate.  Unfortunately, my "go-to" bullet guy has retired.  Glad I originally sourced a pile.

Now for those Doubting Thomases, I are the Poster Kid for that funny stuff made from recycled orange peels.  APP.  Yep, that stuff.  That weird 20th Century Substitute for real Gun Powder.  It works a TREAT!!  Ok, it doesn't produce the "flash" of Gun Powder, nor does it smell the same as Gun Powder.  Butt, and However, NO LUBE required.  None.  Nix.  Nada.  ZERO.  Makes its own lube and the fouling is NOT cumulative.  Removes the fouling of the previous round each time it's fired and is easy clean up. (SO THERE Perfesser).  So I can, without reservation, suggest MAKO give the stuff a try.  Oh, Three F will meter thru a DILLON, Two F will not.  And also, APP works quite well for those new fangled self contained suppository thingies too.  Burma Shave   
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Navy Six on April 06, 2024, 12:05:19 PM
Mako I just typed this reply but somehow it disappeared. Sorry if it shows up twice. Anyway, thank you for your response and I'll try to answer your questions/comments.
* I have no problems filling out the mold. I'm using pure lead--well, from an X-ray lab-- that particular batch I melted, fluxed and cleaned and poured into ingots before doing it again during the casting session. I run the pot at about 850* I am also pretty OCD and any flaws get rejected for re-melt.
* So far I've never seen any forward movement of the bullet during recoil. When I first experimented with 38-135-C I checked each round by examining the cylinder face after one round was fired. I stopped doing that when I detected nothing amiss. After several years of Match use I've never had a problem.
*The cylinder chambers don't appear to have a pronounced step. I just ran a scribe lightly down a bunch of Uberti chambers--circa 2010 and later although two were dated 1999-- and the cylinder walls were smooth. I got my measurements using pin gauges. Most were pretty consistent at .372(one .373) at chamber mouth. The bottom of all chambers took a .366 pin but not a .367.
*I considered chamber reaming in the past but I would feel compelled to do it to all of them to keep things consistent. My problem is cap & ball revolvers (especially Navies not sure how many)seem to grow around here. After the .36s were done I would have to start on the .44s. Since I do have extra cylinders in both calibers for Uberti Navies and Armies I guess having one pair each would be a good idea.
* As far as the powder charge of 19 grs Swiss, they were weighed charges on an electronic scale. When using paper cartridges I back off to 18 grs, again weighed to account for the paper. At first I thought this was too much powder as seating of 38-135-C was a little difficult. That was when using a straight .375 sizing die. When I used a .370 die on the bottom driving band seating was much easier and deeper. Because I like doing these things I also tried just "kissing" the bottom band with a .363 die after the other two operations were done. I actually like this the best so I guess I'm creating my own tapered heel bullet. I don't consider this too much work as the bullet now seats easily and is still accurate and as stated, knocks down any targets easily. I've even tried it at 75 yards on the so called "Hickok" shot and can usually get 3 or 4 out of six on a steel plate. But after reflection I am curious just how far my loads seat below the chamber mouth and will load one up and measure.
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Froogal on April 06, 2024, 03:55:59 PM
Quote from: Mako on April 06, 2024, 08:48:20 AM
Froogal,
I think I'm going to be soon "polling" or asking everyone about Mold designs we need to have resurrected for BP bullets.  I already have one in the works with Accurate Molds for the .38, and  I'm working on him (Tom) about deeper grooves for .38-40s (Ø.40) through .45s.  So far no luck on grooves deeper than .03", I may have to offer paying for tooling to allow him to extend .02" deeper.  I am hoping if we get enough interest (sales for him) that he would either amortize to cost and only charge a very limited NRE or credit me back at some point with Molds in the future.

 In the meantime what molds are you currently casting with and if they aren't specifically bullets designed for Gun Powder are you satisfied with the amount of lube you can get into the grooves?

~Mako

At this point, ALL of my molds are the LEE 2 cavity. Nothing special about any of them, and other than .45 Colt with black powder in my rifle, I have NO trouble with fouling or leading. (To be honest, I have not yet shot any of my 44-40 loads).
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Mako on April 07, 2024, 03:49:37 PM
Froogal,
Thanks!

Which molds specifically, I'm trying to determine what people are using?  What I really care about is groove size, how much lube can the bullet hold?

Also what kind of lube do you use?

I'm not searching for a bullets or lube, I know what works for me, I am trying to figure as a whole what everybody else uses because the sources for true Black Powder Bullets is drying up.

~Mako
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Froogal on April 08, 2024, 08:53:47 AM
Quote from: Mako on April 07, 2024, 03:49:37 PM
Froogal,
Thanks!

Which molds specifically, I'm trying to determine what people are using?  What I really care about is groove size, how much lube can the bullet hold?

Also what kind of lube do you use?

I'm not searching for a bullets or lube, I know what works for me, I am trying to figure as a whole what everybody else uses because the sources for true Black Powder Bullets is drying up.

~Mako

I will take an inventory of my molds and get back to you. I am using SPG lube and an RCBS lube/sizer.
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Navy Six on April 08, 2024, 11:03:15 AM
OK Mako, I just had to measure how far the 38-135-C seated over a weighed charge of 19 grs 3F Swiss in a Uberti Navy 36 cylinder. It came out to .053 below the cylinder mouth. Just to clarify, I used Dick Rhody's Tower of Power to seat it initially like I do the night before a Cowboy Shoot. The rest of the Match I load paper cartridges with 17/18 grs 3F Swiss for convenience at the loading table. The paper carts are created without a projectile (just a paper "tube")as I can then use whatever projectile the job calls for. Before I started sizing each bullet as previously describe I was not able to utilize as much powder, so will continue my sizing routine. Either way, I've never had a problem with bullet creep and certainly no problem with knock down targets at the two Clubs I shoot at. So if you designed 38-135-C I owe you a bit of thanks and Tom for making it available.
BTW, I can't remember if I answered you question about the heel size. I left it at .357.
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Froogal on April 08, 2024, 12:21:07 PM
Quote from: Froogal on April 08, 2024, 08:53:47 AM
I will take an inventory of my molds and get back to you. I am using SPG lube and an RCBS lube/sizer.

OKAY! Here are the molds that I am using. All of them are LEE 2 cavity.

429-200 RF   2 lube grooves.  ( haven't fired any of these yet)

452-200 RF. (standard for my .45 Colt)

452-228 1R  2 lube grooves. (haven't fired any of these yet)

358-125 RF

358-158 RF
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Mako on April 08, 2024, 03:04:36 PM
Quote from: Navy Six on April 08, 2024, 11:03:15 AM
OK Mako, I just had to measure how far the 38-135-C seated over a weighed charge of 19 grs 3F Swiss in a Uberti Navy 36 cylinder. It came out to .053 below the cylinder mouth. Just to clarify, I used Dick Rhody's Tower of Power to seat it initially like I do the night before a Cowboy Shoot. The rest of the Match I load paper cartridges with 17/18 grs 3F Swiss for convenience at the loading table. The paper carts are created without a projectile (just a paper "tube")as I can then use whatever projectile the job calls for. Before I started sizing each bullet as previously describe I was not able to utilize as much powder, so will continue my sizing routine. Either way, I've never had a problem with bullet creep and certainly no problem with knock down targets at the two Clubs I shoot at. So if you designed 38-135-C I owe you a bit of thanks and Tom for making it available.
BTW, I can't remember if I answered you question about the heel size. I left it at .357.

Thanks!
It makes sense that you were using an off pistol loader, otherwise that would be a heavy press on that 1851 bullet seater. The "dragoon/and 1851 style" lever doesn't have the leverage the "creeping" lever the 1860 and 1861 (plus some smaller frame variants) do. 

I've seen bent 1851 levers.  I rarely use the onboard bullet seater, I have a different style loader than Dick's but I get consistent seating and more importantly I get to inspect and remove any debris after every stage since I remove the cylinders.  Abilene can attest to the fact I have rarely had issues during a match, if I do they are always cap pieces that have dropped into the hammer area which I can clear.  I haven't gone to Manhattan Conversions or even the cap pins in all of these years but I have tried filling up the notch on the hammer and that does help.

I can load faster and more safely with the loader because people (usually new people observing) sometimes want to talk to me and watch while I charge the cylinders.  For me it's easier to get distracted when trying to hold the revolver, control the muzzle and keep track of everything while loading (even with a stand I tried).  With the Loader I can stop at literally any point and immediately get back to where I was because you can see exactly what has been put in the chambers.  I use Bees Wax/Mutton Tallow wads over powder for balls and you have it even easier with only having to track power and bullets.

However I have had periods where I was trying to come up with a better way of making sure I capped the correct chambers without looking down the front of the pistol at the loading table. I tried removing one cone from each cylinder so I wouldn't put a cap on a chamber without a charge (ask me why... I'll bet you already know)  Then I charged the one without a cone once and that went bust, plus I had power dribbling out the threaded hole.  Sometimes you can be "too smart" for your own good.  So I just went back to being careful and being more disciplined.  I use a white metal marker "crayon" now and mark the cone on the empty chamber each time before I reassemble the pistol and that works well and allows me to rotate through all 6 (unless we have 5 stages) chambers per match.

~Mako

Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Coffinmaker on April 08, 2024, 03:42:01 PM

 :) AH HA  ;)

Gentelmen (using the term loosely of course  ::) )  Just a little tid bit.  I also load "off the gun" with DD's Tower of Power.  I have acquired a supply of little bright ORANGE or RED plastic like thread protectors.  I slice them to make little rings to put over the nipple for the chamber I wish to skip for CAS play.  Then when loading, I place a ball over that chamber whilst charging, then move that ball for seating.  Then after re-assembly mucho easier to see the "empty" to rest the hammer.  I only remove the little rings for cleaning the Cylinder.  I also like the advantage of being able to wipe the cylinder face and barrel breach after each stage.  I have also equipped my Tower of Power with a travel stop so the Ball/Bullet seats to exactly the same depth EVERY time.  SHAZAM!!
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Coffinmaker on April 08, 2024, 04:08:06 PM

 :) Memory of a Gnat  ;)

I also forgot to include, when I still had my Shingle out, one of my specialties was to equip My Cap Guns and my Customer's Cap Guns with a "Cap Rake" or "Pin" as MAKO calls them.  I have always felt for ultimate reliability (I shoot Gunfighter) a mechanical device to prevent caps/fragments from entering the hammer channel was necessary.  A "Cap Rake" works a TREAT you betcha.  Burma Shave
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Mako on April 08, 2024, 05:19:38 PM
I shoot Gunfighter too, always have. Self promoting Frontier Gunfighter #1.  At least now you and I can technically be classified as Frontier Cartridge Gunfighters even wth loose powder pistols, no longer do we have to have our names soiled by mingling them with those fancy dud wearing bunny phart shooting smokiless .38 cartridge shooters.  I still always sign in at matches as Frontier Gunfighter for the class.  It used to be before they made the GFC class the only time I was legitimate was at the State BP cowboy matches, but actually shooting against Frontier cartridge Gunfighters like I do now.

Oh wait...the Perfesser revealed you also admit to shooting bunny phart loads.  But I guess they still have that sulfur smell and do make a whole lot more noise, so okay...

I also have stops for my loader, not for accuracy, but to make sure I really have the projectile seated firmly. And I have to feel that slight "crunch".

Don't you shoot Piettas?

~Mako
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Navy Six on April 08, 2024, 06:16:07 PM
Boy Mako, you are really trying to get me started. Anyway concerning which chambers to load--I like using white hair curling paper for my paper cartridges and as mentioned I load them without a projectile. So, when I drop one in a chamber just slightly below flush it is looking back at me with that bright white paper. No way I can mistake which chambers to load a projectile in even if for some reason(too often) you are distracted at the loading table.
With those darn cap fragments and Open top Colts-- right now I'm working on a long term project with mainspring strength. I have a few 51/60/61's that still do that occasionally after Slix-Shot nipples, Rem. # 10 caps, polished internals, polished hammer faces, corrected timing and arbor correction. These also have the current Uberti light springs or similar weight Wolf. When I installed a pair of 1999 era Uberti  heavier mainspring ( standard Cattleman) on  a pair of squareback Navies, the cap problems have stopped, at least for the last 300 rounds. These springs are not that much heavier, certainly not stopping me from cocking with one hand. Since I blame hotter caps and light mainsprings for a lot of cap problems, I will not install a cap rake/Manhattan device--yet. I don't like chopping up the guns when the simple installation of another mainspring will correct most of the problems(of course after each gun receives the above attention) . So my intention is determine what weight spring is the lightest necessary for general use without sacrificing reliability. Of course I understand 100% reliability may not be possible with a Colt, but I have reports of cap rakes failing at times too.
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Mako on April 09, 2024, 12:09:04 AM
Navy Six,
The light mainsprings will kill your reliability.  You get hammer bounce from the back pressure.  Standard cones are the worst. I use Tresso cones, but the Slix will probably minimize it as well or perhaps better.  I never liked the way the cross holes "explode" the caps.  The Tressos are Aluminum Bronze (tough and corrosion free) and have a very small flash hole which minimizes blow back through the cone when the hammer is holding the cap in place.  I wrote something about that quite a bit back.

 I blew it a few years ago, I had access to a micro laser welder and I could have welded up all of the faces on all of my Colt's pattern revolver faces.  I don't know why I didn't do it. I don't want a non precision welder to do the face and I'm not at the level I need to do a fine TIG weld.  I need someone who does work like welding up and repairing gates and vents on plastic injection molds.  Those guys are so good they don't even upset the color on things like hammers.

Laser welders have gotten more common now, the one we had was to weld Ø.015 wire in place where it exited a Ø.016 hole drilled through a .Ø.04 stainless steel ball.  A true micro welder.  I have a fabricator now who is buying a Laser for sheet metal work, I actually talked to him just a couple of weeks ago about trying it after he gets some experience with the machine.  I have one spare hammer I'm going to let him try first.  I will still have to mill or surface grind the face after welding.

I actually have heavier than normal mainsprings in my match guns.  Harder to cock though.  But they still don't stop the cap sucking you sometimes get when cocking.

~Mako
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Mako on April 15, 2024, 11:19:32 PM
Sure is a lot more conversation in this forum now.  I was tired of talking to the voices in my head, they kept winning the arguments...

~Mako
Title: Re: It's pretty dead in here...Maybe it's time for some zombies.
Post by: Coffinmaker on April 16, 2024, 08:48:07 AM

 :) Oh for Pete's Sake  ;)

What a revelation to hear I ain't the only one.  I absolutely hate it when I lose an argument wid myself.  So dam'd demeaning.  And:

YES!!  I do shoot Pietta's.  When I had my Shingle out, I just plain began to really dislike Uberti Cap Guns.  I wasn't much happier with Uberti Open Tops but "that" is another thread entirely.  Anyway, I found Uberti to be a complete PITA to set up to run well for CAS.  Don't get me wrong, Pietta were/are not dead simple, but I like 'em better.

Everything I did was for maximum reliability.  As a self proclaimed, dedicated, determined and card carrying GAMER, my guns just had to be reliable.  There is a laundry list of changes I made/make, which include the switch to Slix nipples and lighter springs (speed dontcha know).  In the long run, matters not whatcha do, there is going to be the occasional train wreck with Cap Guns.  Nature of the beaste.  After all, nothing is perfect and MURPHY is always lurking just around the corner.

If not including a mechanical method to prevent caps/frags in the hammer channel, welding cup the face of the hammer is a necessity, then polish it like a mirror.  Not perfect, but better than nothing at all.

I would like to include, what we forget in today's world, when Cap Guns were KING, the caps in use were quite different.  More robust.  REQUIRING heavy Main Springs just for ignition.  Many folks seek to be able to run an entire match without a bit of attention to their horse pistols.  We must remember, a RELOAD in the age of Percussion was sure death.  The accepted percussion "reload" was to grab another fully charged gun.  Ergo, shooting with an "off the gun" reloading stand is perfectly acceptable.  Wiping the Cylinder Face, Barrel Breach and Arbor between stages insures a gun running just a smooth at the 10th stage as at the first.  Along with that I have also become a proponent of tight Barrel to Cylinder gaps (nother thread??)