Opinions please

[Captain Barrett]

Folks,

I know this is a bit late, but it has eaten at my craw and I have to say something about this topic...

I think we know how serious folks, especially in the GAF, get concerning comstume contests and such. We GAFers show pride and do our best to make our appearance the most authentic we can. For such effort, a few of us, most notably Sergeant Drydock, have been immortalized by being recognized to win an award at a national level...

And then along comes Mule Camp 2006...

After all the ranting and raving about how costume judging is NOT a popularity contest, lo and behold, Colonel Dan wins 3rd Place Best Military for wearing his old mess dress uniform with a Jeb Stuart hat. WTF?!?!?! The powers that be at Mule Camp must have been drunk to allow such a farce to proceed. There was not a SINGLE person in attendence who had an actual uniform of the Victorian era who could have been awarded that 3rd Place finish?

For all the shooting rules enforcement, it is time to enforce costuming category rules just as ridgidly. This aforementioned happenstance made a mockery of what costume judging is SUPPOSED to be. Woe be unto the person who spent a ton of cash on an outfit and has their thunder "stolen" due to popularity...

[Books OToole]

It is easy to judge a shooting match.  Who ever puts the most bullets on the target in the shortist time wins.

When it comes to judging the best dressed you have a lot more parameters to consider.

If you are going for pretty or neat anybody can judge.(Any space cowboy can win if th judge thinks that is neat.)

If you are really going for authentic, then the judge needs to have considerable knowlege. (They have to have read more than one book.) 

It's a lot harder than the average CAS shooters thinks.

Michael "Books" Tatham
(Member of NCOWS Authenticity Committee)

[NO, NOT CLOTHING NAZI]

[Major Matt Lewis]

WTF indeed?

Captain Barrett you are way late.  Mule Camp was in May....So I really don't see the reason behind this thread.  If Colonel Dan won 3rd Place than I say Bully to him.  I won 1st Place at EOT BECAUSE OF AUTHENTICITY and was lucky to have somebody like Captian George Baylor as a judge.  Last I heard you gave up shooting and even sold your irons.  So what gives Cap?  I would hope that you aren't grinding some kind of personal axe here.....Bye the way, I have never met Colonel Dan.

Also, be aware, that I have had a belly full of negativity and stupidity on the NCOWS Board and do not want that tone or environment over on this board. 

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[Captain Barrett]

Major,

I just learned about it recently. I have not followed much of anything lately. Sorry to offend...

[Reb Tyree]

Sirs,

Having served this "Great Nation, and still in the U. S. Army Reserve, also knowing that Colonel Dan has served this Nation."  "I take offense to your rave and ranting!"   Colonel Dan is an outstanding Gentleman and an Officer!  Please retract your comments.  Thank You!

The Mess dress uniform costs as much if not more than some outfits.  Yes, I also own one.

[River City John]

I'm a little confused. Were the people participating in that military costume event representing GAF? 

[US Scout]

No reason anyone should get their skivvies caught in a wringer over this issue.

SASS "Costume" contests are not based on authenticity and you will see authentic vs Hollywood vs fantasy competing against each other.  Under those rules, Colonel Dan was appropriately attired and based on the judges' opinions, a winning entry.

In the GAF we stress authenticity in our uniform competitions, and Colonel Dan's outfit, no matter how unique, would not have been seriously considered since it was not "regulation" to the Victorian period.  However, EOT and Mule Camp are SASS events, not GAF events, so SASS rules, customs and traditions apply. 

Judging a uniform competition is difficult.  There is a vast amount of difference between services, corps, and time periods, not to mention various countries.  Enlisted uniforms will rarely shine when compared to officer uniforms, just as those of the infantry are not as colorful as those of the artillery or cavalry.  And, it extremely difficult to judge a US uniform against a Highland officer in full regalia!  Consequently, each uniform must be judged on its completeness in itself. 

And for the record, Captain Barrett is still a member of the GAF and should be accorded the same courtesy and respect we apply to all members who post on this forum.

US Scout
GAF, Commanding

[St. George]

As many of you know - NCOWS has a non-mandatory category referred to as 'Originals'.

For some - those who don't bother to absorb the concept of 'non-mandatory' - it's a bone of contention - wrongly assuming thay 'all' NCOWS members adhere to the guidelines set forth - including a small booklet that documents their outfit.

We know what 'assume' really means...

For others - it raises the level of 'aspiration' towards an authentic Impression and makes them do more research in order for them to 'create' that little documentation book as a personal challenge - but not as any sort of requirement.

In the GAF - with it's stricter guidelines on authentic gear and uniform - 'perhaps' a similar documentation booklet is in order when considering the many and varied Uniform Changes as seen during the period of the Frontier Army.

That'd be up to you - the GAF member and uniform wearer - but in some cases - notably, the SASS 'Costume Competitions' - it may give the edge, if that matters, since a Judge - presented with documentation - gives said paperwork serious weight.

One helluva lot of time, thought, research and money goes in to creating and outfitting a period-correct Impression, as many know.

Being 'rewarded' with some variety of 'recognition' at one of the big shoots could be important enough to jot down some pertinent facts...

On the other hand - also given the GAF's allowance of 'B-Movie' uniform and dress - a similar thing could be done - 'documenting' a particular outfit from a particular movie.

It'd certainly beat the sense of shock - having created 'the' classic Dress uniform of a post-1880's Cavalry Officer - spike helmet, horsehair plume  and all - to someone in a current-issue Mess Uniform and a hat.

(And like many in GAF - 'I' have one of those as well - mine features Cavalry trefoils and facings...)

Now - as US Scout mentions - a Highland Officer in full dress could be an interesting thing to judge for one who's never seen the complete outfit.

Determining whether it's being worn completely 'Regimental' is a level that'll be something to document...

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Mustang Gregg]

When the GAF was initiated in 2001, the uniform guidlines were set loosely on gettin' uniforms up to snuff "as well as you afford to".  Heck, we were NOT counting stitches & measuring insignia spacing.

Have we now become that strict?  And I freely admit I have NOT read the bylaws larely.

No need to get out the AR 670-1 just yet, I reckon.  Let's keep it fun, not work.

Mustang Gregg, Ltc
Dept of the Missouri,
Nebraska Division Cmdr.

GAF #64, SASS LTG

[Books OToole]

For some people; doing the research and doing it absolutely correct, is fun.

And it would be extremely frustrating to:

  * do the research,

  * look like you stepped out of an 1880s manual,

  * and get beat out by someone dressed like Rock Hudson in the Undefeated.

For those reasons, there should be two classes.

1)  Absolutely correct per the xxxx regulations.
&
2)  Looks just like _______ from the movie.

Otherwise; it just ain't fair.              [Johnny Depp's pirate impression will beat out an authentic protrayal every time.]

Books

[Mustang Gregg]

I don't wanna sound negative.  But It will probably sound that way here.
And I really think the better-dressed trooper ought to get the higher ranking, too.
And research IS a part of it.

Classes?
Are we talking about GAF Classes?  Or NCOWS?

I thought we were talking about a uniform competition at a past SASS shoot.

MG

[Books OToole]

Sooner or later GAF is going to have to stop being the step child of SASS &/or NCOWS.

It should be a separate orgainzation with it's own rules, by-laws, shooting classes, etc.

Until then, you all will have to live the rules that give awards to ..................

I'm not trying to be negative.  I am being positive.  GAF has the potential to be a great organization. [Instead of SASS cowboys with crossed sabres on their hats using lever action rifles that the military never used.]


Books

[US Scout]

When the GAF was initiated in 2001, the uniform guidlines were set loosely on gettin' uniforms up to snuff "as well as you afford to".  Heck, we were NOT counting stitches & measuring insignia spacing.

Have we now become that strict? 

MG-

No, we have not become that strict. 

The GAF started when several cowboy action shooters wanted to stress the military aspect of the Old West at CAS matches.  The initial membership came from within the SASS ranks - so we authorized both authentic and "Hollywood" uniforms for those who chose to wear one.  GAF policy has not changed.

However, as GAF has grown we have begun to include reenactors, skirmishers, living historians, history buffs, and others among our ranks in addition to cowboy action shooters.  In addition, our CAS membership now includes a significant portion of NCOWS members as well.  Most of these organizations, save SASS, emphasize authentic clothing, equipment and arms, which is why we have begun to see a gradual shift in that direction.  My best guess is that we went from a roughly 80% Hollywood orientation in the beginning to a roughly 60% authentic orientation at present. 

This swing is best seen at the GAF Grand Musters where those wearing uniforms, and mostly authentic uniforms at that, are in the majority.  It is a delight to see all those uniforms in one place, but we still allow non-authentic uniforms which are now most likely seen on the line instead of the banquets.

Those who opt for the "Hollywood" look are still welcome and will always be welcome as long as I am in command.  I even own a Hollywood uniform myself that I like to wear at some SASS matches, though I tend to go the authentic route more often than not.

As for Books' comment on going our own way - I see that happening as well, but we are still a young organization and finding our way.  We are not like SASS, or NCOWS, or NSSA, or any other existing organization I know of.  I saw WASA rise and die in a matter of years and I don't want to see the GAF go the same route.  We have grown from just a discussion forum to an organization that has held a number of shooting matches, and presented itself before the non-shooting public as a seriously minded historical organization.  We are exploring the use of military issue rifles in our matches - something that SASS and NCOWS have not addressed - so we may eventually get ourselves away from the lever-action rifles we are using. 

US Scout
GAF, Commanding

[Lou Graham]

I'm not especially into defending SASS but I think a little indulgence or patience might be called for.  The costume constest sort of evolved, it didn't really get onto a roll in a big way until the first SASS convention a few years back.  For much of that time, the insturctions for the contestants and judges were pretty loose.  If you "looked cool" you won.  

There have been changes that include divisions like "Military" "soiled doves" and "working cowboy" with specific things that you should/shouldn't have.  There's even some instructions for the judges now.

That said, there's still a lot of room for improvement and growth.  Finding someone qualified to judge is an issue by itself, especially in an authentic military category.  

There's also the problem of not all areas being "covered" by a category.   Throwing the movie impression uniforms in with the real ones is like comparing apples to ammo.  If that's the only category and you have judges that only know what they have seen in movies and on TV, a non-authentic uniform is most likely going to win.

That's where we of the GAF come in.  If you are going to a big match, offer to help judge.  When you wear your uniform and someone compliments it, point out some interesting thing or a bit of trivia or something.  Educate.  Explain.  Every time we wear a uniform to a match is an opportunity.  A big match is a bigger oppoortunity.  I was asked to judge at our SASS Regional and I felt completly under-qualified and said so, but did the best I could.  Thanks to you guys and the research you have led me to, I know more than I used to, but I'm still a long ways from what I would consider "knowledgeable."  
I think that is what GAF is largely about.  It's about learning.  Adding stuff.  Finding stuff.  Reading stuff.  Making stuff.  My Wild Bunch uniform is not complete, but I have a good start.  I had you guys to answer my questions and lead me to where I can find out more.  I have found a couple of new patterns for ladies clothes that are more authentic than most of what I have to work on over the winter.  We're all on the same trail, some of us are just farther down the road.  

[US Scout]

...Finding someone qualified to judge is an issue by itself, especially in an authentic military category.  

Lou,

Excellent points.  I attended Cat Ballou's seminar on costume contests at last year's SASS Convention.  She mentioned that these competions have become far more serious events than ever anticipated.  Because of this, the judging categories have kind of morphed into a broad categories that can encompass a bit of everything.  For example, they originally had working dress - which has now grown into cowboy, townie, soiled dove, military, etc. 

I talked to her about the military uniform judging - which she said they had very few knowledgeable people to judge.  Next thing I know I'm on the judging panel for the costume competition.  Cat wanted me to do EOT as well, but I was up to my eyebrows preparing to brief Congress so had to beg off. 

I'm seeing this happen in our own GAF competitions.  I've suggested that we (the GAF) may have to break down our categories into things like Infantry, Artillery, Cavalry, Staff, Marines/Navy/Revenue Service, and Foreign, or something similar.  At last year's Grand Muster we had about twenty entries (in comparison, at the SASS Convention there were four military entrants) in the dress uniform judging - and we only gave out 1 award. 

We can learn from SASS's experience.

US Scout
GAF, Commanding

[Major Matt Lewis]

Lou,

Excellent points.  I attended Cat Ballou's seminar on costume contests at last year's SASS Convention.  She mentioned that these competions have become far more serious events than ever anticipated.  Because of this, the judging categories have kind of morphed into a broad categories that can encompass a bit of everything.  For example, they originally had working dress - which has now grown into cowboy, townie, soiled dove, military, etc. 

I talked to her about the military uniform judging - which she said they had very few knowledgeable people to judge.  Next thing I know I'm on the judging panel for the costume competition.  Cat wanted me to do EOT as well, but I was up to my eyebrows preparing to brief Congress so had to beg off. 

I'm seeing this happen in our own GAF competitions.  I've suggested that we (the GAF) may have to break down our categories into things like Infantry, Artillery, Cavalry, Staff, Marines/Navy/Revenue Service, and Foreign, or something similar.  At last year's Grand Muster we had about twenty entries (in comparison, at the SASS Convention there were four military entrants) in the dress uniform judging - and we only gave out 1 award. 

We can learn from SASS's experience.

US Scout
GAF, Commanding

The only problem with reaching the point of "nervona" with your costume is the one the Captain Baylor and You ran into....It takes you out of the contest because you are judging it.   I also actually like the rule about not being able to compete at a major event with the same outfit.  It kind of shakes things up....

[Drydock]

One point missed in all this:  While Mule camp is a fairly large match, in all likelyhood there were probably only one or two really good authentic uniforms there, the rest being Hollywood.  So you make the two most authentic 1st and 2nd, then give Col. Dan the best of the rest.  I'd bet a good chunk of change this is exactly what happened.  And have no problem with that at all.

Lets not make a fuss over nothing . . .

To illustrate this, there were a lot more than 4 military costumes at the SASS convention.  But frankly, when that Confederate General and two British Officers stepped into the judging line, about a half dozen others stepped out.  They were dang intimidating I can tell ya.  Most of the rest were Hollywood, and they knew it.  Those three, and myself, were wearing Uniforms, not Costumes.  At most SASS matchs, Uniforms are still a rare thing.

[Captain Barrett]

Folks,

Now that things have cooled down a mite, I see some have seen my point somewhat. Which is fine...

As for myself, I do intend on getting back int he swing of things soon. My plate is full just now, but I have not forgetten anything
Scout is Commander. Major Lewis is CoS. I hope to be allowed to be Adjutant again one day...