Original Henry - Magazine Capacity

[Long Johns Wolf]

Howdy to the campfire. Having studied some literature about my favorite rifle that you load on Sunday and shoot all week, I find confusing information about the number of Henry rounds you can load into the magazine tube. Depending on the source I find between 14 and 17 rounds. Now this is somewhat puzzling and I have 2 questions for those in the know:
1. What did the factory officially state regarding magazine capacity, and
2. How many rounds could you actually load into the tube as there might be some dressing-up or possibly also understating of facts in the factory literature?
Thank you for your comments.
Bootsie

[Henry4440]

Hallo Bootsie.
To 1:
When i read in my book: The Historic Henry Rifle.....by Wiley Sword, i found this:
...On Nov.25,1862 Oliver Winchester admitted they made a mistake in  not developing a stronger cartridge.The use of a longer cartridge with more powder and hence more penetration had long been considered.Yet it would reducedthe capacity of the magazine to about 13 or 14 cartridges versus the present 15, and would have added length and weight to the frame.
In No. 1862 O.Winchester had requested Smith & Wesson,the Volcanic's old partner, to supply 100 special .44 cal. cartridges,which were longer and fitted with larger bullet.
On June 12,1863 O.W. wrote to Commissioners Joel Hayden,Col.Will.R.Lee amd Col.J.Kurtz about his proposal to make a cavalry model ( short barrel),or a picket-size and a sentry-size Henry(longer barrel).Winchester stated he would even be willing to make a cal.50 Henry with a 30-inch barrel.
On Nov.27,1863 O.Winchester offered a formal proposal to Asst.SecretaryWatson:
1. 40,000 Henry carabines made at Colt's for $26
2. 20,000 Henry carabines made at Colt's for $27
3. 10,000 Henry carabines made at Bridgeport for $28
All carabines would be of the usual cavalry length barrel and would carry a longer .44 cartridge( case 1 3/5 inches) with 30 grains of powder.
On Aug. 26,1864 Lieutenant Stockton tested a Henry carabine,using a .44 cartridge containing 36 grains powder and a ball weighing 324 grains.
So that's all i know.Oh by the way.I have two of these books, so......
To 2:
In my Henry Lincoln i can load 13+1 in cal. 44-40.
Uberti said 12+1

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I may be all wet on this, but I think there may have been 2 separate length 44 rimfire cartridges that were used in the Henry.

Here are 2 photos of some cartridges in my small cartridge collection. In this first photo, the copper cased cartridge all the way on the left is a 44 Henry Rimfire cartridge. I'm pretty sure this is the one known as the 44 Henry Flat, with it's flat nosed bullet. I took this photo for comparitive purposes, and the cartridges are from left to right, the 44 Henry, 44 Special, 44-40, adn 45 Colt:



Here is a photo of another 44 caliber rimfire cartridge in my collection. When I bought it I was told it too was a 44 Henry cartridge. I have placed it between a 44-40 and 45 Colt, for comparitive purposes. This cartridge is considerably longer than the other 44 Rimfire round, both in Over All Length, and in case length alone:



Sorry, I don't have a photo handy comparing the two rounds directly.

I may be incorrect, I'm pretty sure the shorter round is an authentic Henry round, I'm not so sure about the longer one, but if it is, it may have something to do with magazine capacity.

[Advertising]

[Tuolumne Lawman]

The longer rifire in the second picture is NOT a Henry round.  It is a .44 Long Rimfire, and may be the round used by early Spencer .44 caliber models.  It was also use in some single shots/  I will have to check my cartridges of the world again.

The round nose early 44 Henry has a shorter case and a 215 grain bullet and 25 grains of powder.  The 44 Henry flat (in your first picture) has a slightly longer case, but shorter 200 grain bullet and 28 grains of BP. Both had the same OAL.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Here is a picture I took for an article.  The 2 cartridges on the left are early 215 grain Henry rounds, the middle is a modern .45 Schofield with a 200 grain bullet and 28 grains FFG, and the 3 on the right are later .44 Hernry flat.

[stepnmud]

Here's the gif from T.L.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=12235.0;attach=9050;image

and have it on my guncart ammo box. Sounds like 15+1 

 Shot a recent CAS match stage that you had to shoot 22 rounds with any guns ya wanted, like shotgun and/or pistol or rifle any combination you wanted,but wouldn't let me load more than ten max. in rifle.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I have gone back using to a 44-40 Henry now, because it seals BP loads better than .45 Colt or Schofield.  I can shoot BP loads indefinitely in 44-40.  It holds 13+1.

I used to use a 45 Colt Henry.  It held 14+1 of Schofields with 200 grain bullets.  It held 15+1 of 180 grain bullets, but the 180s were too short to cycle without modifying the lifter.  With BP, I had bad blowback with the Schofield loads.

[Henry4440]

Here is a picture I took for an article.  The 2 cartridges on the left are early 215 grain Henry rounds, the middle is a modern .45 Schofield with a 200 grain bullet and 28 grains FFG, and the 3 on the right are later .44 Hernry flat.

A question from a unknowing German.
Where did you get the  pic of your cartridge-box?
Selfmade?

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Wie ghet's!

I habe aus ein anderer Cowboy emphangen, vielleicht vor zwolfe jahr?

Enschuldiget, mein Deutsch is nicht gut.  I habe nicht fur sehr viel jahr gesprochen (35 jahr).

Well, I guess I butchered that.  I got mine about a dozen years ago.  I am getting nready to make some color copies up from my master.  Would you like some?  I don't have a JPEG

[Henry4440]

Wie ghet's!

I habe aus ein anderer Cowboy emphangen, vielleicht vor zwolfe jahr?

Enschuldiget, mein Deutsch is nicht gut.  I habe nicht fur sehr viel jahr gesprochen (35 jahr).

Well, I guess I butchered that.  I got mine about a dozen years ago.  I am getting nready to make some color copies up from my master.  Would you like some?  I don't have a JPEG

Where did you learn German?
And,Yip i would take some.
 

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Mein Grossvater war aus Oesterriech und Meine Grossmutter war aus Alsace Lorraine.  I am half German/Austrian, grew up in the midwest around lots of Germans. 

Took highschool German 1970-74.  It helps that my German teacher was a gorgeous 23 year old blond girl from Vienna! All of us boys paid close attention to her! Sie eine sehr schon und freundlich Fraulein war!

I have only occasionaly had reason to use it when I was a Sheriff's detective.  We would have tourists from German and Austria , etc. who spoke little English.  I was a Police Officer and Deputy Sheriff for 20 years. Once I was investigating a homocide, and the only witnesses "war von Munchen"  Between my terrible German and the little English they spoke, we got along well.  I apologize for my bad grammar!

I have been to Europe several times, but never made Germany or Austria. I will be visiting Vienna in April, however, with a school group (Ich bin ein Hoch Schule Geschichte Lehrer).  I am excited to go.

Email me a mailing address and I will send you a sheet with three labels on it.  I use reproduction cartridge boxes from Cheyenne Pioneer Products, and paste the labels over the top.

Auf wieder sehen!

 

[Coffinmaker]

I've worked up a dandy little cartridge for my Henry rifles.  Mine are all .45s and there were some difficulties with the magazine capacity of my 16 inch Trapper.  Only held 8.  Bummer.  Went to Schofield cases.  Held 9.  Still a Bummer.  Cut some 45 Schofield cases to the same length as .44 Russian and modified the carrier block to feed.  Holds 10!!!  Perfect.
Then I discovered my standard length Henry(s) with the modified carrier held 16+1.  My thought is the original Henry rifle probably held 15+1 with a 24 inch barrel.  Henry carbines had 20 inch barrels.
All of the literature I have found for the Henry rifle has referenced a 15 round magazine capacity and the original .44 Henry Flat was just slightly longer overall than .44 Russian.
Fun part is, I shoot a round that is real close to the actual cartridge size of the original Henry and I can stuff a whole bunch of them in the magazine and create a "shower" of empty cases.
THE original "Assault" rifle.  Loads on Sunday and Shoots ALL Week!!

Coffinmaker

[Driftwood Johnson]

T.L.

Thanks for setting me staight on that longer copper cased round.

[Long Johns Wolf]

Thank you for your comments, fellow Henry aficiondos, from the German campfire.
This clarifies the magazine capacity issue of the rifle with 24,5" barrel. We are agreeing it holds 15 rounds of Henry flat (+ 1 in the chamber).
Bootsie

[stepnmud]

I'm wondering and haven't tried yet, but to get sixty rounds off in a minute as advertized on the promo sheet. Could have 16 rounds in the rifle then top load the rest, single shot style or refill the magazine several times to get off sixty rounds in a minute.

[Long Johns Wolf]

How about a little long distance competition? You set the rules and let's repeat history. But it should be warmer outside like April...
In addition I plan to be in the Houston/Columbus area early October and plan to bring my 15 +1 shooter steel Henry.
Bootsie

[stepnmud]

Sounds like a neat plan, Bootsie. Although I feel like I'd have home field advantage,
 being as I shoot the monthly matches at THSS by Columbus, not all that good,but shoot anyways.Should have my Henry back from Happy Trails in a few weeks after modified to shoot 44 Russians and can load 15+1. Hope to run in to ya .

[Long Johns Wolf]

Have been at your range in April 2003 if I recall rightly. Impressive set. I am planning to shoot on the other side of 10 at Eagle Lake. Hey, its all about fun, no competition stress. I'll x fingers that your .44 Russian Happy Trails conversion meets your expectation. I am happy with mine in .44 Colt.
Bootsie