Rapine Mold

[Tres Dedos]

I have a Rapine .430210 Hollow Base mold.

Regarding a future cartridge conversion revolver project, What's this mold useful for?

P.S. Not for sale.

[hawkeye2]

.44-40, .44 Special

[Pettifogger]

The 430210 was designed for the .44 Colt.  It has a long nose so would be to long for a .44-40 to cycle through a rifle.  Should work in any straight cased pistol round.  .44 Russian, .44 Colt, .44 Special.  I was going to try and email you a copy of the Rapine mold data that shows the cross sections of the bullets.  You don't allow emails on your preferences page, so can't send it.

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[Tres Dedos]

PETTIFOGGER - When I figure out how to change my e-mail setting I'll contact you.  THANK YOU.

ALL - Is this bullet suitable for an 1860 (Unerti or Pietta) DIY conversion with a factory barrel?  Too large?  Too small?  Just right?

[Professor Marvel]

PETTIFOGGER - When I figure out how to change my e-mail setting I'll contact you.  THANK YOU.

ALL - Is this bullet suitable for an 1860 (Unerti or Pietta) DIY conversion with a factory barrel?  Too large?  Too small?  Just right?

Greetings My Dear Dedos -

If you mean a standard  C&B 1860 Army Colt copy, I fear the barrels on those prefer the .451 to .452 or .454 bullet. As our good Pettifogger mentioned, The correct .44 Open tops in .44 Colt would take the bullet form your mold.

the so-called .44 C&B percusion revovlers actually have what we would consider a .45 barrel (usually .451-.452 but some go as large as .454)  whilst the so-called .36's have a nominally .375 barrel.

Thus the Home Brew Do it Yourselfer  is faced with converting a .44 C&B to a .45 cartridge, or relining the barrel to the correct  ~ .429 or using heel-based bullets .45 bullets in  .44 brass and performing the "bored through chamber" .

I do hope I haven't muddled you up any worserer than you were before 

yhs
prof marvel

[Tres Dedos]

PROFESSOR – Everything is muddy to a greenhorn.  But your comments have caused me to stop (and think) and the water appears to be slowly clearing.  So permit me to continue my inquiry following your DIY points.

1.  Converting a .44 C&B to .45 cartridges is why there are companies that sell conversion kits.

2.  Relining the Barrel.  Going to my trusty Brownells catalog, I find a Redman Centerfire Barrel Liner in .44-40 (#770-100-440AE) and a Barrel Liner Drill also for a .44-40 (#361-000-003AE).  As the liner is .428 groove diameter, it is slightly smaller than my bullet at .430.  This deference is so that the bullet can engage the grooves.  The barrel line drills out the old grooves so that the liner can be shoved into the hole left.  All the finishing stuff is discussed in a free book from Brownells (#077-200-143AE).  I don’t have an 1860 in front of me, but it does not seem likely that there would be much left (outside diameter) of the barrel after boring it out.  This all sounds very simple, but I am quite sure the execution is a bit more daring.

3.  Heeled bullets from what I can tell would require a different mold.

And then you sneak in “bore through the chamber”.  At this point I started walking through the mud hole again.

How am I doing so far?

[Pettifogger]

From the questions you are asking you are getting in way over your head.  No one makes a true .44 Colt conversion cylinder.  The conversion cylinders are made so you can use readily available cases and bullets.  Bored through chambers are, again, a historical anomaly.  Early conversions simply drilled the chambers straight through and used bore sized healed bullets to fill the bore.  When manufacturers went to inside lubed bullets that fit inside the case they could no longer drill chambers straight through.  They have a reduced bullet diameter area at the front of the chamber.  Otherwise when you fired the gun the front of the chamber would be well over bore size and you would get all kinds of gas blow-by, the bullet would expand in the chamber and then have to be squeezed back down when it hit the forcing cone and be "resized" back to bore diameter.  If you want a .44 Colt, then your best bet is to buy one of the Uberti "conversions".  They already have proper chamber and bore sizes.

A good example of healed vs inside lubed and straight bore vs stepped chambers is the .22 Short or Long Rifle as this is the only remainning 19th Century designed healed bullet cartridge on the market.  The back (the heal) of the .22 bullet is designed to fit inside the case.  The front of the bullet is the same diameter as the case.  On .22 revolvers the chamber is bored straight through.  Now, if you were to "modernize" the .22 and redesign the bullet so the entire bullet was the same size as the "heal" i.e., the inside diameter of the case, you would wind up with something like a .20 caliber bullet.  To make up the difference you would have to put a step in the front of the chamber and reduce the bore size.

[Tres Dedos]

Then by deductive reasoning, The Professor is citing bore diameters of, .451, .452, .454 in a C&B 1860, therefore the chamber diameter of the that same 1860 should be the same diameter as the bore, i.e. .451, .452, .454.

Then logically the proper heeled bullet (largest) diameter would also be .451, .452, .454.

Further, the outside diameter of the cartridge case would also have to be .451, .452, .454.

How am I doing?

[Pettifogger]

You are on the right track.  The part of the healed bullet in front of the case would be bore diameter and the OD of the case would also be at or near bore size.  It would look like a giant .22 short.  The Rapine bullet mold you originally asked about is a dual purpose bullet.  It is .430 so will fit inside a case in the standard modern configuration.  It is also hollow based so it will expand to fit a .451"+ bore.  I don't know anyone that makes a .44 Colt cylinder for a C&B conversion.  They use a standard .45 Schofiield or .45 Colt chamber so the bullets are the correct size for the bore.  Uberti makes .44 Colt "conversions" but has sized the bore to a standard .429 .44 bullet.  Go here and look at the .44 Colt (modern loading) the .44 Special and the .45 Colt.  You can see that if you load a healed bullet in a .44 it will be a .45 caliber bullet.

http://stevespages.com/page8d.htm

[Mako]

Tres Dedos,
Let me put into illustration what Pettifogger was so right about...

The heeled bullet looks like this, this one is a big lube groove design I have been working on for the .44 Colt.


When loaded it will look like this, notice the bullet diameter is close to the O.D. of the case.


I bought a Clymer reamer with the dimensions shown below, it is cut for the inside the case bullets and doesn't cut the correct chamber for a true heeled bullet.



This is the chamber design I came up with below:



The area shown in green is the tapered section and the section in yellow is the original chamber bore.  

The reamer ends up being a simple taper reamer that opens up the rear 1.225" of the chamber once it is bored through.  The taper gives me a Ø.452 diameter .01" beyond the maximum length of the case which should accept any cartridge I load myself.  The SAAMI dimension for a .44 Colt is Ø.456 at the base, so .Ø.458 should accept fresh brass and any of my reloads.

Basically your chambers end up looking like this:







Regards,
Mako

[Pettifogger]

As always, absolutely spectacular drawings.  My ruler and crayola drawings just don't compare.  Scroll down and there are some photos of original .44 Colt cartridges.  It needs to be remembered that original .44 Colt cartridges were .45s by modern measurement standards.  Original 1860 Army cap and ball guns were also .45s by using the modern standard of measuring bores.  Modern .44 Colt cartridges are true .44s.  (If you can call a .429 bullet a .44.  Again, historical irregularities.)

http://www.oldammo.com/march04.htm

[The Pathfinder]

Mako, is that bullet design going to be commercially available, or is it a custom job for you? I have an old Gren conversion 1860 that uses the heeled bullet and it looks like just the ticket for getting it going again. With the Rapine heel bullet mold the nose sticks out of the end of the cylinder unless I cut back the brass (even 44 russian).

[Professor Marvel]

Thank you Mako & Pettifogger for the illustrations, edification, and clarification of the topic!

yhs
prof marvel

[Mako]

Pathfinder,
The bullet is available right now if you want to order it from Accurate Molds.     www.accuratemolds.com

 Just email Tom and tell him you would like him to make mold for you.  All of his tools are made individually on CNC equipment so there are a few limits to the shape which I have addressed with this modified version just for you. His email is:
tom@accuratemolds.com  if you just want to order one use their online ordering system and attach a copy of the drawing.  If he has any issues just have him contact me.

Ellsworth Rapine retired in 2010 so I don't know if you can even get the Rapine Mold version of a .44 Colt anymore unless you find a used one.  Here's a trio of bullets Hoof Hearted posted a few years ago:



Bernie can also make you molds but he makes a cherry to cut the cavitiies, so if you want a unique one you will be charged for the tooling.  Tom at Accurate will make a single cavity Aluminum mold for as little as $72 ($107 for iron) or $85 for a three holer.  He also makes them in brass.

I had actually been looking at a better chamber design for a longer ogive .44 Colt bullet.  The bullet ends up being longer because of the bigger lube groove and you need a bit more free bore before the throat:



So the new bullets and cartridges look like this:



And here is your drawing:



It will work in standard Colt's dimension conversions, if you plan on using it in an after market cylinder then you need to ask the maximum cartridge length they will accept.  The original max OAL was 1.50", this one ends up a bit longer at 1.57".  So if a gunsmith was making it from scratch using an original Colt's, a 2nd Gen, Uberti, Armi San Marco, Pietta or a Belgian Centaure it should work fine.

You will need a crimping die from Bernie at Old West Moulds, it is a modified Lee Factory Crimp Die that uses the collet feature to reach over the bullet and just crimp the case right behind the bullet.  You can lubricate the bullet after its been seated. There are adapters for lubrisizers that just introduce the bullet into the lube chamber.  You could also pan lube if you suspend them in a block with holes in them .  If you lubricate them through a sizer before loading you will need to clean the heel off first.  There are a host of ways you can do it.
 
Have fun,
Mako

[The Pathfinder]

Mako, thank you, sir. I'll get in touch with Bernie. At 1.57" with this particular gun I may still have length issues but we"ll just have to try and see what we get. I already have the Rapine 451210 mold and an acceptable mold from NEI, but I like the idea of the big lube bullets for black powder and had not seen an offering for the 44 Colt heel before. I also have one of Rapine's 44 Colt cylinders for an 1858 Remington, but bought it from someone else and haven't quite got the geometry of the long firing pin worked out yet. Too many projects, too little time. Thanks again for everything.

[Mako]

Pathefinder,

Do you mean?

• Tom at Accurate Molds  for the Mold
• Bernie at Old West Moulds for the crimping dies  

That's for the design design directly above.  If you plan on getting MOLDS from Bernie then I will give you dimensions for a better Lube Groove and Crimp Groove, plus you should attempt a group buy on the design, because Bernie will charge for the cherry he will have to make.

The advantage that Tom has is speed and no tooling charge.  The disadvantage is a minimum Ø.180 flat on the nose, maximum .03" groove depth, 35° minimum wall angle perpendicular to the axis and you need a flat in the crimping groove.  He also can't do bullets smaller than Ø.30 caliber.  His molds are beautiful and I can work around most of those requirements.  

I cheated a bit on the groove depth for the lube groove, since we want a wide one it is .035" deep.  He has done this before when the groove is wide enough to give him the clearance he needs for his inserted tooling.  He might push back on that, but based on some of his other molds I think it is doable.

By the way, what is your particular gun that you are considering?

Regards,
Mako

[The Pathfinder]

Mako, sorry screwed that up trying to get out to work this morning, Tom for the mold, Bernie for the crimper. The 1860 I have is a CVA 1860 that came with navy size grips. Found it in a little shop just outside Hollywood years ago. Back in 1990 I had John Gren convert it to 44 Colt for use with heeled bullets. with the Rapine 421210 mold the point of the bullets always stuck out of the end of the cylinder, I'll have to measure it's length when I get a chance. The only brass available at the time was cut down 44 specials or magnums with trimmed rims. I did find an NEI mold on Auction Arms for the heeled bullet with a flat nose that has worked fine for me, especially since Starline started making brass. But I like the big lube bullets, so when I saw your design I had to inquire. The Rapine conversion cylinder for the 1858 is mounted in an old Navy Arms Remington and is also for a heel bullet. I just haven't gotten around to working up a firing pin for it as yet.

[Hoof Hearted]

From the questions you are asking you are getting in way over your head.  No one makes a true .44 Colt conversion cylinder.  The conversion cylinders are made so you can use readily available cases and bullets.  Bored through chambers are, again, a historical anomaly.  Early conversions simply drilled the chambers straight through and used bore sized healed bullets to fill the bore.  When manufacturers went to inside lubed bullets that fit inside the case they could no longer drill chambers straight through.  They have a reduced bullet diameter area at the front of the chamber.  Otherwise when you fired the gun the front of the chamber would be well over bore size and you would get all kinds of gas blow-by, the bullet would expand in the chamber and then have to be squeezed back down when it hit the forcing cone and be "resized" back to bore diameter.  If you want a .44 Colt, then your best bet is to buy one of the Uberti "conversions".  They already have proper chamber and bore sizes.

A good example of healed vs inside lubed and straight bore vs stepped chambers is the .22 Short or Long Rifle as this is the only remainning 19th Century designed healed bullet cartridge on the market.  The back (the heal) of the .22 bullet is designed to fit inside the case.  The front of the bullet is the same diameter as the case.  On .22 revolvers the chamber is bored straight through.  Now, if you were to "modernize" the .22 and redesign the bullet so the entire bullet was the same size as the "heal" i.e., the inside diameter of the case, you would wind up with something like a .20 caliber bullet.  To make up the difference you would have to put a step in the front of the chamber and reduce the bore size.

Pettifogger, .32 Colt is still available as factory loaded heel base ammo also.

[Pettifogger]

Pettifogger, .32 Colt is still available as factory loaded heel base ammo also.

.32 Short Colt.